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This is going to be a difficult thread to write, because something of the most profound nature happened to me last night. I can offer no proofs other than a re-telling of my experience. As DB's, we can inadvertently get a little competitive, as evidenced by the occasional spats on the threads - but I ask you to set ego aside as I relate this. I offer this as a glimpse into what we all want here - enlightenment. About 7 months ago I moved to the Palm Springs, CA area after my husband died. The grief I experienced for over a year seems to have honed me in some way; like going through a fire and having the extraneous burned off. In the complex that I live in, there is a place I go daily to walk the dogs. I met the people who live right there because they have a dog that looks exactly like mine. We struck up a friendship. Unknown to me, the man in the duo is a Bujinkan master. He goes to Japan regularly to hone his incredible skills under Masaaki Hatsumi. He is a well known teacher of this incredible ninja martial art in the U.S.. and other parts of the world. I asked if he had videos online, and he indicated that there were several on youtube. I starting watching his videos and those of Masaaki Hatsumi. What I saw in them amazed me. It is the Dao brought into the physical. I recognized it immediately and confirmed it with him. Captivated for some reason, I watched them over and over - couldn't get enough. He gave me a study manual (much spiritual and psychological as well) and I've been reading it carefully. For some reason, this tying together of the Dao as a philosophy and the Dao in form (Bujinkan) was what I needed to see. I've talked about self-realization on this forum for a long time. Apparently I didn't know what it really was. I've walked the path of AA for 38 years and in working the steps, one removes layer after layer of shadow within - both through acknowledgment of the flaw and making amends for things done in the past. I knew I was on the path to self-realization (I used to go to Manley Hall lectures in Hollywood and the seed was planted early in me, in the 1970's). My association with TDB's has been just about the most instrumental vehicle for furtherance of this path because we come from so many points of view, and yet there are truths that lie at the bottom of these points of views, or paths, that are universal. After a while, rough edges and firm opinions within us are eliminated here. In addition to the study of multiple religions to the point of transcendence of any particular path. So, last night. I was walking the dogs before going to bed and I stopped and looked at the stars for a few moments. I was hit by a jolt of energy, seemingly coming from the stars, that I've never experienced in my life. I immediately thought about Saul on the road to Damascus, how he was hit by a jolt, from my old Christian days. I felt a little snap in my heart or brain, like someone snapping a small twig. Something unblocked. Immediately after being hit by this jolt which felt like an inner gulp of realization - not anything of the brain - I heard a voice in my head that said 'I AM an enlightened being'. I immediately felt energy rushing out of me, going in all directions. I started to tremble. I have been a proponent of the I AM consciousness for 20 years, ever since studying The Impersonal Life by Anonymous. Within this consciousness we realize who we really Are. But I know today that I had never taken the actual inner gulp of self-realization that I took last night, where I actually experienced it. At once, my whole essence had no fear, no discomfort, radiating warmth, and an overall feeling of love for everything. The realizations continued when I got home. I jotted them down so I could tell you about them today. First realization: There is a responsibility with enlightenment. It is our purpose as enlightened beings to act like an enlightened being, in speech and deeds. It doesn't matter what we do with it, on how big or little a scale. We are the torch bearers, the frequency holders. - We are all enlightened beings. Every single one of us. But it's not until we get that gulp of realization that we really are that we truly feel the truth of the matter. No doubt remains. No questions, no measurement of yourself vs. some master or fellow poster on the Bums. You know in your entire persona. Today I woke up with the thought 'I am an enlightened being' on my mind, first thing on waking up. The glow remains with me. I offer this experience to hear from others who may have gone through this, or as a little roadmap for what is no doubt coming for you too.

My initial experience of awakening was completely unexpected, completely unlike anything I'd ever read or could have anticipated, and yet I somehow knew precisely what had transpired. I felt it deep in my bones, no room whatsoever for questions or doubt. On the other hand it was also disorienting, particularly in trying to carry on with my family and professional life. The lack of conceptual context created sort of a cognitive dissonance between the discursive "me" and the abiding nature. Reconciling and integrating the self-awareness with mundane responsibility and obligations became challenging at times. Priorities changed but I wasn't ready or willing to give up my family and professional obligations. I knew there was room and validity for both the relative and absolute. Years later I encountered a teacher who was able to help me with that integration. The beauty is that it happened almost completely non-verbally and non-conceptually. I came to him looking for help contextualizing and integrating my experience. He told me almost nothing in words but his manner, his openness, his warmth and genuine caring caused something in me to click in a very profound way, bridging the relative and absolute through openness of the heart.

