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About freeform
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Hey I saw a post where you said you can emit chi. How long have you been on the energetic cultivation path for?
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Kung fu type horse stance, in my opinion is fine and shouldnāt be problematic as long as you keep it as a form of exercise (no fancy breathing or energetics). Kung fu exercises - stretching, strengthening, loosening type workouts are all good. Pilates type stuff is great too (core work). What I see called āanimal flows or āanimal crawlsā (similar to some Kung fu methods) are all good too. The strength, flexibility and mobility you develop will all help when you eventually get back into internal practice. You're a young man right? Get fit and strong now while itās easy. Lots of benefits - and definitely helpful for internal work if thatās your main interest.
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šš¼
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The timing of this man is impeccable Very much this. āstillā is the quality on the consciousness level and āconsolidatedā is the same quality on the energetic level. The practices that Damo is sharing in the YouTube channel are all very helpful (not the microcosmic orbit though - not for most people). Essentially if you practice all these exercises heās shared youāre getting the best ābang for the buckā if health, inner comfort and well-being are your primary concerns at this time. Cultivation proper, of course, requires more - but what heās shared is really powerful despite its simplicity.
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āGolden Elixir is another name for xing and mingāĀ ā Liu Yiming
freeform replied to Yueya's topic in Daoist Discussion
You have no idea what my āmethodā is. And Iām talking about basic human relationships, manners and integrity - not Daoism. Youāve managed offend and alienate your only āfriendā here⦠worst of all, you probably never even realised he was being your friend, because you were too busy with yourself. -
āGolden Elixir is another name for xing and mingāĀ ā Liu Yiming
freeform replied to Yueya's topic in Daoist Discussion
@awaken - Iāve got to say, you seem to be quite unhinged from reality. As far as I can see @Cleansox is one of the only people actually engaging with you in a friendly and meaningful way, taking time to read your posts, asking clarifying questions, giving you the space to explain your stuff better⦠And you try and insult him. If your method of cultivation leads to the state youāre exhibiting here, then to me itās clearly to be avoided! Youāre exhibiting the exact opposite of the humour, humility and kindness that a Daoist (or any healthy, decent human being) should have. All I keep seeing is an inflated ego, arrogance and self entitlement with an inability to connect with people. Just because you donāt ask for payment doesnāt mean that a relationship with you is free. Sometimes whatās by all appearance being given freely is the most costly option there is. -
I agree with you that Jing can be replenished. Many, however disagree and say that thereās a finite amount (and then you die). But, if indeed itās possible to replenish Jing - it is very rare. Iāve met only a handful of people that have done that to a high level. ā Transformation comes with the clap of thunder. White clouds form above the head. Sweet dew flows down. One consumes the wine of immortality. Free and at ease⦠but who would notice. Sitting and listening to the melody of no strings playing. ā Iāve mentioned my experience with this here at some point. However my attainment is still at the very earliest stage of that process - not the āsweet dewā talked of above (and yet already a paradigm shift in how my body and physiology function). At that stage, this is not your personal Jing - not even your pre-heaven congenital Jing. Itās another form of Jing entirely. But what Iāve been talking about here in this thread is a much earlier stage of cultivation than that. Where 99.9999% of cultivators are at - or at most a few years away from. I keep saying that these things are hugely context dependent. We can make a real mess of things by not understanding the context that applies to us. The stages of Jing/Qi fullness and consolidation Iām talking about are basic and fundamental - theyāre required to get anywhere near the āsweet dewā process. With Jing Qi and Shen at this level, one substance does not transform into the other because in reality they are one and the same āsubstanceā. True transformation happens later on the path. And the transformation is a lot more literal than metaphorical. In my experience people completely underestimate the vastness of the early stages - always keen to jump ahead without achieving the fundamentals. One of the biggest underestimations is just how much Qi must be cultivated to provide the correct level of āsulphurā for the alchemical process to take place. (A tip for the few with the ears to listen) Qi will build naturally with the ācessation of wordsā. But the Qi must build a lot - thereās the classic 5 depths of Qi - from