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Buddhism and Daoism come from different traditions but they have historically mixed symbiotically especially in China - so there exist what you might call hybrid systems - although I don't really buy that term I'll use it anyway - like Ch'an/Zen for instance which is Daoist influenced Buddhism. Obviously Buddhism originated in ancient India from the sramana tradition - sramanas being wandering mystics for whom the sage-king was the ideal - other traditions emerged from here also such as Jainism (which has some similarities to Buddhism). The Buddha's main stress and indeed starting point was the individual's experience of life and how the cyclical world (samasara) was a projection arising through ignorance and desire. So the remedy lay in taming the mind by removing ignorance and cutting through our grasping at things. Mind here is usually 'citta' as in 'bodhicitta' = awakened mind and does not mean our thoughts as such but the basis of awareness - or indeed the 'substance' in which awareness/perception arises. Closer perhaps to the word consciousness as mentioned above - although there are technical difficulties with this also I think. It is hard to say exactly when Daoism arose - as although Lao Tzu's Daodejing was written about 500 BC it is not necessarily a foundational text and older classics such as the Yijing contain at least proto-Daoist ideas. What most people in the West focus on is the Daoist techniques of energy working such as qigong and inner alchemy (neidan). These arose out of Chinese medicine and martial arts. As Daoism is in a sense realist as the dao itself, heaven and earth, yin/yang and so forth as considered 'real' and not mental projections it does not have the same basis as Buddhism. However as I said above there has been so much cross cultural influence historically that some schools a can sound almost indistinguishable. It is also more or less certain that Neidan influenced the development of Buddhist tantra - even though tantra itself is an Indian approach developed from secret clan and kaula tantras in both 'Hindu' and Buddhist sects. The goal of Buddhism is to become a Buddha (or Arhat) and thus awakened in the sense that Buddha meant it. The goal of Daoist neidan is immortality (which may be understood as physical or spiritual) - and unlike Buddhism there is always a sense of harmony with something beyond ourselves, rather than mind awakening. You should follow whatever system you have a strong connection to - which is what you have to decide I guess

Since the Lord of Death has informed a venerable DBs member of our impending doom by giving all non Asian Daobums a good arse kicking, I am offering these steel underpants, for one week only, at a special rate. Made from good quality Port Kembla Aussie steel, with reinforcing around the arse area. Dont be caught out ! Order one today !

Very, very true. Yet, sometimes you throw out some seeds. Jesus said, "Look, the sower went out, took a handful (of seeds), and scattered (them). Some fell on the road, and the birds came and gathered them. Others fell on rock, and they didn't take root in the soil and didn't produce heads of grain. Others fell on thorns, and they choked the seeds and worms ate them. And others fell on good soil, and it produced a good crop: it yielded sixty per measure and one hundred twenty per measure."

Best approach might be to quietly be. The sun doesn't go to people to illuminate. An awakened one will enlighten just by being.

imho there are two aspects to awakening. One is the direct experience beyond the mind (Aparoksha jnana or Paurusha Jnana). The other is the assimilation of said awakening in an intellectual/mental framework (paroksha jnana or bauddha jnana). One without the other is incomplete. Lineages come into play here. They might first lead to Direct experience via psychosomatic/energetic work and subsequently the "how, what where's" become apparent by studying/introspecting/meditating (e.g. Daoism, Kashmir Shaivism, Vajrachara). The other approach is also possible with presentation of the framework first through which one seeks understanding and clarity, progressively peeling away the onion until they are left with the core/kernel (e.g. Advaita Vedanta, Zen Buddhism etc). IMHO, it possible for someone who has awakened to cross lineages (drop or adopt one or another)? I think many awakened masters do exactly that. Ramana Maharshi is an example. He spontaneously awakened and then through the period that he held a body, he taught via various means (Advaita vedanta, Shaiva siddhantas, Tantra, etc).