They are bodily fluids not some super duper energy potions. Do your thing and don't worry about yin and yang fluids worry about getting the job done properly.

Different people need different things at different times in their lives. I acknowledge and respect everyone's experience and opinion on systems and teachers. I don't so much appreciate all the bitterness and name calling. My own experience with systems has been extremely favorable, both in martial arts and meditation. I've never encountered a system that did not encourage freedom of application and the student's personal responsibility to put in the time and energy to have direct, personal experience and use that towards independent growth. Perhaps it's just been my good fortune to connect with the right systems and teachers. I suspect that most of it is what we bring to the table ourselves. The word system to me is not a bad word. It connotes some degree of organization and consistency, something that removes a bit of the unnecessary trial and error. Life is too short for each of us not to share in the successes and mistakes of others for guidance. On the other hand, no question that we need to take personal responsibility and not be overly dependent or limited by teachers and systems. I've had profound experiences and seen remarkable improvements in my life and personal growth through my association with my martial arts and meditation teachers and lineages. I feel deep gratitude, devotion, and trust; and consider myself blessed to have had the good karma to come into contact with them. I don't know where my life would be otherwise, although I am certain it would not be as rich and satisfying as it is now. Just thought it was worth a few minutes to give an opposing point of view for anyone practicing with or interested in connecting with established systems and teachers. You need to use caution and common sense but there is real value out there.

I wish everyone a happy new year, good friends and affordable rent! It feels like a well sized chunk of my psyche got set into place after following the threads here, so I thank everyone for contributing. And also thank the Universe for being profoundly honest and enduring. It's truly a great work, in whichever way it came to be.

good morning world ! you are SO beautiful today! outside my window soft sweet snow cushions and covers your cold hard still body but you are not really cold nor terribly hard nor is your motion frozen your heart is filled with swirling fire and our father sun will awaken that thin crisp life you show us where our mortal eyes touch you well, both you and we are simply gross physical manifestations of something both deeper and higher, aren't we" tho few of US know it and the few of us who do, usually forget it i'll wager you are always aware good morning world you are so beautiful every day

Thanks for this thread - very interesting read. It made me think of this: So even Jesus who was not exactly the most popular with the priesthood - fulfilled the law - which I take to mean he fulfilled the lineage. In other words he correctly understood and embodied what the lineage teachings were talking about - while the priests had fallen into ritual observance (they may of course understood some of it but not all of it or indeed the central purpose). I would also add that although it is true that realisation or awakening can be understood as living in the present moment in awareness of the true nature of reality - here and now - it is also true to say that we each carry a long history. A personal lineage if you like in our bodies or perhaps in our beings. So there is a sense of fulfilment of an ancient purpose in our work.

Zen Pig put out some great advice. Resistance only attracts and it’s a nothing thing unless you get all bent out of shape - demons can be eaten for breakfast on toast - unless you worship them in fear like many religions teach. Like an elephant terrified of a mouse. Sex is completely natural - but again religious condemnation makes it wildly exciting - access to porn everywhere kinks it - lay off the hard stuff and find your way in all of this. Worry is the biggest drain of all - and it accomplishes nothing. Religious dogma can be tossed aside in exchange for a mature view. This whole idea of draining oneself through sex is like worrying that you will dry out if you cry too many tears. It is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay overblown.

All the experience of being an immortal, and none of the responsibility of paying off my student loans. What's there not to like?

I'm stuck on the opening header: I'm trying to understand this sentence. Subject: "Matrix Film type" Verb: "Interfaced" (past tense) Direct object: "People" So far so good, but what were the people interfaced in to? "a Duplicated Population Simulation Argument Reality Combination" What the hell does this mean? Is this is combination? Is this is an argument? Is this is simulation? I hate to nit-pick.. Actually, that's a lie. I love to nit-pick, and there are too many nits in this sentence for me to pick. The opening topic is supposed to be powerful. It's supposed to draw the reader in. This topic tells me to run the hell away!