skin level to marrow level. Each of the 5 need to be full. Most cultivators are able to access at least 3 levels⦠but very rarely do they fill these three, let alone all 5. You cannot hold much Qi because you havenāt been able to maintain ācessation of wordsā in your standing practice for long enough. It all happens naturally by itself. No guiding or forcing or compressing⦠the qi does it all itself. Create the right conditions and the simplest method will take off all by itself with no micromanaging required (indeed, that would stop the process) - just some basic methods and a still, steady, unwavering awareness. Qi can get so dense that it takes on an almost physical form. When this dense level of Qi first entered my hip socket (during sitting practice) there was a massive clung like a dramatic chiropractic adjustment. Constant chiropractic style adjustments all up my spine⦠The spaces in my torso, between ribs, clavicles, muscle groups and even organs all physically filled up⦠my skin became plump like a babyās⦠my skull creaked and cracked, reshaping over months⦠my upper pallet cracked and widened creating a little dimple in the middle⦠my sinuses cracked and widened (a massive relief that was)⦠my eyes changed colour. This is just Qi doing itās thing. But it only penetrates deep and affects change substantially when itās dense⦠The level of density equates to the depth of its action. When dense, it feels literally like it has weight to it. When my Dantien is active, it forms a physical shape in my abdomen. Like a rubber ball - clear and evident to anyone. The Dantien itself fills with qi through so many stages too. What one gets through spontaneous movement is a tiny fraction of what āfullā is. The density of Qi while at the stage of spontaneous movements is very low - so low that it mostly touches the nerve fibres (hence the shaking and spasming)⦠until eventually it accesses the channels (which is when most movements stop!) People argue about the Dantien being the size of a golfball or a grapefruit⦠or itās your whole abdomen⦠or itās at your perineum or no itās at the solar plexus⦠itās all of those - again this issue of context. Context of progress in your process as well as context of what your particular lineage is aiming to do. In many of the genuine alchemical systems Iāve come across, the Dantien changes, expands and contracts in stages⦠from the light internal humm you get with zifagong to a noticeable sphere as the yin begins to take shape⦠to filling your full abdominal cavity as the yang builds (and the various organs and tissues inside are filled too) to eventually expanding through the whole body⦠and more still. These are all stages of the process. With years of practice in between. And this is all prior to any alchemical process (or at least what I call an alchemical process - which involves working with and transforming the fundamental substances of existence)⦠All this qi stuff forms just one of the required agents or substances. Iām saying this not as a brag, not as a āmy school is better than yoursā. I just want to show that there is a real transformation that occurs - and itās the very beginning, fundamental practices that everyone skips or speeds through that are the most important. Skip a small thing, or even just assume youāve got it before you really have - and nothing thatās later down the line will manifest⦠or it will manifest not quite right and youāll stop progress. The later stuff in many ways is actually achieved more easily than the beginner level stuff. As long as you have a few of the basic skills and conditions down, it all unfolds of itās own accord over the years as you practice quite straightforward methods. I get that this is all the opinion of some dude on the internet. I get that my school does things in a certain way that might not align with another⦠Even so, I donāt think it would hurt taking a few steps back and looking at the fundamental, beginner stuff in your practice (a general āyouā - not talking to anyone in particular). With just a curious approach of āmaybe thereās more to this than I thought⦠how can I explore this foundational process and take it deeper?ā⦠āwhat if⦠I havenāt actually managed the very simplest of the basic things like allowing the qi to sink and settle? How would I go about things if this was the case?ā Just treat it as an exploration. The answers are rarely in the classics. The classics assume youāve got a teacher and youāve managed to achieve the fundamentals⦠the classics (the alchemical ones especially) are all talking about the ācutting edgeā stuff at the very highest levels (with plenty of obfuscation and misdirection to throw off the uninitiated). Some classical texts are wholistic - explaining the whole path in simple terms - these tend to be the really simple ones that most people overlook. But even so - these are only an adjunct to a teacher if you want to genuinely transform the nature of existence (not everyone wants that⦠itās a weird thing to want!) Anyway - please excuse the long rambling post. Itās not long before Iāll be taking my leave for some time and wanted to touch upon a few things in an effort to help those that are cultivating.
