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@ChiDragon as promised my understanding: OK I will outline how I understand qigong and Neidan. The first thing to say is that it is not my specialist subject but I did study under a Chinese gentleman from Hong Kong who was living in England at that time, about thirty years ago. He taught me a qigong form called 'Nine Rings' and a Neidan mediation called Iron Mountain Lineage to a level where he said I could teach them to others. About 5/6 years ago when I was considering returning to Daoism as a main practice I studied English translations of a number of texts, such as Wang Mu and the Cantong qi, making detailed notes and so on. So I have some slight experience of the subject. The first thing to say is that qigong and Neidan are different. Qigong, which I would call skills in working with qi (in the body) has the goal of wellbeing, that is health and happiness. While Neidan has the goal of making the dan and from that immortality (although I don't think this means necessarily through a physical vehicle). Qigong involves three things. First developing 'sung' with the body. In other words mostly through standing postures you learn to relax the body round its frame such that it becomes a kind of absorbant container for qi. This is a distinct feeling which arises after long standing or sitting postures. Then the regulation of the breath, so it is smoothly in and out and continuous, and thirdly the focussed resting of your attention on the body undistracted by thoughts and so on. When this happens (which takes varying amounts of time depending on the person) you begin to become aware of qi on your body. Then the breathing and movement exercises operate through the three – body movement, breath and attention – all together which circulate and move qi in the body (and beyond as you can also learn to project qi). As to what qi is, well this is difficult to say, in some ways it is an effect and in others it is an agent of change. Calling it energy is not wrong but it's not right either. It is best left as being qi based on experiencing it, not speculating about it. Neigong is just as qigong but without so much of the physical movement. The goal of these two is health and happiness or wellbeing as I would put it. Neidan is different. The usual version of where this came from is that it evolved from WeiDan, that is alchemy using substances to make pills or medicines for health and immortality. But I think it is more likely that the whole project of Dan production began as both inner and outer together and then split into two schools, one dealing with outer substances and the other with inner substances. The Neidan approach retained the technical terms from outer alchemy, like lead, sulpher, cinnabar and so on … but applied them differently. The same was done with the TCM system of channels and nodes – the same terms were applied slightly differently and with different emphasis. So Neidan was quite technical and secret because the terminology was opaque to those who were not initiated. However the main point is the creation of the Dan through 'alchemically' mixing inner substances and then processing it to produce an immortal body. This is quite different to qigong, although they are obviously related because they both deal in the three treasures for instance. The level of intensity with Neidan is quite different. Qigong is basically benign but Neidan can be dangerous if misapplied. Jing is not a physical substance but is the most condensed form of qi before it becomes physical. As the physical is just this, a precipitate of qi. Shen is the most fine form of qi which forms the basis for mental activity. All three are a spectrum of states of qi, like ice, water, steam … are all the same substance in different phases. Knowledge and understanding of qi depends entirely on developing qi sensitivity. If one doesn't have it you are unlikely to understand it properly. But once you have it all philosophical speculations about its nature become redundant.

Fire from the Heavenly Stem hits the stable where the Horse has been chomping at the bit for 60 years. The Horse jumps out of the burning gate and takes off galloping, mane fiery, tail ablaze. It never fails to leave its hoof prints on the world's politics, economy, and landscape. Here are some of them: 1846 Mexican–American War begins, reshaping the future borders of the U.S. Peasant uprising in Galicia, future Ukraine, engineered by the occupying Austrian empire against the local Polish nobility. 1906 San Francisco earthquake and fire, one of the worst urban disasters in U.S. history. Mount Vesuvius eruption in Italy, a major disaster affecting Naples and surrounding regions. 1966 Cultural Revolution begins in China, profoundly reshaping society and politics. Flooding in Italy destroys a lot of cultural heritage in Florence and Venice. A major escalation in the Vietnam war. 2026 -- ? Of course there were good things happening too. The type of qi known as the Fire Horse can be quite transformative and, under the right circumstances and given the right treatment, energizing, illuminating, and magnificent. But it's the most volatile kind of them all, unpredictable and not easily governable. Let's hope no pale riders manage to mount it.