Hi everyone, thank you for this space. I have been looking for a community to read and share experiences for a while, and you guys give me a good feeling, so here I am. I have been trying to find my way into inner exploration for some time now, but I am still all over the place. I have been reading and listening a lot in the hope that certain ideas would eventually "click", but sometimes I have the impression that I am just adding to the confusion. I have tried to meditate to reduce the noise, but I am having a hard time finding a practice that suits me and doesn't throw me into mental or emotional states that I cannot manage. So far it feels like I have just been stirring dirt instead of clearing the water. I hope we can have some good discussions while I figure things out

Hello to All, What started a few years ago as a quest for health (95% solved) has evolved into a quest for energy. To this end, my primary interests right now are qigong and consciousness. I've been practicing zhan zhuang every day for a year now, eight brocades for ~5 months, and inner smile meditation for ~4 months. I reached a comfortable 90 minutes in chenbao, and recently I've returned my focus to wuji. I am seeking the highest state I can achieve, spiritual, mental and physical; with no particular limit to this goal. At the moment I am cross-referencing Yang Jwing-Ming and Mantak Chia, with the aim to develop embryonic breathing and small circulation, with the further aim to master semen retention and large circulation; so I may begin to conserve and refine my energy, and see for myself what a human bodymind can really accomplish. I look forward to learning here and hope that my thoughts may be of help to someone, someday.

It is interesting to read and listen to Awakened teachers that have come from a long established lineage as well as teachers that have Awakened and then adopted a long established lineage as their teaching. It is also interesting to see Awakened teachers using their own words from the present and often changing the typical fashion of going about helping students to be pointed in practice and general sniffing around trying to get a clue what this “illusion” thing is all about. There is no question that there are benefits to a great well established lineage. And it is very possible for an Awakened teacher to adopt a lineage in which they have no prior base. But I am acutely aware that many of the past lineages of the very best and most productive sorts have wording and dogma that make it nearly impossible to clarify in a new students mind even the slightest whiff of what they are actually alluding to and teaching. Some of the most refreshing and superb Awakened teachers are uncompromisingly direct and clarify the “project” of Awakening so simply and so well that by comparison many extraordinary old lineages appear to actually create more detours than road maps by entailing incalculable destinations and using words and structures of teaching that are basically misleading by their vary exactness. I am not starting this topic with any objection - it is a remembrance that when I Awoke the experience was so utterly and completely unlike anything I had read anywhere in the great ancient traditions that I was completely unsure of what had transpired. And it is in this remembrance that this topic is created. I am from the “long” traditions - lots of practice and the idea that perhaps in ten lifetimes you might Awaken - they are in many ways as perfect as they are full of bullshit. Yet some of the emerging short forms - particularly those engineering quick Awakening are also very questionable. But some new teachings are very clear and offer real lasting abiding Awakening from simple yet strong well worded contemporary guidance. What cannot be expressed very clearly to many reading this is that once Awakened some stupidly simple teachings are clearly seen to be among the very best teachings to Awaken and some of the most superb and complex lineages make it nearly impossible to see the Forrest through the trees. Some seemingly very simple Awakened teachers are unquestionably the best pointers to truth and best practices for Awakening to Self, while some of the most authoritative Awakened teachers from some of the oldest and finest lineages are simply so immersed in initiations and transmissions and proper progress that they have put the cart before the horse to a great extent - as though teaching post Awakening work is best done prior to Awakening. It is tempting to utilize an old and wonderful lineage as an Awakened person considering or being brought into teaching - everything is already laid out and easily tweaked where one would like and students can plug into the tradition. It can also radically slow further progress in one’s post Awakened unfolding. And deep within one Awakened can wonder if teaching is what will be happening if at all. I also partly bring this up because of how brutally some “advanced” seekers judge “simple teachers” who are often obviously to those Awake of the highest attainment and often speak little from any lineage at all.

Devotion and Worship may be something you secretly dispise or are attracted to. It can be for some a sign of giving up on autonomy and or willful self journeying and isolation from mass hysteria and lazy followership. But it has nothing to do with these things - though all elements of human frailty may be found as is true everywhere. In abiding wakefulness grace is ever present - gratitude pours forth to nothing - it is not in devotion - it is the light But Devotion simply dawns - it dawns as one sheds the ebbing rude coarseness that stood solid on so many willful grounds of insanity and ignorance. In the beautiful stillness - the boundless Presence - the magnificence and majesty - Devotion is camaraderie with the highest light. It is attending a dance with Angels. IN NOTHING great transcendence radiates within - one cannot but be in devotion. It is not a choice or a falling or failing - it is the twilight of all holding - the touch of one finger to the hand of Divine Essence in Living Light. Love unbounded - unbinding

Well what a happy post.

