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  1. Hey I saw a post where you said you can emit chi. How long have you been on the energetic cultivation path for?

    1. Pak_Satrio


      Hey @Cultivation1, check out this post from 小梦想, he can emit qi


  2. Horse Stance and qi deviations

    Kung fu type horse stance, in my opinion is fine and shouldn’t be problematic as long as you keep it as a form of exercise (no fancy breathing or energetics). Kung fu exercises - stretching, strengthening, loosening type workouts are all good. Pilates type stuff is great too (core work). What I see called ‘animal flows or ‘animal crawls’ (similar to some Kung fu methods) are all good too. The strength, flexibility and mobility you develop will all help when you eventually get back into internal practice. You're a young man right? Get fit and strong now while it’s easy. Lots of benefits - and definitely helpful for internal work if that’s your main interest.
  3. How does Jing relate to desires?

  4. How does Jing relate to desires?

    The timing of this man is impeccable Very much this. ’still’ is the quality on the consciousness level and ‘consolidated’ is the same quality on the energetic level. The practices that Damo is sharing in the YouTube channel are all very helpful (not the microcosmic orbit though - not for most people). Essentially if you practice all these exercises he’s shared you’re getting the best ‘bang for the buck’ if health, inner comfort and well-being are your primary concerns at this time. Cultivation proper, of course, requires more - but what he’s shared is really powerful despite its simplicity.
  5. You have no idea what my ‘method’ is. And I’m talking about basic human relationships, manners and integrity - not Daoism. You’ve managed offend and alienate your only ‘friend’ here… worst of all, you probably never even realised he was being your friend, because you were too busy with yourself.
  6. @awaken - I’ve got to say, you seem to be quite unhinged from reality. As far as I can see @Cleansox is one of the only people actually engaging with you in a friendly and meaningful way, taking time to read your posts, asking clarifying questions, giving you the space to explain your stuff better… And you try and insult him. If your method of cultivation leads to the state you’re exhibiting here, then to me it’s clearly to be avoided! You’re exhibiting the exact opposite of the humour, humility and kindness that a Daoist (or any healthy, decent human being) should have. All I keep seeing is an inflated ego, arrogance and self entitlement with an inability to connect with people. Just because you don’t ask for payment doesn’t mean that a relationship with you is free. Sometimes what’s by all appearance being given freely is the most costly option there is.
  7. How does Jing relate to desires?