The common tactic among Western teachers is to take the simplest practice possible, overcomplicate it with made-up nonsense, create artificial barriers, and then sell it in tiny pieces for as long as they can. If they didn’t do this, they’d run out of material to teach in a week or a month. I’ve seen Damien “Standing Post aka Zhan Zhuang” course. For about 6–8 hours he teaches almost nothing of value with 99% of the information tied to basic physical posture. He has zero knowledge of the energetic aspects of the practice, no understanding of the upper and lower channels, and he clearly has no clue that you need a specific mental state and develop meditation skills to gain any real benefit from the posture itself. It’s basically like a kindergartener stealing a high-school math textbook written in a foreign language, ripping out all the important chapters, and then teaching other kids how to draw carrots and cucumbers so they can count to 10. In Chinese tradition it's very common to just give students the basic stuff like physical postures and hold back the real 99% of valuable info until the person proves they're trustworthy, loyal, hardworking, talented, etc. That's why you get all these "early graduates" who basically got kicked out by Teacher. The simplest way to ditch someone annoying is to pump up their ego: "You've learned everything, you're a master now, go spread the word!"

My 2025 started off rough, by spring I attempted a move. Didn't work out. Late summer, tried another move, didn't go as planned, yet, worked out in other ways. Fall has been good. Beginning this winter much better than a year ago. Reflecting on 2025, personally,,, new found direction. Looking at 2026, looking forward. Knowing, things continue to change. I learned a new way to offer Cheers, salut, etc And to all ya'lls bums, I raise my glass sans clinking Formidable!!

I read the title of this thread as ‘Saving Private Neidan’ on first take made me laugh.

Happy shortest day everyone!

Practicing nei dan from whatever you read on tdb will lead you to hell, a quite personal hell, because you are practicing wrong. Find a realized teacher.

This was a fascinating read. I find the sky-father deities and twin progenitors to be the weakest part of the argument. Those patterns show up in too many cultures to carry much weight on their own. I've always been interested in the appearance of a threefold pattern in the Daodejing, so that catches my eye. What intrigues me most, given my interests, is the proposed connection between Xi Wangmu, the Queen Mother of the West, and Kubala of Carchemish, Great Mother of the Mountains (and later as Cybele of Anatolia, Queen of Heaven and Earth.) I also think it's interesting that the Yijing trigram names may be Indo-European words, that the heavenly stems and earthly branches share a very old source with the Phoenician alphabet, and that Old Chinese itself may hold many Indo-European loanwords. It is clear there was real contact, influence, and exchange between these worlds. My question is, if Indo-Europeans created the Yijing and the Daodejing as distinct systems, separate from early Chinese culture, where is that system now in their own traditions? China, despite repeated waves of loss and destruction, has held onto these texts and developed their philosophy for thousands of years. If the deeper origin really lay with Indo-Europeans, where is the parallel, continuous lineage on their side? ---------------- 1. Mythological and Religious Parallels between Early China and Indo-Europeans • Sky Father Deities • Twin Progenitors and Sibling-Creators • Tripartite Functions and the Three Sovereigns • Western Paradise and the Queen Mother • Kunlun Mountain and the Cosmic Pillar • Jade, Immortality, and Steppe Connections • Foreign Ancestry of Culture Heroes 2. Linguistic and Textual Evidence (Yijing Trigrams and Language Contacts) • Yi Jing Trigram Names as Indo-European Words • Binary Structure and Yin–Yang Dualism as Indo-European Pattern • Heavenly Stems / Phoenician Alphabet Parallels • Old Chinese Loanwords from Indo-European Languages • Feudalism and Social Structure Parallels 3. Cultural and Philosophical Comparisons • Nomadic vs. Sedentary Lifestyle Fusion • Mandate of Heaven and Indo-European Moral Kingship • Chariot Technology and Warrior Aristocracy • Recording of History and Philosophical Consciousness 4. Archaeological, Genetic, and Migration Evidence • Tarim Basin Caucasian Mummies • Europoid Skulls at Anyang • Chariot and Horse Burials in Western Zhou • Steppe Cultural Motifs in Bronze, Art, and Tools • Migrations of Yuezhi, Wusun, Qiang, and Western Rong Near Zhou