This has been more of the "experience" here: (quoted)......and because of that i do not like the true awakening talk. Awareness of Presence or "Transcendental Consciousness" is the experience of expanded alert awareness along with profound peace and silence, either in the environment in activity, or deep within during silent meditation. There can be the feeling of detachment from the body/mind. It is a fourth definite state of consciousness unlike waking, dream or sleep. It is a precursor to the actual shift to Self-remembrance. Transcendental Consciousness is being awake to the silent peace and stillness that is the true nature of the Self. There can be many degrees of intensity and various levels of witnessing in trancendental consciousness, but the clear recognition by the Self of the Self has not yet occurred. There are millions of people around the world today experiencing varying degrees of presence consciousness.  States of Consciousness 'States of Consciousness' does not mean states of individual consciousness. It means states of Consciousness itself. Consciousness itself is an unbounded field of pure Awareness. There are distinct perspectivess of Consciousness of itself as it becomes more awake its total reality, and there are many levels of clarity of refined perception within each state. These states cannot be missed. Experience, knowledge, perception and reality are completely different in each, even though Consiousness always remains the same One Consciousness. Cosmic Consciousness or "Self Realization" is awakening to being Pure Consciousness itself. It is the first stage of Enlightenment. It is a very profound shift in your sense of being and existing, the sense of who you are. The sense of Self shifts from being the person you think you are, to being the unbounded field of Awareness itself in which the person and all perceptions exist. You discover that there is no separate individual sense of self at all. The separate individual self was an illusion that happened as a result of conditioning and the false identification with the individual body/mind. Your real Self has always been unbounded, infinite and free all along.  It is not an altered state of Consciousness. It is Being Consciousness Itself -- what you really have always been. It is not a temporary experience; it is a natural, permanent state of being. The innermost self awakens to the unboundedness of its Self and finds itself to be the silent source of everything everywhere. Even though this feels like the final step and there is nowhere else to go, it is actually only the first step in the unfoldment of Consciousness to itself.  Refined Perception in Cosmic Consciousness or "God Realization" is Consciousness' refined perception of its nature as the process of experiencing. It is the perception of the flow of divine intelligence responsible for all experience. The underlying mechanics of the process of creation is revealed. It is the experience of the flow of intelligence responsible for all thinking, feeling, perceiving, experiencing, and all form and phenomena everywhere in your entire field of perception. The cosmic dimension of the individual mind/body is revealed. It is a continually deepening process of refinement and unfoldment taking place perpetually within Consciousness, though experienced differently in each state. The shift to unity Consciousness and beyond can happen prior to the full unfoldment of the depth of experience of refined perception. Unity Consciousness or "Oneness" happens when the Self, the subject and unbounded underlying essence of all things, awakens to itself as being the objects and phenomena of experience on the surface of life. It is a transition from being the unbounded field in which everything thing is happening , to being everything everywhere in the range of perception and experience. "Consciousness is everything everywhere, and I am that Consciousness". The unbounded subject has remembered itself to also be all objects of perception. They are One. The unboundedness of the Self has entered into the mind, body, and environment. All objects in the surroundings, while remaining the same from the perspective of the senses, are experienced as my Self. The world is no longer an object in Consciousness. It is Consciousness itself. It is my Self. It is the oneness of experiencer, process of experiencing and objects of experience. All of the apparent boundaries in the world are found to be my own Consciousness in appearance. From this perspective, the world is experienced to be even more real, because it is constructed out of the material of Consciousness itself, out of my own unbounded Self. The environment is now seen as pure unmodified Consciousness in the guise of the objective modifications of body, world and universe. It is not that the world and universe are seen to be an illusion. The illusion is that the world and universe is an objcetive physical reality. It has always been Consciousness itself, my own Self, pure subjectivity. There is no longer any distinction between inner or outer. The outer is the inner, the inner is the outer. Everything everywhere is my Self. "I" am all that there is. Refined Perception Within Unity Consciousness or "Unity in God Consciousness" is a further refinement of perception from the perspective of being everything. Consciousness awakens, with further clarity, to the underlying mechanics of creation and experience. It awakens to the subtle mechanics of its own innate intelligence that is responsible for creating the appearance of all life everywhere. It is the same shift in perception mentioned above, to experiencing the refined cosmic dimension of the feelings, intellect, mind, body, personality, senses, and all objects of experience; but it is experienced from an entirely different perspective now, one of wholeness, of being all that is. It is experiencing the flow of finer flavours and layers of intelligence within the wholeness of Self. It is Consciousness awakening to its internal dynamics as the perpetual flow of itself experiencing itself. It is the experience of the ultimate reality of the depth of the Self, the totality of Consciousness, and it is all Divine.  Beyond Consciousness or "Brahman Consciousness" is a perspective prior to Consciousness, prior to Intelligence and prior to existence itself. It is neither Self nor non-Self, neither Existence nor non-Existence, neither Being nor non-Being, neither Consciousness nor non-Consciousness. It is the clearest experience of Reality. Words like universe, multi-verse, Absolute, Totality, Self, God, Being, Presence, Pure Consciousness cannot touch it. It is beyond description. It is pure Nothingness. From this perspective; the body/mind, the world and the universe are not just an illusion, they have never even come into existence. The ultimate reality of something made from nothing, is nothing, not something. The word "nothing" does not do justice to the supreme peace, perfect equanimity, unlimited freedom and total knowledge that It is. It is truly indescribable. It is exclusively self-evident to itself alone.  Refined Perception Beyond Consciousness or "Refined Brahman Consciousness" is a completely different perspective of the same refinement of perception that is perpetually happening in Consciousness. But, because it is prior to Consciousness itself, there is no perceiver, no perceiving and no perceptio in the same sense. It is perpetually swelling in all the same divine flavours and qualities of wholeness and love as experienced previously, only in a finer more exquisite delicacy and fullness, prior to differentiation or distinction. It is the subtle intentention within nothingness to know itself. It is Pure Divine Power. From this perspective, the effect--Consciousness itself, and the creative intelligence inherent in Consciousness which is responsible for the appearance of creation, is also uncaused; and as such, so too is all creation. It is beyond all understanding. Supreme Reality Another shift to an even deeper perspective occurs in this state when that Nothingness recognizes that divine power as its own pure Supreme Divinity that has been cloaked in the appearance of creation. That supreme divinity is the ultimate cause of all causes. It creates and appears as the sense of Being, Consciousness or Self; all divine creative intelligence, and all creation. It is pure divine radience. Refinement of perception of the universal body/mind continues in this state.