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Depends what you meant by 'kept'. If 'kept' is the opposite of 'depleted' - then it's a must. Anyone with depleted Jing or Qi will have a hard time cultivating - they require medical help and/or very light qi gong that gently circulates and calms. If 'kept' means somehow frozen and kept from expressing itself - then that's extremely problematic - we certainly don't want that. If 'kept' means reversed... or kept from continuing the natural aging process - then yes, what I'm talking about wouldn't achieve that... for that, as you say, one needs to move on to more advanced alchemical work. Consolidated (in the way I'm using the term) simply means it's not leaking. If it's leaking in your sleep, then it's not consolidated yet. For example children naturally have full, consolidated jing... but it isn't 'kept' as such - it expresses itself as the powerful life processes of growth and development. After puberty, the 'entropy' aspect begins to take over... (for this reason some masters would adopt young orphan kids to pass on their lineage - because everything is full and consolidated, it basically cuts out many years of hard work... though doing that has its own issues.) I'm talking about a far earlier process. I assume that if you're at that stage, then you generally know what you're doing already - and don't need tips on the internet I'm talking about the initial reversal of water and fire... in effect, we begin reversing their tendency to leak and to disperse. (Qi disperses through emotion and emotional reactivity mainly) As I mentioned above... I find that description problematic - it doesn't explain what actually happens. It's not that Jing as a substance is changed to a different substance: Qi (meaning Jing is depleted as a result and Qi is replenished). Full and consolidate Jing supports the generation of Qi... Full and consolidated Qi supports the generation of Shen. Full and consolidated Shen supports entry to various other aspects (Like Ling or Yuan Shen). Every stage must be 'full' for the most efficient functioning. (and again this is all prior to working alchemically on the 'pre-heaven' aspect of these things).
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It's technical jargon really Generally Qi is said to disperse and Jing is said to leak. These are the natural tendencies. This relates to the fire and water nature of these 'substances'. So Qi, like fire or heat tends to rise and disperse outwards. Jing, related to water tends leak down and out. I'm no TCM expert, but ginseng is generally considered highly tonifying for the Qi. I haven't seen it described to have a dispersing action (though it could). Because of its strength, it does have many contraindications (such as excess heat, yin depletion and others). It's rare to take ginseng outside of a 'balanced' formula... and it's problematic if the right balance is not found for your particular condition and constitution (and continually adjusted as things change). So effectively - if you're running on empty (yin depletion, which is related to jing depletion) it's a bad idea crank the 'gas pedal' as hard as possible. No - everyone has jing qi and shen. This is a continuous process in everyone. (Though I personally think that the concept of 'converting' jing to Qi... then 'converting' Qi to Shen is flawed... or at least misses some key nuances.)
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Technically yes - to a certain level. Though beyond a certain point itās unhealthy for non-cultivators. In reality, the main reason for doing this is to use this essence for spiritual cultivation. Various alchemical and energetic processes can be undertaken when the Jing is full and consolidated. Yes - this is usually achieved on a personal retreat - the infamous ā100 daysā⦠though it may take a little longer for most people. Not an easy thing to be able to do of course. For most people (non-cultivators) itās much better to use your Jing in a healthy, balanced way. Itās nature is to unfold your life-processes and to support and create new life too From a Jing point of view, our modern society is really quite sick. Base desires are not only tolerated, but encouraged. Weāre constantly bombarded by sexualised media⦠lust, greed, social status - these are the most celebrated things in much of the media we consume⦠experts in manipulating our psychology constantly devise ways to play on our desires, keep our attention and make us spend. Itās a strange world we live in and our ānormalā isnāt healthy! So itās very hard to be a normal person nowadays. Iād say that to regain a healthy relationship with the āwaterā aspect (Jing and all the related psychology and instinctual drives) we must be quite careful with how we relate with the outer world. Guard your awareness from too much media. Try spending more time in nature⦠focus on relationships more than on things⦠guard yourself from having your desires manipulated⦠protect against constant distractions and learn to focus your mind on what youāre doing. This combined with healthy eating/sleeping/exercise will naturally alleviate the āboom and bust cycleā. This is enough to stabilise that aspect of our nature and often weāll find a nice balance for ourselves.