Even in your words here, you are somehow defining Unity consciousness as a thing, and then that it is somehow different than some other thing that you are calling awakening. None of these are defined terms, also I know of no tradition where two such things both exist and are separate things. Maybe it would be helpful if you could use some tradition framework and their terms. But to me, as ilumarien pointed out above, words no matter how pretty are simply words. True realization is “radiated” and can be easily felt.

My concern is that it is more about the interpretation of the wording. That people are trying to map some experience they have had to awakening/realization, when they are not the same level of realization. That someone may have had something like an opening of the heart experience and then declare it as the same as emptiness of self in their mind. They then believe they are “done”, when they have simply begun, and in essence trapping themselves in a new “spiritual” ego state. Like giving themselves trophys for simply participating...

hmmmmmm. so i take it that you want all of us to know that you are awakened? Just pulling you non-existent, non-ego leg. I have also had experiences that transcend description, but just seeing the connection to everything, no gaps, and the amazing wonder of it all is as close as i can come to speaking of it. With that said, I don't have a fucking clue what the term, or word "awakening" means. For me, it is a label folks put on themselves or the so called "spiritual teachers" that gives them a "special" standing in the spiritual community, (such as it is), that says, "I made it, now I know shit". LOL Been at this cat and pony show for some time, talked to adyashanti, and others, and never seen anyone who "destroyed ego". Maybe someone has, but then again, they are probably not posting on these kinds of links and talking through there asses like I am right now. Ego is as much a part of the human experience, (at least for me) as eating, shitting, laughing, crying and everything else that makes us human. For me, it is just that this so called ego, doesn't have the power I once gave it. while it is still a part of me, it is not in the drivers seat, but others experiences could be very different. who knows.

How has Buddhism wounded you so badly that you attack in some form or another almost daily?

I would suggest that it's more a testament to manitou, her fearlessness, and compassion for our members.

I do agree that there is a time to find someone who can show you the basics or meditation, and can also be a sounding broad for the common problems that arise. this saves time, and a lot of head ache's trying to figure it out for oneself. While I never had a guru, I have gained much form folks who could help me when I got stuck. But from my experience, my path does not include comparing myself with an Olympic spiritual athlete. In martial arts, there is always someone who can do things, move, react, focus better than me. When young i trained every day, hours a day in MA. today, i train with friends about 10 hours a month. Just playing. for me, meditation is like play. like exploring the forest, just for the hell of it, without trying to find anything, to become anything, to get better at anything, to improve myself, never going to be a guru, or a holy person, or even Bruce Lee for that matter, or even an enlightened person, what ever that means.... just laying here in the mud .

I’m curious what led you to conclude that it is impossible to cultivate concentrated awareness without positive emotion. In my training, such a state is achieved through zhiné, not through any sort of cultivation of emotion or positive feelings. Perhaps there are traditions that emphasize the emotional component, I’m interested to hear about them. Both positive and negative states of mind arise on and off the cushion while cultivating samadhi and both are treated similarly - we notice them and allow them to arise, remain, and depart as they will without interference. Samadhi leads to the ability to abide without influence or disturbance by transient states of mind. Once achieved one does experience a much deeper, more stable source of positive qualities like the four immeasurables. I do know cultivating positive states of mind is a path in that direction. I think what you are asking about is wonderful but not necessarily the path to samadhi, at least not in the teachings I’ve been exposed to. One thing I do to cultivate positivity is to open my heart, make eye contact, and smile at everyone I encounter. Good luck on your path.

Have had this about three times in the over 10 years of long term daily sitting. Mostly , for me it feels like a kind of 'roid rage" where I am not angry but very anxious, areas on the body feeling like electric sparks are hitting it. disconnected. The last time this happened was doing to much neigung reverse breathing. It usually happens when I forget to just have fun in meditation. just sit to sit. while i still do some other forms of dantian/hara breathing , I just watch the breath, and don't try to get anything out of it. that seems to let the energy calm down. Also going out side sitting on the ground, touching trees, etc, helps a lot, have no idea why. don't know what works for others.