Happy New Year to you Luke, and to the rest of you Bums. May 2026 bring out the best in us!

After many years of practice, the slow spiraling movements of tai chi become part of one´s personality; the habit of deep diaphramatic breathing results in a remarkable steady calm. No doubt this explains why Dao Bums forum members are unfailingly peaceful, remarkably free from the pugilistic impulses that characterize interaction in other corners of the intrawebs. Our tendency towards good cheer and amiability was especially apparent in that area of the site, now defunct, known as "Current Events." Did we always agree with one another? We did not. But even when we found ourselves at extreme idiological odds, we never failed to recognize the humanity and basic good will of our fellows. On that rare occasion when a post resulted in passing annoyance, we looked inward: what unresolved issue within us was responsible for this prick of discontent? Such is the way of the refined heart. And so, with all the gratitude and warm fuzzies I can muster, I raise my glass to you my fellow Bums. May you saunter on into the expanse of the desert or the misty mountains or the bathroom down the hall, wherever your path may lead. Happy New Year!!! LL

Moderator Note: In the interest of intelligibility and inclusivity we would like members to provide translations or at minimum transliterations of posts that include words or text in Chinese characters. This will give posts a wider reach and promote more wide ranging discussion. Thanks. A.

The current rule would at least require at least a demonstrable source--- i.e. a reference to either a particular school or text (understanding that schools and text may not always agree). If there is enough demand, I imagine we could create some section with those limitations. I don't think we have the software for that, and even if we did, I don't think it would matter. It is fairly easy to take a screenshot and pull text. Pancakes, arrested, hooker.

So true … when alone in solitude I cry out to my master to deliver the blow which will deliver my final awakening .. I pray thus: My loneliness is killing me (and I) I must confess, I still believe (still believe) When I’m not with you I lose my mind Give me a sign Hit me, baby, one more time

Merry Christmas to all of my Christian friends! May the holiday spirit bring unconditional joy, good health, and peace into your lives. And may we come closer in the coming year to a life of peace and mutual understanding.

Where else would it come from? True knowledge of the Dao comes from teachings that humans have written? This happens all of the time in Buddhism, another non-dual tradition - there is even a name for it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pratyekabuddhayāna I have actually met one. They are real... and why wouldn't they be, given the nature of the Dao/Enlightenment? I Agree that a realized teacher can be very useful, but completely understanding the Dao isn't a concept that a teacher can pass on, only point to. It isn't an intellectual concept that a person "owns". A realized teacher can point it out anywhere, at any time. Any teacher that pushes the idea that they are somehow the gatekeeper of the Dao isn't fully realized and is greatly deluded.

People can use whatever words and say whatever they want outside of neidan, but if you are talking about neidan, use the correct terminology and meanings

As an incomplete saint I help grandmothers halfway across the street. Not perfect but working on it.

ok If you are a spectator of a virtual concept, which has no physical proof, trying to understand the principle of something you don’t believe in, then why did you start a thread called the practice of neidan? Can you explain this because I am lost at this point.

I think I'll keep them– these rhythms, this reverence. All else I release.