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I think youāre actually touching on two separate things. One is consolidation (what some traditions call ending the āleakageā of Jing) and the other is the āfullnessā of Jing. Fullness of Jing is just a healthy state for people. Yes - when the Jing is full (but not consolidated) it has a tendency to āleakā⦠in that you are drawn into activities that use up that Jing. Most people that are rooted in that aspect of their consciousness will find they go through these boom and bust cycles over and over. Weāll spend our Jing on stuff like staying up late, too much sexual/lusty activity, drugs/drink, chasing pleasure and sensory experience (where the leakage expresses through the 5 elemental qualities and systems)⦠As this causes the Jing to get depleted, we then go through a low period where the desire to do these things fades and we get a little down and depressed⦠maybe weāll re-affirm our efforts and slowly Jing will replenish⦠and as it does the leaking will take place once again. Obviously this isnāt healthy - but from what I can tell this is normal for most people nowadays - especially young men. Consolidation is a little different. Itās the process by which this leakage tendency is reduced and ultimately ended. Thereās several aspects to it - physical, energetic and psychological. Energetically we bring the senses from seeking stimulation outside to gently resting inwardly. We allow the awareness to settle and stabilise at the Dantien. Settle means stillness⦠stability means an unwavering quality. This isnāt done through mental directing and effort⦠itās done by Sung and Ting (release and listening). Different traditions will have different methods for assisting in this process (for example āpore breathingā type practices from the Longmen tradition)⦠In fact most practices that assist in sinking and stabilising at the Dantien are helpful in this regard. Thereās the psychological part too. This is often overlooked - but itās key. Even if energetically youāre able to consolidate, youāll reverse that in seconds if that base-desire-led aspect of your nature isnāt handled. Physical is a bit more basic⦠healthy, moderate lifestyle - sleep, food, exercise, moderation in sexual activity, not losing lots of blood So hopefully that helps explain the difference between what Iām calling āfullness of Jingā and āconsolidation of Jingā. (In cultivation we want both.)
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Yin and Yang are at the root of all processes. However - they are still conceptual abstractions. To me, the process is more important than the overlaid conceptual model. For instance in the process of developing some internal mechanism - I may well understand my progression as moving from Sheng (hexagram 46 for Ascending) -> to Gen (47 - Confinement/oppression) -> changing to Tui (58 - Lake)⦠(or possibly Kan, 29 - Abysmal) Meaning that a beneficial process has been over-worked⦠resulting in a period of oppression⦠if I donāt fight against it with continued over-reaching, and instead accept the state of confinement and bide my time, I may be able to transform the situation into an auspicious one that develops an inner strength (Lake). If I fight against it, I may shift the process into the āAbysmalā instead⦠Now I know what to do. And often my teacher helps me navigate my cultivation process using yi jing in this exact way. This is how I use the cyclical unfolding of yin and yang in time and space to assist me. But itās still just a tool. Iām less interested in the tool than the process the tool is helping me achieve. In fact at some stage the need for this tool falls away (when direct perception arises). This is the De of wisdom. I rarely discuss classical texts or yi jing for that reason. Iām interested in the actual inner process - not the tool that describes the process. Many people get lost in the tool itself and I think thatās not helpful at all. Ah - well now thatās starting to explain the frosty attitude! Of course I judge everything according to my experiences and my perspective (donāt you?). And itās not just from my school - but from all my experiences⦠including ones from the many other schools and teachers Iāve had contact with (including JAJ, for instance). However youāre mistaken about one thing - If I donāt have a personal understanding⦠or at least have an incomplete understanding, I usually say so - at least I try to make it clear. Itās true that I may think I understand something (but donāt)⦠Iām conscious of this, and do try to guard against it as best I can. Whether I or my school is objectively correct or not - no one is to know. For me personally, the proof is in the pudding (and pudding tasting has been my main preoccupation for quite some time š¤¤). For you and other readers itās up to your personal judgement and discernment. I think people can be too fluid with an attitude of āeveryone is right about everything in their own special wayā. False humility. Yielding with no backbone creates mush. So I present my experience, sometimes strongly, if I feel it requires it - and itās up to you to make of it what you will. I donāt think Iāve presented anything very strongly here though⦠hence why I was surprised at the frostiness. My intention isnāt to be right or to make you feel judged or uncomfortable. My intention is to be helpful. I get a real kick out of seeing fellow cultivators succeed in their training - itās the only reason I take time to post here. You'll soon get a nice, long break from me as I prepare for my next retreat