    I agree with you that Jing can be replenished. Many, however disagree and say that there’s a finite amount (and then you die). But, if indeed it’s possible to replenish Jing - it is very rare. I’ve met only a handful of people that have done that to a high level. — Transformation comes with the clap of thunder. White clouds form above the head. Sweet dew flows down. One consumes the wine of immortality. Free and at ease… but who would notice. Sitting and listening to the melody of no strings playing. — I’ve mentioned my experience with this here at some point. However my attainment is still at the very earliest stage of that process - not the ‘sweet dew’ talked of above (and yet already a paradigm shift in how my body and physiology function). At that stage, this is not your personal Jing - not even your pre-heaven congenital Jing. It’s another form of Jing entirely. But what I’ve been talking about here in this thread is a much earlier stage of cultivation than that. Where 99.9999% of cultivators are at - or at most a few years away from. I keep saying that these things are hugely context dependent. We can make a real mess of things by not understanding the context that applies to us. The stages of Jing/Qi fullness and consolidation I’m talking about are basic and fundamental - they’re required to get anywhere near the ‘sweet dew’ process. With Jing Qi and Shen at this level, one substance does not transform into the other because in reality they are one and the same ‘substance’. True transformation happens later on the path. And the transformation is a lot more literal than metaphorical. In my experience people completely underestimate the vastness of the early stages - always keen to jump ahead without achieving the fundamentals. One of the biggest underestimations is just how much Qi must be cultivated to provide the correct level of ‘sulphur’ for the alchemical process to take place. (A tip for the few with the ears to listen) Qi will build naturally with the ‘cessation of words’. But the Qi must build a lot - there’s the classic 5 depths of Qi - from skin level to marrow level. Each of the 5 need to be full. Most cultivators are able to access at least 3 levels… but very rarely do they fill these three, let alone all 5. You cannot hold much Qi because you haven’t been able to maintain ‘cessation of words’ in your standing practice for long enough. It all happens naturally by itself. No guiding or forcing or compressing… the qi does it all itself. Create the right conditions and the simplest method will take off all by itself with no micromanaging required (indeed, that would stop the process) - just some basic methods and a still, steady, unwavering awareness. Qi can get so dense that it takes on an almost physical form. When this dense level of Qi first entered my hip socket (during sitting practice) there was a massive clung like a dramatic chiropractic adjustment. Constant chiropractic style adjustments all up my spine… The spaces in my torso, between ribs, clavicles, muscle groups and even organs all physically filled up… my skin became plump like a baby’s… my skull creaked and cracked, reshaping over months… my upper pallet cracked and widened creating a little dimple in the middle… my sinuses cracked and widened (a massive relief that was)… my eyes changed colour. This is just Qi doing it’s thing. But it only penetrates deep and affects change substantially when it’s dense… The level of density equates to the depth of its action. When dense, it feels literally like it has weight to it. When my Dantien is active, it forms a physical shape in my abdomen. Like a rubber ball - clear and evident to anyone. The Dantien itself fills with qi through so many stages too. What one gets through spontaneous movement is a tiny fraction of what ‘full’ is. The density of Qi while at the stage of spontaneous movements is very low - so low that it mostly touches the nerve fibres (hence the shaking and spasming)… until eventually it accesses the channels (which is when most movements stop!) People argue about the Dantien being the size of a golfball or a grapefruit… or it’s your whole abdomen… or it’s at your perineum or no it’s at the solar plexus… it’s all of those - again this issue of context. Context of progress in your process as well as context of what your particular lineage is aiming to do. In many of the genuine alchemical systems I’ve come across, the Dantien changes, expands and contracts in stages… from the light internal humm you get with zifagong to a noticeable sphere as the yin begins to take shape… to filling your full abdominal cavity as the yang builds (and the various organs and tissues inside are filled too) to eventually expanding through the whole body… and more still. These are all stages of the process. With years of practice in between. And this is all prior to any alchemical process (or at least what I call an alchemical process - which involves working with and transforming the fundamental substances of existence)… All this qi stuff forms just one of the required agents or substances. I’m saying this not as a brag, not as a ‘my school is better than yours’. I just want to show that there is a real transformation that occurs - and it’s the very beginning, fundamental practices that everyone skips or speeds through that are the most important. Skip a small thing, or even just assume you’ve got it before you really have - and nothing that’s later down the line will manifest… or it will manifest not quite right and you’ll stop progress. The later stuff in many ways is actually achieved more easily than the beginner level stuff. As long as you have a few of the basic skills and conditions down, it all unfolds of it’s own accord over the years as you practice quite straightforward methods. I get that this is all the opinion of some dude on the internet. I get that my school does things in a certain way that might not align with another… Even so, I don’t think it would hurt taking a few steps back and looking at the fundamental, beginner stuff in your practice (a general ‘you’ - not talking to anyone in particular). With just a curious approach of ‘maybe there’s more to this than I thought… how can I explore this foundational process and take it deeper?’… ‘what if… I haven’t actually managed the very simplest of the basic things like allowing the qi to sink and settle? How would I go about things if this was the case?’ Just treat it as an exploration. The answers are rarely in the classics. The classics assume you’ve got a teacher and you’ve managed to achieve the fundamentals… the classics (the alchemical ones especially) are all talking about the ‘cutting edge’ stuff at the very highest levels (with plenty of obfuscation and misdirection to throw off the uninitiated). Some classical texts are wholistic - explaining the whole path in simple terms - these tend to be the really simple ones that most people overlook. But even so - these are only an adjunct to a teacher if you want to genuinely transform the nature of existence (not everyone wants that… it’s a weird thing to want!) Anyway - please excuse the long rambling post. It’s not long before I’ll be taking my leave for some time and wanted to touch upon a few things in an effort to help those that are cultivating.
  8. How does Jing relate to desires?