It is typical in daoist thought that things are described in either the physical or the subtle. An example in neidan would be how a internal subtle change is made, which then will cascade leading to change in the external. An example of the opposite is in wuji stance, you let gravity pull you towards the earth, this constant pulling leads to small stretches of your relaxed muscles, which will lead to development of more Huang which in turn will lead to better qi conduction. From the physical to the subtle. I think it's completely valid to drag in physics and biology/chemistry into the equation, but the question should be where in the cascading process do they fit in, in whatever specific circumstance is being discussed. As a daoist you'd either make a small change that sets off a natural chain of responses, or strengthen an already ongoing natural process, to either speed it up or because the strengthened accumulation will result in an effect the weaker process couldn't make happen without the strengthening. From an internal arts perspective that is... A long rambling basically to say that i agree As for what concepts are related or not, that's probably as much of a matter of perspective and personal opinion or even preference for how minute or detailed things should be laid out.

Very refreshing. In my then-atheistic old country we used to celebrate the New Year with the same gusto that was reserved for Christmas in the non-atheistic parts of the world. This is the picture of the last New Year's tree I saw, located within a short walking distance from where I lived. It wasn't the main one in the city, and therefore not the biggest -- but it was nice, and fully real. Our Grandfather Frost is not unlike Santa, but dresses somewhat differently (the hat especially) and doesn't go down the chimney, nor scrutinizes kids for who's naughty and who's nice, everybody gets a present. Adults didn't exchange presents, those were exclusively for kids -- whereas adults just threw and/or attended a party, usually the biggest party of the year.

The dzogchen path that I follow is one that is guilty of using such terminology. Dzogchen literally means great (chen) perfection (dzog). As Keith suggests, to the Western ear a more palatable and equally valid translation would be great completion. In this context, perfect or complete does not imply a value judgement from the human perspective. It is more a recognition of the spontaneous presence of all enlightened qualities in our natural mind, always present and awaiting discovery. It suggests that we don't need to add or subtract anything or change anything to have access to unlimited potential for enlightened activity. We simply need to be open and unimpeded by our tendency to "collapse the wave function" (to borrow some quantum mechanics language); by our tendency to over-identify with a limited sense of "me" that excludes so many possibilities. For me this has strong parallels in Daoism, a few examples being concepts like ziran and wuwei, as well as the idea that Heaven, Earth, and the sage not being humane/benevolent but regarding people as straw dogs. In attending many dzogchen retreats over the past decade or so, this is one of the areas that causes the most consternation and frustration among developing practitioners. Of course there are many terrible things in the world, people suffer greatly and this is absolutely acknowledged in dzogchen and serves as the very basis and purpose for engaging in practice - namely, to liberate one's own being in order to benefit others. From the perspective of the samsaric being, the world can be a very tough, unforgiving, and dangerous place. From the absolute perspective, everything that arises is simply a function of the workings of karma and dependent origination. There is a sense of perfection or completeness in terms of the fact that if anything is changed, everything else changes. Nothing can be added or taken away or things would not be as they are. In this sense the whole is perfect and complete. I wonder if there is a parallel in Hindu systems relative to the inherent perfection/completeness of Brahman relative to the incompleteness and imperfection of maya... or something like that?

With the use of AI you can reach the AI (artificial immortality). I have not heard someone has achieved it but who knows may be you will be the first one in history who will achieve it.

There is an interesting Bönpo practice that is intended to actively exhaust the thinking mind so that it can release into stillness. You reflect on actions of the body, speech, and mind (each individually), taking enough time to really feel and pay attention to how much energy and effort have been expended over time, going as far back in memory as possible. Take as much time as necessary to get a sense of the shear magnitude of all of that expended effort and energy. When the experience reaches a peak and feels overwhelming, you simply let all of it go and rest in the stillness, silence, and spaciousness of the present moment, similar to the feeling of returning home from a long journey or exhausting day of work and settling into your favorite chair or bed and fully allowing body and mind to rest. It's a powerful technique.

Bah, there’s already a hundred “illuminated translations” out there. Going forward I am happy to represent the quale grokker community.