My linage is a new one only 700 years unbroken. When a practitioner becomes more realized the ancient text become very clear they are describing experience and the underling building blocks of the universe. It is like the first time we read the DDJ and when we read it again many years later we have a better understanding exceptionally when the principles are learned physically. The communication of body and mind is feeling not word format. When philosophy does not have any applications it is just mind clutter and worthless. How do we apply what is true into everyday activities when self and art becomes one. we realize the same principles apply to every field and skill set. I am not going to build someone a house I have zero hours in house building. I could build a crude structure for survival based on the WAY things work.

@freeform wow, sounds like quite a night it turned out to be! Just love it when this sort of stuff happens, i’ve had a couple less dramatic ones and witnessed one similar thing a guy i had no idea was ”packing” sensitivity. I can feel it when something is about to happen from the shift in energy/mood/smell and i can definetly tell when someone with some juice is involved, i feel something turn in me towards it like a compass needle. Weird. I have a few of similar stories... I remeber talking a 40 something oddball straight, he crashed an afterparty at my old place where i lived with my ex and was not doing much to brighten the mood. He was stone cold sober and brooding, an acquaintance of an acquaintance, i never got his name but he was an obvious loose cannon. Something compelled me to talk to the man, i was going to throw him out when i approached him but i felt like a warm shower of a bubbly liquid, like fizzy water, running over me from head to toes, just faintly but it was there and i change my whole approach, within a minute he’s talking to me about his cocaine addiction, how he’s friends with a bunch of stick up kids half his age who run around with guns and make all sorts of messes and that he’s come to a point of considering suicide because he thinks his road is set too deep. All the while i’m listening and just ripping the guys excuses and negative outlook to pieces, not being kind either but having this fatherly warmth in my voice (where’d that come from?) and telling him he should pick up music, like just hitting keys and see what comes out. Reading this guy beforehand i’d never approach him like that, he was armed and he was definetly carrying product, i think he’d plan to sell some powders at our place but he never got the chance to even float the idea. He just looked at me dismantle every idea of helplessness he held on to and when i said ”sit down and hit some keys, improvise” he just went pale and asked how i knew he’d been trying to get back into music forever but he was terrified of what could happen, since he had nothing to loose now he was scared he’d get his hopes up. I casually told him that was bullshit, that he was clinging to his fears as if they were reality and he just went silent, nodding. We sat like that in silence while everyone else seemed to just merry on about and not even noticing us. He stood up, offered his hand and a long hug and said to me he was going home to fire up his keyboard, very seriously thanked me for letting him stay a while, waved goodbye to everyone with a big smile and just left. This happened during a period of daily inward practice and i realized only after we’d been sitting right across from my altar to Guan Gong, he’d been staring at it on and off while talking to me. I dont think it was a coincidence. Another time my ex walked in on a burglar who’d decided not to take anything except a minor amount of cash and a pocket knife (he returned both) when he entered that same room where the altar stood, he said he’d realized it would be so mean and callous to steal our computers because we used them for work (he hadn’t opened them) and he was crying while i scolded him and told him he was being reckless and an idiot, he could get hurt walking into peoples homes. He was on his knees begging for forgiveness and promised to tell all of his junkie friends to leave our courtyard alone (it was one of those summers when a lot of down and out folks were looking for stuff to pinch and sell, our yard was easily accessed and it had become a problem with these ”visitors” messing about) and i took his info from his ID (he actually handed it to me) as security. Then he left, thanking me and promising to make good on his word. Oddly enough, not a single incident happened the following years until i moved out after separating and took my altar with me. Nowadays it’s becoming a frequent spot for trespassing and disturbances again. I cant say it’s this or that but i strongly believe the altar and my routine of practice in that period directly affected these incidents. It’s not like huge deals, no fireballs or telekinetic wizard fighting, but two different unrelated occasions with uninvited criminals that were deeply affected by being there and i remember acting spontaneously, not a premeditated word or action and it all just fell into place. To me it’s odd at least, but i don’t look gifted horses in their mouth with such things