    Depends what you meant by 'kept'. If 'kept' is the opposite of 'depleted' - then it's a must. Anyone with depleted Jing or Qi will have a hard time cultivating - they require medical help and/or very light qi gong that gently circulates and calms. If 'kept' means somehow frozen and kept from expressing itself - then that's extremely problematic - we certainly don't want that. If 'kept' means reversed... or kept from continuing the natural aging process - then yes, what I'm talking about wouldn't achieve that... for that, as you say, one needs to move on to more advanced alchemical work. Consolidated (in the way I'm using the term) simply means it's not leaking. If it's leaking in your sleep, then it's not consolidated yet. For example children naturally have full, consolidated jing... but it isn't 'kept' as such - it expresses itself as the powerful life processes of growth and development. After puberty, the 'entropy' aspect begins to take over... (for this reason some masters would adopt young orphan kids to pass on their lineage - because everything is full and consolidated, it basically cuts out many years of hard work... though doing that has its own issues.) I'm talking about a far earlier process. I assume that if you're at that stage, then you generally know what you're doing already - and don't need tips on the internet I'm talking about the initial reversal of water and fire... in effect, we begin reversing their tendency to leak and to disperse. (Qi disperses through emotion and emotional reactivity mainly) As I mentioned above... I find that description problematic - it doesn't explain what actually happens. It's not that Jing as a substance is changed to a different substance: Qi (meaning Jing is depleted as a result and Qi is replenished). Full and consolidate Jing supports the generation of Qi... Full and consolidated Qi supports the generation of Shen. Full and consolidated Shen supports entry to various other aspects (Like Ling or Yuan Shen). Every stage must be 'full' for the most efficient functioning. (and again this is all prior to working alchemically on the 'pre-heaven' aspect of these things).
  9. How does Jing relate to desires?

    It's technical jargon really Generally Qi is said to disperse and Jing is said to leak. These are the natural tendencies. This relates to the fire and water nature of these 'substances'. So Qi, like fire or heat tends to rise and disperse outwards. Jing, related to water tends leak down and out. I'm no TCM expert, but ginseng is generally considered highly tonifying for the Qi. I haven't seen it described to have a dispersing action (though it could). Because of its strength, it does have many contraindications (such as excess heat, yin depletion and others). It's rare to take ginseng outside of a 'balanced' formula... and it's problematic if the right balance is not found for your particular condition and constitution (and continually adjusted as things change). So effectively - if you're running on empty (yin depletion, which is related to jing depletion) it's a bad idea crank the 'gas pedal' as hard as possible. No - everyone has jing qi and shen. This is a continuous process in everyone. (Though I personally think that the concept of 'converting' jing to Qi... then 'converting' Qi to Shen is flawed... or at least misses some key nuances.)
  10. How does Jing relate to desires?

    Technically yes - to a certain level. Though beyond a certain point it’s unhealthy for non-cultivators. In reality, the main reason for doing this is to use this essence for spiritual cultivation. Various alchemical and energetic processes can be undertaken when the Jing is full and consolidated. Yes - this is usually achieved on a personal retreat - the infamous ‘100 days’… though it may take a little longer for most people. Not an easy thing to be able to do of course. For most people (non-cultivators) it’s much better to use your Jing in a healthy, balanced way. It’s nature is to unfold your life-processes and to support and create new life too From a Jing point of view, our modern society is really quite sick. Base desires are not only tolerated, but encouraged. We’re constantly bombarded by sexualised media… lust, greed, social status - these are the most celebrated things in much of the media we consume… experts in manipulating our psychology constantly devise ways to play on our desires, keep our attention and make us spend. It’s a strange world we live in and our ‘normal’ isn’t healthy! So it’s very hard to be a normal person nowadays. I’d say that to regain a healthy relationship with the ‘water’ aspect (Jing and all the related psychology and instinctual drives) we must be quite careful with how we relate with the outer world. Guard your awareness from too much media. Try spending more time in nature… focus on relationships more than on things… guard yourself from having your desires manipulated… protect against constant distractions and learn to focus your mind on what you’re doing. This combined with healthy eating/sleeping/exercise will naturally alleviate the ‘boom and bust cycle’. This is enough to stabilise that aspect of our nature and often we’ll find a nice balance for ourselves.
  11. How does Jing relate to desires?