PS - some constructive criticism. If you are interested in an English translation that people can comprehend, that helps them understand the original, I would not use the words grok or quale. Only elderly science fiction fans would know the meaning of grok and quale is not a word in common usage.

Two men visit an abbot at a monastery at different times. The first man said, “I’m thinking of moving to this town. What is it like?” The abbot asked, “What was it like in your old town?” The first man responded, “It was terrible. Everyone was full of hate. I did not like it there.” The abbot said, “This town is very much the same. I do not think you should move here.” The first man left and the second man came in. The second man said, “I’m thinking of moving to this town. What is it like?” The abbot asked, “What was your old town like?” The second man responded, “It was wonderful. Everyone was nice and friendly. I was happy. Now, I just wanted a change of scenery.” The abbot said, “This town is very much the same. I think you will like it here.”

This may not be a symptom of progress. When the mind is truly quiet and open, not grasping, there are qualities that arise spontaneously - warmth, joy, compassion, and creativity, and there is some sense that anything satisfies. The absence of these energetic manifestations of the base is an indication that something is blocking our progress. Often it is an aberrant view such as nihilism or an unbalanced practice, prioritizing the mental over the physical and emotional, for example. Another common cause of this sort of deviation is bypassing, neglecting to bring our real life challenges onto the cushion, or neglecting to bring our practice into life's activities, in a way that supports genuine transformation. Something to consider if you feel like there is something lacking in your life or your practice.

Since this was posted in the Buddhist sub, here is a Zen story for this kind of condition, which ZM Seung Sahn turned into a kong an (koan): The Buddha only taught two things: Dukkha and the end of Dukkha. Dukkha is the dissatisfaction of not getting enough of the things we want, and too much of the things we don't. Getting one's emotions under control is good, but another step is needed. As Oldbob mentioned, desire can be a useful energy. In Zen terms, the desire to wake up our to our true selves keeps us on the path. And then, when we see that, we help others to do the same. To me, that is the ultimate teaching of the Buddha's enlightenment. He didn't just sit there with the knowledge of his true self. He shared it with the world. _/|\_ Keith

There's a very popular Chinese rapper who goes by the name Skai Isyourgod (Sky is your god) who peppers his songs with "mysterious" lines imitating or even citing daoist classics. "Sushi has come from the east. One yin, one yang, that is called the dao, purple qi arrives from the east." This is a veritable mass transmission -- his followers count in the tens of millions. This reminded me of something... Something about this thread... and many others by some resident dao rappers...

CD is not a troll, he is very genuine always. And his views are based on a lifetime of serious study and practice. All this agitation about a different opinion - should make you think about your own prejudices. If this was the case, it would be of the utmost importance to study CD's view - forewarned is forearmed. I second that.

This case is about basic psychology. In Daoism, nothing serious can be achieved without a teacher. That’s a law. But there are people who want to deceive the Dao and themselves. I have read on this forum that some people believe it's possible to achieve 'transmission of knowledge' directly from the Dao and that a teacher is not necessary. This approach is dangerous both for those who believe in this concept and for others to whom they spread these ideas. This is another reason why no one will widely share their practice and knowledge — these people will start inventing their own methods, achieving 'significant' results as they see it, and then teaching others while also making money from it. Such cases have happened more than once. ChiDragon is trying to convince himself that he is doing everything right, he doesn't need the opinions of others. He is here to teach. The outcome of such an approach leads to deviations that become increasingly difficult to correct over time, and in some cases some people can descend into madness. They no longer understand what is happening to them

I suggest you read more. All schools are so different. e.g. not all use LDT.