It is interesting to read and listen to Awakened teachers that have come from a long established lineage as well as teachers that have Awakened and then adopted a long established lineage as their teaching. It is also interesting to see Awakened teachers using their own words from the present and often changing the typical fashion of going about helping students to be pointed in practice and general sniffing around trying to get a clue what this “illusion” thing is all about. There is no question that there are benefits to a great well established lineage. And it is very possible for an Awakened teacher to adopt a lineage in which they have no prior base. But I am acutely aware that many of the past lineages of the very best and most productive sorts have wording and dogma that make it nearly impossible to clarify in a new students mind even the slightest whiff of what they are actually alluding to and teaching. Some of the most refreshing and superb Awakened teachers are uncompromisingly direct and clarify the “project” of Awakening so simply and so well that by comparison many extraordinary old lineages appear to actually create more detours than road maps by entailing incalculable destinations and using words and structures of teaching that are basically misleading by their vary exactness. I am not starting this topic with any objection - it is a remembrance that when I Awoke the experience was so utterly and completely unlike anything I had read anywhere in the great ancient traditions that I was completely unsure of what had transpired. And it is in this remembrance that this topic is created. I am from the “long” traditions - lots of practice and the idea that perhaps in ten lifetimes you might Awaken - they are in many ways as perfect as they are full of bullshit. Yet some of the emerging short forms - particularly those engineering quick Awakening are also very questionable. But some new teachings are very clear and offer real lasting abiding Awakening from simple yet strong well worded contemporary guidance. What cannot be expressed very clearly to many reading this is that once Awakened some stupidly simple teachings are clearly seen to be among the very best teachings to Awaken and some of the most superb and complex lineages make it nearly impossible to see the Forrest through the trees. Some seemingly very simple Awakened teachers are unquestionably the best pointers to truth and best practices for Awakening to Self, while some of the most authoritative Awakened teachers from some of the oldest and finest lineages are simply so immersed in initiations and transmissions and proper progress that they have put the cart before the horse to a great extent - as though teaching post Awakening work is best done prior to Awakening. It is tempting to utilize an old and wonderful lineage as an Awakened person considering or being brought into teaching - everything is already laid out and easily tweaked where one would like and students can plug into the tradition. It can also radically slow further progress in one’s post Awakened unfolding. And deep within one Awakened can wonder if teaching is what will be happening if at all. I also partly bring this up because of how brutally some “advanced” seekers judge “simple teachers” who are often obviously to those Awake of the highest attainment and often speak little from any lineage at all.

Nicely put. I see the two traditions as being very compatible at the deepest levels. Although I have met many Buddhist monks and practitioners throughout the world, one of the most memorable experiences was a three-hour meeting with a Taoist master in Chengdu (China) which was conducted in complete and utter silence. It was one of the most illuminating connections I have ever experienced.

I have read that the standard philosophical position is that the subjective is self-proving ( I think... therefore I am) I agree with that , believe it to be self evident and undeniably "just as real" as physical manifestation ( how else could my ideas help my car navigate a road ? or an I phone function? ) On the other hand , the physical is proven to be just as real as the mental , because independent of opinion, we are forced to yield where the road ends. But the two do not mesh , in the sense that dreaming of unicorns, makes them objectively physical. That's why I defined real such as I do. It works out well to look at it this way.

I thought a reposting of the original post might be helpful. what interests me is the wording I have no doubt that a teacher can use an existing lineage that is or is not his/her original - and certainly many such as Ramana utilized several lineages and teachings that worked in the present. The voice of words is more the interest- not “pretty” language but generally in the little things: We had another person here who Awoke - I cant say for sure but I think it was Dawg - many liked what he wrote which is great and we can still pull some of it up here. He used Conscious and Subconscious as primary words in his teaching. It was very well done and clear to me what he was saying - but it was also clear to me that those words we incredibly poor choices for conveying what he was saying to those as yet Un-Awakened. Stillness is a beautiful concept but in most teaching it conveys to the reader something quite different than what is trying to be conveyed. It is a very good word as is Silence but both are equally misunderstood by the lay reader or monk or mystic in general prior to Awakening. It is with this in mind that what is quite refreshing and effective is the utilization of newness in contemporary teachers. Not for the sake of newness or being original - but simply taking a bit of time to remember just how much they were so far off in the experience of coming to abide in Self and the prior concepts that they had formulated and often walled themselves in further with. There are no accounts that I am aware of (in this now) where the Awoken later expresses how it was even remotely how they thought it would be. And very very very very frequently they report a sort of astonishing but very disorienting experience. Assume whatever you wish regarding whether you think I am Awake or deluded - that’s fine. And it is true that some words and teachings work for some while others require something else - and some simply need religion and faith. It still remains and perhaps it always will remain that the pointings will be many miles from the mark - but this does not appear to be the case - as quite a few new teachers are pointing with new words and approaches and they are speaking more clearly and the results are at far greater levels than we have seen in centuries and perhaps all of known history - though this new efficacy is being seen everywhere in a true teachings. Again - you may think I’m nuts - and for those that need to argue that please just let us be here. For those that completely understand what I am saying and for those interested, I am interested in discussion on this.