Before scaring everyone I need to point something out. Most people simply don’t train enough to get any of these problems. Secondly most people also don’t have the ‘energetic awakening’ necessary to develop any meaningful amount of Qi. Also most Qi Gong that’s available to the public is based on imagination... and mostly creates imaginary results. Of course imagination practice can cause its own host of issues - but again it takes several hours of intense practice every day - most people don’t do that much. If you’re serious about the internal arts, you’ve probably found a good teacher who should be able to help you navigate around any issues or pitfalls. Qi Gong Chu Pian - Qi Gong Deviation. Generally it’s the result of reversed flow in a channel. Generally not too serious. Can cause pain and tremors when not practicing (tremors and pain during practice is normal). Usually it’s because of incorrect practice... being too forceful with intention or too much contrived directing of energy. Zou Huo Ru Mo - Entering The Fire. Slightly more serious than the above. Basically the body gets too yang and starts burning up. It’s often because of some underlying condition. It can cause the surfacing of psychological conditions... usually mania. If it’s not tended to it can create long term psychotic episodes, mood swings, aggression etc. Gu Zheng - Steaming of the Bones This results from depleting the Yin of your body. Basically it feels like your bones are producing heat, you feel restless, can’t sleep and get night sweats. Caused by excessively leading energy with the mind... forcing the microcosmic orbit... too much visualisation... also during some Nei Dan processes. Common in dedicated Healing Tao practitioners. Du Huo Gong Xin - Poison Fire Tainting the Heart Another common one amongst HT practitioners, Guru types or anyone heavily focusing on sexual practices and ‘retention’. This one I believe is the most dangerous one. It’s one thing to mess yourself up, but this condition will often go unnoticed and start to affect other people around the practitioner. Basically it’s a ‘base desire deviation’. Results in an obsession with sex/money/power... Often creates sexual deviancy (desire to dominate sexually, ‘corrupt/destroy innocence’ etc) Also desire to dominate people (lust for power) and an obsession with wealth. There’s many other subtle ones. Too much Qi in the head (often results in increase of ‘intelligence’ but in a confused, manic way... Drew’s behaviour would be a classic example) Stagnation based issues... often from too much meditation or incorrect quality of focus in internal practices. Results in sluggish and dull mind and body. Often meditation feels very nice and peaceful, but it’s in fact just going into a dull sedated trance state. Very common in meditators. There’s so many other pitfalls. Often from useful openings happening at the wrong time in someone’s development. Results in the ‘dark night of the soul’... deep depression etc. Again this often happens in meditators without a teacher and without energetic inner transformations necessary to create the right conditions for the expanding consciousness.

I believe the pieces are here, in 28 pages (for those who sit cross-legged, the appendix has the anatomy). Nothing but pieces, things have to fall together on their own (as usual). I'd be grateful for any contributions around personal experience. The concluding paragraph: 'I'm never happier than when simple mindfulness of just breathing in or breathing out occurs in me. That I find a natural mindfulness of breathing in or breathing out in the distinction of the senses and the recollection of the elements that constituted Gautama's way of living, gives me hope that his way of living is indeed “a thing perfect in itself”.' ("Post: A Natural Mindfulness", May 14 2016) A Natural Mindfulness

Mu

In the case of Lahiri Mahasaya it was a bit different. Lahiri Baba was the one to codify Kriya for the householders. His Guru known only as Babaji taught 108 different practices. Lahiri Baba being a reincarnated yogi of this one he named Babaji was already a married man. Upon meeting this otherworldly ascetic and having his memory restored he wanted nothing more of the world of man. He begged to be released from being a householder and longed to return to the far reaches of the Himalayas with his Guru. His Guru said No! He was to return to family life. There were a few more discussions and eventually Lahiri asked he be allowed to teach others his gurus practices as the average householder had no chance of a better life just work, family obligation and internment without any degree of realization, which even slight amount can be a balm to the world. His Guru essentially said fine, if you want to help so bad then it is on you, take my 108 practices and distill what householder can perform realistically. Lahiri Baba did. He broke the 108 into the most essential. Maha Mudra Yoni Mudra Kriya Pranayam Navi Mudra and Kechari Mudra without which one was ineligible for Higher practices. Lahiri called these Kriya yoga. Which means action of the soul. Lahiri after being granted his full memory of his past lives as a Himilain Yogi. Changed from the man his wife once knew. In time she came to realize after many phenomenal experiences made it clear her husband was not just an ordinary man. One such incident she would retell years later was finding her husband not only meditating at the foot of their bed eschewing sleep as was his habit, but levitating with a host of angels conversing with him. In short order his wife asked for his initiation into Kriya Yoga. She became his disciple or Chela and they remained husband and wife until the day he left the body. Committed, Loving, Caring adult relationship. I learned from their great grandson Shibendu his Great Grandfather was still the loving servant to his wife. She would put together the grocery list and he half drunk with Paravastha State of Kriya lovingly went to the market and purchased what his wife desired. In the West we are very confused. The enlightened Guru was the servant to his wife. Consider this. I do.