Maurice Druon, The Accursed Kings historical novels -- read them all as a teenager. For a while they made me an expert in medieval French history. I remember little by now, but I did remember the story of Jacques de Molay and was under the impression, for many years, that the curse concerned not just the Capetian dynasty but all of Europe. I don't remember why I interpreted it this way, but there you have it. The dynasty that went a long time before that one, the Merovingians, I find particularly interesting. In their heyday they established the largest kingdom in Western Europe after the fall of the Roman empire (if there really was such a thing as "the fall" -- to me it seems more like the refurbishing/recalibration). What I find special about them is that to this day, chronicles exist that officially derive their genealogy from a sea monster, a “quinotaur,” who had a relationship with the ancestress and produced Meroveh, the founder of the dynasty. This gave the dynasty sacral pre-Christian legitimacy—a ruler whose authority comes from the sea/chaos/the Other. (Just like Chinese emperors who derive their Mandate to rule from the dragon. Chinese dragons spend the first one thousand years as water creatures, then develop flight and take to the sky, the mountains, and the imperial court, as the case may be.)

Putting into question the existence of Chi and the Dao on a mainly daoist forum in a topic about the practice of neidan...... I'll leave it at that...

I found this article on Qi to be interesting. Can't say I agree with everything it says but some here may appreciate it. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10874819/ Despite its growing utility I would urge some caution in relying too heavily on AI to explain neidan, among other things, regardless of language. AI does not have the power of human discernment, something I consider important when it comes to meaningful understanding.

I have disagreed with some of your conclusions but I can see you’ve put a lot of work into this. I agree that qi=energy is weak and think that it should be just left as qi in translations. For me the distinction around neidan is about the Dan, the elixir or pill for immortality (ultimately). I think I am right in saying that (it’s been a while since I studied this) the birth of neidan as separate from external alchemy is first documented in the cantong qi and that terms from external ‘chemical’ alchemy were applied to internal subtle substances. This is why jing, qi and so on are conceived of as substances. Thank you for taking the time to do the translation.

AI and translator are only effective if the person is well versed with the subject and is able to find out the mistakes and correct them. If a person only reads a few websites and think he already knows everything and then use AI/translator, the result would be a disaster. Post such result on the web would spread the wrongs to subsequent usage by everyone. I do not trust AI as it even can't give correct info like fare, opening hours and so on.

Imagine thinking that AI would know information passed down orally by humans

While it is true that not everybody has the obligation to know what neidan is, mainly because it is, perhaps, the less spread of the spiritual systems, the misinformation that qigong and neidan are the same has to be stopped. We know that qigong is a modern umbrella term for several traditional practices more or less adapted (and sometimes diluted). Practices like yangsheng (not to be confused with yangshen), daoyin, neigong (either martial or medical), etc. were fused in one model: qigong. But neidan was not part of this process, although some neidan methods can be found from time to time in qigong systems. Besides, there is the difference in method and energy used (already explained by Antares).

Someone who says things like "all is perfect" but doesn't have that as their lived experience is actually creating MORE suffering for themselves and deserves compassion. In reality the "transcendent" doesn't exist. There is nothing to transcend. What one might think of the transcendent is always RIGHT HERE. When someone with this understanding says that things are "perfect", they don't mean "ideal" they mean that they can't be any other way in this moment. The causes and conditions of this moment have come together to create things as they are right now. This isn't ever a denial of suffering, it is a statement of how things are. The only reason for a person to continue speaking teachings is to benefit others, and compassion for the suffering of others is generally what drives that. Parroting teachings even by someone who doesn't have the realization to go with it can be beneficial, but denying the reality of someone's experience of suffering isn't kind, it's true. Someone with "attainment" would want to be of benefit to those who are suffering.

Within, lantern warms the scholar's simple study -- books, brushes, inks, cats.

I think the level analogy may be misleading, because it implies there is something to gain. I like the melting analogy (this is in classic Zen literature, such as Hakuin and Chinul) better because it captures the process a bit more precisely in my mind. A few points: 1. It is not either/or, it is a spectrum. Melting ice takes time, but there are certainly degrees. 2. It is about relaxing and letting go rather than picking something up. We have everything we already need, there is not something new to add. Rather, it is about opening and expanding more than anything. 3. The process is natural refines the more you do it. At first, it may be very gross, very conceptual, very effortful. These tend to reduce naturally on their own with practice. Ice is ice. A rough block sitting outside and a finely sculpted castle look very different, and function very differently, but their nature is the same.