I agree it is possible as well, just debating some details about it is all with Spotless.

Thank you Spotless, Our understanding of what Awakening is, is very different. I also don't think Adyashanti is enlightened or awakened or can even come close to what is being described. Kind of helps to explain our differences in view. All the best

Got my Natto-Serra from doctor's best. The effect was intense, I felt cold, light and my body was pulsating all over. I also felt like it was doing something to my joints. Powerful stuff, will keep posting what happens. I also felt sharp sensations in my brain/head, this supplement really does something.

Being from the complete reality school the three teaching are as one. The main drive of Chinese Buddhism is Taoist in origin. Taoist never had a written system like Buddhism so the structure of a formal religion written and not only passed on orally was exciting. A lot of classics we have now are do to the influence of a structured system but still very much Taoist. Chan Buddhism or Zen in japan is even more connected to Taoist thought. As the teachings left the origin and traveled to other countries and cultures it became embedded with local flavor. If it ended up in a all male situation the female alchemy was dropped or alchemy in general was not taught at all. It is fun to play with the flower and appreciate its beauty but even better are the seeds they have all the information on becoming a flower.

Adyashanti is among several who have related this - that they can and have but now rarely Awaken someone by touch or direct transmission any longer - you may not consider him Awake or of a high enough level - but even so - the change is simply NOT what your findings and studies would lead you to believe - until it occurs - and then you will see how disorienting it can be - and how far from the words and concepts the experience is. And so in the group setting you have spoken of several times - a teacher would appear to need to know the group relatively quite well but it appears you were wondering if a teacher might just get them together and take them “there”. Actually - you have a very solid concept- and all in all it is very good - yet light years from actual understanding. Such a beautiful passage - it can be taken in so many ways. It has been a bit sideways but the conversation has been interesting and if it were to be kept entirely on Target I would have done this as a personal folder and related to you privately. Thank you for participating in earnest. Awakening is not something that is a physical object - nor is it a mind space- it is extremely easy to read vast amounts of literature on this and meditate for years and abtain to a considerable degree and believe in all sorts of things well founded in one’s discoveries and machinations. It is extremely possible to become quite lost in all of this and appear quite lost, possibly misguided, completely nuts and institutionalized. It also happens that some that have actually Awoken and came to Abide in a beautiful and very full Awakened Presence have been institutionalized for a time in the beginning - because of the disorienting and unrecognizable “new” state of Beingness. Even in many cases wherein the experience was beautiful and the person was not a threat to himself or anyone else - they were just bewildered and in many cases simply contacting normal channels in order to understand why they were suddenly and for so long completely without compunction to DO and had lost all interest in many of their previous passions.

I would agree. I have talked to people that experienced quite mind, the gap between thoughts and thought they experienced emptiness.. it scared the heck out of them. I know others who have gone into the gap since childhood but think that is it. Nothing more beyond that Pure Presence it was coined to me. People that have experienced silence that was mind numbing along with an expansive feeling and thought they had realized the Self. I have talked to people who think they are Gods, fight demons and have cupid sons in the astral plane.. Know a lot of people that experience mindfulness in daily life and think they are enlightened. Know others that can transmit energy that can be felt by others and think they are master. Lot's of traps, dead ends and fear.

Maybe the fear comes after?

The physical arts are all very interesting. In Beijing was introduced to a noted teacher of the style although never practiced it, had I not found taiji many yrs ago it would have been something I would have been interested in exploring on many levels. I did find this interesting in the notes under the clip relative to the thread. "In the 1960's it became nicknamed as Shaolin Rouquan (Soft Boxing) which this name also prevailed in 1980's when Shaolin was trying to re-construct its lost arts. Today it is also known as Chanmen Taijiquan (Zen Style Taijiquan) or sometimes as Fomen Taijiquan (Buddhist Style Taijiquan)."

Thank you, I was thinking of things like this.

Or neither. It's quite conceivable that the many paradoxes in the interpretation of quantum mechanics derive from our continued use of the inappropriate concepts of "wave" and "particle". The micro-world could very well consist of something else that sometimes manifests as waves and sometimes as particles.

Hi there! I've been on this site off/on for awhile, but now that I'm getting back into Flying Phoenix Chi Kung I see that some of these forum threads are private now? Is there a way I can access these forum posts now again? I would to read these valuable threads if possible please?! Thank you!

I’d say it’s not the “‘mind” but rather pure consciousness. Mind implies a steam of thoughts/objects.