    I think you’re actually touching on two separate things. One is consolidation (what some traditions call ending the ‘leakage’ of Jing) and the other is the ‘fullness’ of Jing. Fullness of Jing is just a healthy state for people. Yes - when the Jing is full (but not consolidated) it has a tendency to ‘leak’… in that you are drawn into activities that use up that Jing. Most people that are rooted in that aspect of their consciousness will find they go through these boom and bust cycles over and over. We’ll spend our Jing on stuff like staying up late, too much sexual/lusty activity, drugs/drink, chasing pleasure and sensory experience (where the leakage expresses through the 5 elemental qualities and systems)… As this causes the Jing to get depleted, we then go through a low period where the desire to do these things fades and we get a little down and depressed… maybe we’ll re-affirm our efforts and slowly Jing will replenish… and as it does the leaking will take place once again. Obviously this isn’t healthy - but from what I can tell this is normal for most people nowadays - especially young men. Consolidation is a little different. It’s the process by which this leakage tendency is reduced and ultimately ended. There’s several aspects to it - physical, energetic and psychological. Energetically we bring the senses from seeking stimulation outside to gently resting inwardly. We allow the awareness to settle and stabilise at the Dantien. Settle means stillness… stability means an unwavering quality. This isn’t done through mental directing and effort… it’s done by Sung and Ting (release and listening). Different traditions will have different methods for assisting in this process (for example ‘pore breathing’ type practices from the Longmen tradition)… In fact most practices that assist in sinking and stabilising at the Dantien are helpful in this regard. There’s the psychological part too. This is often overlooked - but it’s key. Even if energetically you’re able to consolidate, you’ll reverse that in seconds if that base-desire-led aspect of your nature isn’t handled. Physical is a bit more basic… healthy, moderate lifestyle - sleep, food, exercise, moderation in sexual activity, not losing lots of blood So hopefully that helps explain the difference between what I’m calling ‘fullness of Jing’ and ‘consolidation of Jing’. (In cultivation we want both.)
  12. Zhan Zhuang - Grounded or Ungrounded

    Yin and Yang are at the root of all processes. However - they are still conceptual abstractions. To me, the process is more important than the overlaid conceptual model. For instance in the process of developing some internal mechanism - I may well understand my progression as moving from Sheng (hexagram 46 for Ascending) -> to Gen (47 - Confinement/oppression) -> changing to Tui (58 - Lake)… (or possibly Kan, 29 - Abysmal) Meaning that a beneficial process has been over-worked… resulting in a period of oppression… if I don’t fight against it with continued over-reaching, and instead accept the state of confinement and bide my time, I may be able to transform the situation into an auspicious one that develops an inner strength (Lake). If I fight against it, I may shift the process into the “Abysmal” instead… Now I know what to do. And often my teacher helps me navigate my cultivation process using yi jing in this exact way. This is how I use the cyclical unfolding of yin and yang in time and space to assist me. But it’s still just a tool. I’m less interested in the tool than the process the tool is helping me achieve. In fact at some stage the need for this tool falls away (when direct perception arises). This is the De of wisdom. I rarely discuss classical texts or yi jing for that reason. I’m interested in the actual inner process - not the tool that describes the process. Many people get lost in the tool itself and I think that’s not helpful at all. Ah - well now that’s starting to explain the frosty attitude! Of course I judge everything according to my experiences and my perspective (don’t you?). And it’s not just from my school - but from all my experiences… including ones from the many other schools and teachers I’ve had contact with (including JAJ, for instance). However you’re mistaken about one thing - If I don’t have a personal understanding… or at least have an incomplete understanding, I usually say so - at least I try to make it clear. It’s true that I may think I understand something (but don’t)… I’m conscious of this, and do try to guard against it as best I can. Whether I or my school is objectively correct or not - no one is to know. For me personally, the proof is in the pudding (and pudding tasting has been my main preoccupation for quite some time 🤤). For you and other readers it’s up to your personal judgement and discernment. I think people can be too fluid with an attitude of ‘everyone is right about everything in their own special way’. False humility. Yielding with no backbone creates mush. So I present my experience, sometimes strongly, if I feel it requires it - and it’s up to you to make of it what you will. I don’t think I’ve presented anything very strongly here though… hence why I was surprised at the frostiness. My intention isn’t to be right or to make you feel judged or uncomfortable. My intention is to be helpful. I get a real kick out of seeing fellow cultivators succeed in their training - it’s the only reason I take time to post here. You'll soon get a nice, long break from me as I prepare for my next retreat
  13. Zhan Zhuang - Grounded or Ungrounded