My experience is that precisely the opposite is true. Realizing that "you" have never HAD control is the way forward. Mastering stillness from a Zen perspective is very much similar to the classic Tao model - you simply stop pushing against reality with your thinking mind. You stop feeding the cycle of thoughts and eventually the thinking mind tires and stillness arises naturally.

I thank all of you for the replies. Greatly appreciated. Personally doubt being enlightened at all. Just have a mind that is curious about the truth. Like the saying goes, there are three things that can not hide forever The Sun, the Moon and the Truth. I know the first two. Still working on the last one. Wonder about the world and its mysteries? Yeah, being a simple person, I do wonder at things I just don't understand. For example, why observing the electrons passing thru the double slit would change the outcome of the pattern behind the double slit? My wondering doesn't change anything. Other than confuse my mind for a moment. Then move onto other things. The world is full of paradoxes. And as human, we all just live with what there is. Being on a Forum allows me to express my thoughts and learn. I think learning is what keeps one open to new possibilities.

Yes, it does translate to metaphysics. 玄: dark, deep, hidden, or mysterious. 学: study, learning, or a field of knowledge. Historically, 玄学 also refers to a Chinese school of thought from the Wei–Jin period, and a scholastic approach to earlier Daoist texts. So our ability to determine whether all discussions of the Dao are "xuanxue" depends on which definition we use. Metaphysics is the study of the unseen, unknown, the mysterious. It is the study of the underlying fabric of reality. So all study of the Dao is literal 玄学. But the idea that the Dao is emptiness and ziran is the expression of this emptiness (the original inquiry of the thread), is strongly developed from the historical, scholastic 玄学 movement. This view influences much of how we discuss the Dao in modern context. Before the Wei–Jin 玄学 movement, Daoist discussion was framed less as an exact, comprehensively designed system, and more like guidance for living, governing, and cultivating life. As you know, in early texts like the Daodejing and Zhuangzi, the Dao is usually pointed to through images, paradox, and lived examples. You get lines like “the Dao that can be spoken is not the constant Dao,” or stories that show how forced control backfires. The focus stays on how to move through life: wuwei (not forcing), softness, timing, simplicity, protecting your vitality, and letting patterns unfold. Even when they use words like 无 (wu), it often works like “the generative absence that makes functions possible” (like the empty hub of a wheel, or the empty space in a bowl), rather than “emptiness” as a full metaphysical theory. And 自然 (ziran) reads more like “so-of-itself” or “things unfolding on their own,” not “the expression of emptiness." But the Wei–Jin 玄学 approach shifts the focus. It takes those earlier Daoist lines and tries to make them philosophically exact and defensible, which are later blended with Buddhist concepts: debates about 有/无 (being/non-being), what is “root” (本) and what is “branch” (末), and how a deeper “source” relates to the visible world. Commentarial reading becomes a major method, and the Dao starts getting discussed in more systematic, abstract terms–often as the underlying “non-being” that grounds “being,” with ziran framed as how that ground shows up in the world. That scholastic style is a big reason modern discussions of Dao define it as emptiness. So 玄学 describes the study of the unknown, and it also describes a historical movement that sought to define the unknown in exact, and yet paradoxically more abstract terms.

104 year old woman: "Dr Pepper is good it has sugar in it." 104 year old woman: "Two doctors have told me if I drink it I'll die." 104 year old woman: "But they died first."

I agree with what Luke said, it depends on the relationship between therapist and patient. A lot of traditional teachers have discovered that Western psychological treatments can be helpful to forming a healthy ego which, ironically, is often considered a prerequisite to transcending it. A lot of traditional teachings were developed in much different circumstances.

Easy on the bottle old3bob 😀