The sage walks freely Like a man gliding on ice With shoulders relaxed

In the garden of eden. The dude was a little drunk writing the song so when he told the band about the new song he was writing his speech was a bit slurred. They decided to keep Gadda da vida as the title, because it is funny. Drunken kung fu covers this song on day one with an amazing teacher that no one would dare challenge because skill is obvious.

i meant this one:

makes me long for Tony Blair and that is saying something

Jeremy Corbyn is giving a speech about why he won't talk with May. Honestly - twat - there I said it

Some people think so...

Tnat's pretty much it. End of discussion. Note: Deep down (at the very end) Taoism and Buddhism will converge at one point. To sum up: Taoism ----> mechanism of Yin & Yang (energy) Buddhism ----> mechanism of the Mind (mind) But ultimately the Mind is the source of everything including the Yin & Yang.

Welcome to Greater Norway.

I was out running today and happened to bump into The Lord of Death himself. Not a pleasant guy. Told me he's going to enter the dreams of people on the Dao Bums forum and kick their non-asian asses. I kept on running.

Nothing wrong with Boolean logic, the internet wouldn't even exist without it. But what is wrong is creating false dilemmas. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma Now ironically this topic itself is based on a false dilemma. The reasoning goes thus: 1. We cannot be absolutely sure about anything, because we might just be dreaming. (Which is true.) But: 2. We either (a) know something or (b) we know nothing at all and would do better to do away with the very idea of knowing something. Now as it isn't (a) it has to be (b): 3. We know nothing at all and would do better to do away with the very idea of knowing something. The error here hides in the (implicit) use of a false dilemma in 2. Absolute knowledge is a favourite subject for philosophers and a dead serious illusion for religious fanatics, but everyday life, common sense and science don't need it. Provisional knowledge is good enough. So the fact that we haven't got absolute knowledge is actually irrelevant.

Uni-MInd?

Hi, Good systems are internally consistent and use terminology and some more subtle ways of communicating in a way that adds up to whatever the goal of that system is. If you mix systems you can get confused by overt and subtle differences which might impede progress. Having said that if you yourself are clear about what you are doing it is perfectly possible to study different systems and learn from them all. It all depends on whether you want to do the work and have clear enough understanding to do this. For many its not a great idea 'cos you can end up with a mush which doesn't really work. I don't think its about dogma as such but more consistency and application. Of course you must make your own mind up about this.

My answer is with the assumption that you are asking me if an Awakened teacher that does not have a lineage as you have mentioned above can - in my view - take on a lineage with the power and Grace expressed above. Yes - but - it is not necessarily the case. If one is actually Awake and abiding in Divine Essence - and they were moved to adopt such a lineage - the chances are quite high that none of what was mentioned would be a problem in the least. This is entirely in the makeup of what is manifest in that teacher. For some seekers very little guidance is needed and for some close proximity to a teacher is needed - for many a teacher and considerable guidance is needed. Some teachers will not be inclined to open transmission and in fact you might sit right next to them and not feel much at all - unless they open. And even then - the student awakens when it’s time and the teacher does nothing other than reside in Presence. Some teachers are inclined to a very wide variety of happenings and institutions spring up around them. Some teachings are very trance oriented and some teachers don’t trance at all and would not teach trance. Grace is over thought by students - we are all in Grace - yet wilfully sidestep it in the illusion. Grace dawns upon Awakening. Many aspects of Abiding Awakening appear to be Enlightenment while they are quite early on aspects of settled Awakened being. Even many absurdly “high” levels appear to be aspects of a settled abiding Presence. One does not have to be “Enlightened” in order to be at many levels assumed to be reserved only for those at Enlightenment. And then one can argue - or bring up the question - is there such state in its entirety or is it also and ongoing expansion. It is safe to say at some point one has entered Enlightenment - when one knows nothing it would be difficult to say what that would be.