    Of course I would. It’s not the school I care about most - it’s the people and their attainment, skill and wisdom that I’m more interested in. I’m not that interested in cultural stuff - though I can see why some people find it fascinating. There are clear differences in paths of course. But to me, the main issue is that people underestimate the path they’re on… they stop near the very beginning or part way through and think they’ve arrived. I’ve seen this in every tradition - over and over. But when someone takes their path to the very ends of what’s possible for them, I have nothing but admiration and respect for that - whether it aligns with me or not. And in reality when this is genuinely what’s happened, the differences between the paths become much less prominent than the similarities. To me all the vast variety of paths tend to fall into a few groups. I find I resonate with the paths that work directly with the transformation of the subtle substances (internal alchemy is one, Buddhism has their versions… Hinduism certainly does too… even esoteric Christianity does) others are into devotion… others still are into entering states of consciousness… and some are into various forms of inquiry. Nope. Again - I don’t care about institutions. The reality is that there’s the scholar’s version of how changes in traditions come about and there’s the real version. The real version is to do with people and relationships on various levels. The scholar’s version is to do with arguments about like the schismatic difference between ‘the realm of supreme clarity’ and the ‘supreme heaven of jade purity’. When scholars argue they leave behind a lot of evidence… while the cultivators just cultivate. A cultivator can use either side of the schismatic split to help their students. I have unequivocal proof of my teacher’s level of attainment. I don’t care if they’re Christian, Buddhist or Hindu or all three at the same time. I’m not believing in Christianity or Buddhism or Hinduism - I’m believing in my teachers who have achieved things I thought were myths and legends. These traditions have zero value without the people and beings that keep them alive. I’ve met plenty of abhorrent Daoists… and Buddhists and Hindus. I don’t think the culture or philosophy or even the practices have that much bearing on one’s level of cultivation - the actual people, the teachers and their capacity for skilful and virtuous cultivation have a far greater bearing than the traditions that pave the way for them. Of course I ‘like my own qigong’ - but if you think I’m trying to convert you or anyone because I think it’s 100% truth - then you’re way off the mark. I’m just offering a little window on my experiences over the decades that I’ve dedicated to this stuff. Do you think I should be? Why aren’t you? I rarely expound on philosophy - I find it a bit dull and pointless unless it applies to a process I’m engaging with.
  14. Zhan Zhuang - Grounded or Ungrounded

    My teachers are Quanzhen - so there’s certainly a Buddhist influence - but its very much an alchemical lineage at its heart. Im using the term ‘direct insight’ as a simplification. The way we’ve explored this subject is based around various aspects of the light of Yuan Shen and Ling - as well as the ‘anatomy’ of the upper Dantien and the various ‘sheaths’ of the central channel. I rather not go into that for various reasons. Central channel and Ling work is very weird indeed - and there are things I can’t really talk about. For one of the processes I even had to keep my face completely hidden from anyone for several months. It’s not so much that it relates to only the subtle body. It relates to the process of change - movement, transformation etc… at the level of Qi (meaning that which links heaven and earth)… It’s not describing things - but the constantly changing relationships between ‘things’. So it’s not only the qi of the internal body, but everything (weather, planetary movements, music, politics - anything manifest really). There’s an underlying process of change beneath the appearance of things. The Yi Jing is the tool used to access and describe this.
  15. It may well be even more literal than that