Apech

Oh I thought you meant ‘entities’ …but insects?

It’s full of something alright.

Spooky!

well put just as an example Tilopa appears in both Buddhist and Hindu lineage lists.

I think what Sam is suggesting is that the idea of distinct ‘things’ called dzogchen or Chan may be confusing. I think it’s not about one thing dominating another thing but more something happened from which what we know as Dzogchen and Chan emerged.

Could be Sam van Schaik or Jeffrey Samuel - I have read a lot of both.

I don’t have references to hand I’m afraid.

Marpa held two lineages the direct and the indirect - the first from Naropa and the second from Maitripa. The Mahamudra lineage was the second. But of course this was in the tenth century AD and is not relevant to the true origins of either Mahamudra or Dzogchen. The true origins are connected to the kingdoms in the area of the Kashmir and Afghanistan which were in turn connected to the silk route and kingdoms such as Parthia and so on and of course China itself. This is the route along which both goods and knowledge were transmitted.

Thanks so Song Dyn for widespread use of term for a set of practices- is this what you mean by a modern invention?

isn’t the term neidan used in the cantong qi (sp?)

Apart from anything else Marpa obtained the Mahamudra lineage from Maitripa and not Naropa. Zouwang is first mentioned in zhuangzi and is probably much older thus pre- dating the Buddha.

I did but it did take a fairly large amount of alentejo red wine.

That would be acceptable.

oh ok … but your bookcase is otherwise impressive. So thank you.

Well! Where’s your copy of Childe Harold?