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Of course I would. Itās not the school I care about most - itās the people and their attainment, skill and wisdom that Iām more interested in. Iām not that interested in cultural stuff - though I can see why some people find it fascinating. There are clear differences in paths of course. But to me, the main issue is that people underestimate the path theyāre on⦠they stop near the very beginning or part way through and think theyāve arrived. Iāve seen this in every tradition - over and over. But when someone takes their path to the very ends of whatās possible for them, I have nothing but admiration and respect for that - whether it aligns with me or not. And in reality when this is genuinely whatās happened, the differences between the paths become much less prominent than the similarities. To me all the vast variety of paths tend to fall into a few groups. I find I resonate with the paths that work directly with the transformation of the subtle substances (internal alchemy is one, Buddhism has their versions⦠Hinduism certainly does too⦠even esoteric Christianity does) others are into devotion⦠others still are into entering states of consciousness⦠and some are into various forms of inquiry. Nope. Again - I donāt care about institutions. The reality is that thereās the scholarās version of how changes in traditions come about and thereās the real version. The real version is to do with people and relationships on various levels. The scholarās version is to do with arguments about like the schismatic difference between āthe realm of supreme clarityā and the āsupreme heaven of jade purityā. When scholars argue they leave behind a lot of evidence⦠while the cultivators just cultivate. A cultivator can use either side of the schismatic split to help their students. I have unequivocal proof of my teacherās level of attainment. I donāt care if theyāre Christian, Buddhist or Hindu or all three at the same time. Iām not believing in Christianity or Buddhism or Hinduism - Iām believing in my teachers who have achieved things I thought were myths and legends. These traditions have zero value without the people and beings that keep them alive. Iāve met plenty of abhorrent Daoists⦠and Buddhists and Hindus. I donāt think the culture or philosophy or even the practices have that much bearing on oneās level of cultivation - the actual people, the teachers and their capacity for skilful and virtuous cultivation have a far greater bearing than the traditions that pave the way for them. Of course I ālike my own qigongā - but if you think Iām trying to convert you or anyone because I think itās 100% truth - then youāre way off the mark. Iām just offering a little window on my experiences over the decades that Iāve dedicated to this stuff. Do you think I should be? Why arenāt you? I rarely expound on philosophy - I find it a bit dull and pointless unless it applies to a process Iām engaging with.
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My teachers are Quanzhen - so thereās certainly a Buddhist influence - but its very much an alchemical lineage at its heart. Im using the term ādirect insightā as a simplification. The way weāve explored this subject is based around various aspects of the light of Yuan Shen and Ling - as well as the āanatomyā of the upper Dantien and the various āsheathsā of the central channel. I rather not go into that for various reasons. Central channel and Ling work is very weird indeed - and there are things I canāt really talk about. For one of the processes I even had to keep my face completely hidden from anyone for several months. Itās not so much that it relates to only the subtle body. It relates to the process of change - movement, transformation etc⦠at the level of Qi (meaning that which links heaven and earth)⦠Itās not describing things - but the constantly changing relationships between āthingsā. So itās not only the qi of the internal body, but everything (weather, planetary movements, music, politics - anything manifest really). Thereās an underlying process of change beneath the appearance of things. The Yi Jing is the tool used to access and describe this.
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Describe what you think enlightenment is and what you would realize should you have it
freeform replied to helpfuldemon's topic in Buddhist Discussion
It may well be even more literal than that