In a full Awakening suffering ends. This does not mean either Enlightenment nor the end of work or change or hardship - suffering is the result of attachment/willfulness and when it ceases then even residual “attachment” is un-attached - one does not meander into futures and worry and extrapolations and mind loops and willfulness. (Though this does vary - certainly upon the level of Abidance - many waver considerably in the beginning years - particularly those that have been assisted and or engineered). You state above: ”To me, this awakening is just the start of the journey. Long ways to go afterwards. The challenges after the so called awakenings are much higher than before. One needs to let go and keep expanding to cope up with them. When they resist to let go, they suffer. Divine guidance is essential after the awakening.” I have not been speaking of “Awakenings” - that is a relative perspective and has nothing to do with actual Awakening. In the quote above it is not spoken from an Awakened state /Self. The push of willfulness to do, seek, improve has disappeared - not hidden - it is no longer. Divine Guidance/ Grace becomes one’s happening. Residuals of patterned “doing” and willfulness may still be found here and there - in fact in my experience so much was gone that it was surprising sometimes when things would emerge still patterned - but with very little to zero attachment to the experiencing of it. As an example - about two years ago someone stole around $10,000 from me. I was unaware that I could still become so angry - yet the anger did not linger long but it would come back when I saw or met with the person. It was a process that I watched over a considerable time. In another instance I found out I still had some automated negative feeling toward my father - but they had almost no energy on them. Then one day - I found out that all residual patterns toward my father had vanished entirely. I was not willfully surrendering, not “letting go” as in a “doing”. Far more often I am overcome with Gratitude and must in many cases sit or pull over the car or walk to solitude. Once when driving I pulled over and my wife asked what was up and I explained I could no longer drive and needed to close my eyes - not because of tiredness - the energies were incredible and the eyes became faucets. I have had meditation sessions where after getting up I have long streaks of white going down from my eyes - when I pushed on them they cracked - it was dried salt crystallized in tear streams. In the abiding Awakened /Self Divine Guidance is realized. It is what one is. The compunction to do ceases - it is a transition to happening - unimpeded intuitive presence. Movement in perfection. Imperfection is perfect - trying to bend it to one’s will has ceased. Constant attempts to push one’s projections as a square peg into a round hole is over. But the constant expansion is devastatingly immense - it nearly drops one to one’s knees and it does not stop at least it has not for some six years and shows no sign of letting up. I do nothing - some faint portion somewhat expects doing to resume - yet no doing is taking place - happening is taking place - Presence. I practice Qi Gong - my “students” practice with me though it appears I am also teaching Qi Gong. Constantly the subtle bodies expand and faint residuals fall away. I would agree “work” continues - in Awakening there is no doing in the “work”. And it certainly is possible to appear to go backwards or in fact go backwards or simply appear to be somewhat static in residual patterns.

An extraordinarily subtle point 😎

Thanks for this thread - very interesting read. It made me think of this: So even Jesus who was not exactly the most popular with the priesthood - fulfilled the law - which I take to mean he fulfilled the lineage. In other words he correctly understood and embodied what the lineage teachings were talking about - while the priests had fallen into ritual observance (they may of course understood some of it but not all of it or indeed the central purpose). I would also add that although it is true that realisation or awakening can be understood as living in the present moment in awareness of the true nature of reality - here and now - it is also true to say that we each carry a long history. A personal lineage if you like in our bodies or perhaps in our beings. So there is a sense of fulfilment of an ancient purpose in our work.

This is a concern - but for one who has Awoke it is not. But - it is certainly possible to believe one has awoken who has not. Precisely why wording is so important. If one has not awoken it is generally easily argued that it is a mind set or mind shift or mind mapping of some sort - it is very very clearly not. It is extremely possible and quite often the case that one opens into Unity Consciousness or Oneness and thinks they have attained Awakening - precisely because it entails many of the elements and feelings - and it can and does often take place somewhat gradually or even very gradually. For those that first open into Unity Consciousness and then Awaken the reports are consistent in that in Awakening a great deal more fell away that they had thought they had already moved beyond. It is generally quite easy to see someone speaking from Unity/Oneness who is not Awake vs someone who is.

In general an Awakened teacher would understand most any lineage - but that does not imply that for those without a prior clear lineage that they would all be inclined to start their own teaching rather than utilize a previous one. It is pretty easy to see how tempting utilizing a previous well established lineage make many things a whole lot easier. In Essence - my bigger discussion here is the continued use of old wording that has proven itself to be quite unclear - though very clear after the fact.

Good question - but quite a few have and they are clearly Awake. Those that I am familiar with Awoke but did not have much of a relationship with a particular teaching. Once clearly Awake it is obvious regarding most of the realizations and your question in that regard.

Your question implies that you believe that all awakenings are the same. And hence all lineages are the same. I do not. View affects outcome. One persons awakening is another persons mental burp.

hmmmmmm. so i take it that you want all of us to know that you are awakened? Just pulling you non-existent, non-ego leg. I have also had experiences that transcend description, but just seeing the connection to everything, no gaps, and the amazing wonder of it all is as close as i can come to speaking of it. With that said, I don't have a fucking clue what the term, or word "awakening" means. For me, it is a label folks put on themselves or the so called "spiritual teachers" that gives them a "special" standing in the spiritual community, (such as it is), that says, "I made it, now I know shit". LOL Been at this cat and pony show for some time, talked to adyashanti, and others, and never seen anyone who "destroyed ego". Maybe someone has, but then again, they are probably not posting on these kinds of links and talking through there asses like I am right now. Ego is as much a part of the human experience, (at least for me) as eating, shitting, laughing, crying and everything else that makes us human. For me, it is just that this so called ego, doesn't have the power I once gave it. while it is still a part of me, it is not in the drivers seat, but others experiences could be very different. who knows.

Not sure I follow the topic point or your point... but if one is an awakened teacher, shouldn't a lineage be meaningless; ergo, they can understand most any lineage ? The 'mapping to in their mind' seems to suggest not awakened. Just not sure what you are arguing here but would like to understand it more.

In some cases it would mean Enlightenment as defined as the end of suffering, the end of fear, the destruction of ego. An abiding presence in intuitive awareness and what some have termed the un-grasped state. A state in which the investment in one’s personhood and egoism / habituations has ceased and Self - Divine Essence - Presence In The Moment has come forth and one is abiding in this awareness. Oneness and Unity Consciousness may preceed this state or unfold during or after Awakening. A deep and sometimes completely incapacitating shift to a non- inertia state - often coupled with nearly complete loss of personal identity / the falling away of self/ego/one’s story/identifications. Often particularly debilitating for 2 years or more in a sort of free fall with no desires or inclinations and often accompanied by intense feelings of gratitude (toward nothing in particular or everything at once). Typically having Awareness 24 hours a day even while the body sleeps if it sleeps at all. The shift may include phenomenal sustained changes in energy, a sort of constant feeling of floating about two inches above the ground while being utterly embodied and intensely visceral. Non-object Awareness, consistent frequent No Thought Awareness and the easy ability to be In no thought. No dreams, expanded inner sight, expanded Unity Consciousness and considerably more. Some residual habituations may remain but may or may not be obvious until they are. All seeking ends completely It is crystal clear that selfhood has fallen away - one’s positions and habituation have largely fallen away and virtually no holding of positions that still have some habituation. It may be that Samadhi can be had at any time - that immense energies unravel in incapacitating but not overwhelming openings from time to time or become sustained. These were just some of my experiences and are frequently cited as full Awakening experiences and abiding Awakening vs “an experience or taste of Awakening”. As as it has been noted - some consider these general qualities to be Enlightenment - I do not - though certainly some of the components are indicative of a more established abiding. Some experience fluquations in and out of abidance in Presence and loss and regaining of personhood and still sleep fully and dream - this has not been the case in the experience here.

I had an interesting run-in with an aggressive drunk over the holiday period. What transpired surprised all of us involved. I was with a few friends having a drink in a pub. In the doorway, as we were leaving to go for dinner, this big chap aggressively put his hand on my shoulder to stop me. I turned around... everything went a little slow... I could feel adrenaline start to make its way through my system... He was saying stuff but I couldn’t really understand - it felt as if he was miles away. The next moment I found myself zooming in really close and looking deeply into the man, completely focused and silent inside, and I could touch this deep sadness in him (on the surface he was red and very angry) - I felt a tinge of it, but it was quickly replaced by this sudden, warm expansion starting at the mingmen and moving through the centre out to the heart. It felt as if it worked itself through my whole body, relaxing all tension and subduing the adrenaline spike... eventually squeezing its way out through my pores. My body felt fat, swollen and wet. This process felt like an eternity... apparently was just a few seconds. But what happened next surprised me even more. I open my mouth and say “Don’t worry... she’ll be alright... I promise”. This wasn’t connected to a thought or an intention that I had - it just came out. As the guy hears this, he stops in his tracks, his face drops and goes pale. He mumbles something, drops to the floor and starts sobbing. I go to pat him on the back, but as I touch him, all his muscles tense up and he lets out this pained gasp. A couple of men watching run over, I think they thought I was hurting him somehow... I let go and quickly leave with my friends. My friends were all buzzing with an adrenaline afterglow, asking wtf just happened... they don’t know the extent of my practice, so rather than complicate matters I just said that he was very pissed and I just said it to confuse him so that we could get out. They were happy with that explanation.

2018 Update: Found my good old serrapeptase bottle (120 000 SPUs) and I've been taking it every other night on an empty stomach. I notice that it has a strong effect on my lungs, I suspect I have some scar tissue there from smoking cigarettes and ripping massive bong hits. Also I have noticed that it somehow relaxes my body, I was doing sitting meditation and I was so relaxed I couldn't feel my arms.

Also to Star Jumper, there is no way to do the level 2 Fragrant Qigong properly from any you tube video unless you understand Chinese. This is because there are movements done where you have to work your legs in a way that is opposite to the side you are moving your hands to, etc. That requires teaching and practice which is available in English on John Dolic's dvd of this form. I learned levels one and two from his dvds. Then you can follow along with the youtube videos of Master Tian's daughters doing the forms. I would not trust any other posted videos of Fragrant Qigong because even as a novice I noticed mistakes being made. My wife strongly smelled the scent of flowers when she tried doing Fragrant Qigong the first time and she smells it when I have done the form in the same room as she is in. But I have yet to smell anything, nor have I felt anything other than the typical chi sensation in the hands. And that is all I have felt from any of the other 80-90 methods of qigong that I have tried.