Hey Every One, It has been ages since I stuck my head into the Dao Bums realm. I don't even remember my old email and password it has been so long. I hope you are all doing well, and perhaps I can rejoin the main discussions. Peace and Blessings, Lin

I miss you too, everyday.

Not throwing stones in my own glass house here, but I see more and more how conditioned we are by our social upbringing. I have discussed this before in a charming story of how Robert Thurman's Tibetan teacher told him that he did not need to meditate so much because as a pre-programmed westerner, he could never drop his conditioned world view in order to become enlightened. bet that was a real knee slapper for him. I see so many spiritual seekers, and so called "awakened or enlightened" folks who still hold the boolean "all or nothing" , "yes or no", "real, or unreal, world views. If something is not real, like a dream, we call it Illusion, or that it really does not exist. If something is Real, (like my tv remote or smart phone) LOL, then we say that "this is real, material, we can all see it and discuss it". But when I was younger, and had dreams where I did not know I was dreaming, I could sit with a group of people at a table, and we agreed that we were all there, maybe eating food, that I could taste, feel, and that world was as "real" as this world, until I awoke, and saw that it was now, "unreal" or "Just a dream". So my mind was and is preconditioned to believe all or nothing, real/unreal, right/wrong. Can something be both real and unreal at the same time? do the terms "real, unreal" make any sense? for that matter, do the terms, "right/wrong", good/bad make sense as a mental label.? I have seen very bad people do good things, and vice versa. I have seen dreams that I "knew" were real at the time, but then upon awaking, "Knew" that they were unreal. Maybe just letting go of these ideas and beliefs, and just viewing the universe, life, everything as it unfolds without making a mental label for them. doubt we can let go completely, but maybe a little at a time. who knows?

Buddhism and Daoism come from different traditions but they have historically mixed symbiotically especially in China - so there exist what you might call hybrid systems - although I don't really buy that term I'll use it anyway - like Ch'an/Zen for instance which is Daoist influenced Buddhism. Obviously Buddhism originated in ancient India from the sramana tradition - sramanas being wandering mystics for whom the sage-king was the ideal - other traditions emerged from here also such as Jainism (which has some similarities to Buddhism). The Buddha's main stress and indeed starting point was the individual's experience of life and how the cyclical world (samasara) was a projection arising through ignorance and desire. So the remedy lay in taming the mind by removing ignorance and cutting through our grasping at things. Mind here is usually 'citta' as in 'bodhicitta' = awakened mind and does not mean our thoughts as such but the basis of awareness - or indeed the 'substance' in which awareness/perception arises. Closer perhaps to the word consciousness as mentioned above - although there are technical difficulties with this also I think. It is hard to say exactly when Daoism arose - as although Lao Tzu's Daodejing was written about 500 BC it is not necessarily a foundational text and older classics such as the Yijing contain at least proto-Daoist ideas. What most people in the West focus on is the Daoist techniques of energy working such as qigong and inner alchemy (neidan). These arose out of Chinese medicine and martial arts. As Daoism is in a sense realist as the dao itself, heaven and earth, yin/yang and so forth as considered 'real' and not mental projections it does not have the same basis as Buddhism. However as I said above there has been so much cross cultural influence historically that some schools a can sound almost indistinguishable. It is also more or less certain that Neidan influenced the development of Buddhist tantra - even though tantra itself is an Indian approach developed from secret clan and kaula tantras in both 'Hindu' and Buddhist sects. The goal of Buddhism is to become a Buddha (or Arhat) and thus awakened in the sense that Buddha meant it. The goal of Daoist neidan is immortality (which may be understood as physical or spiritual) - and unlike Buddhism there is always a sense of harmony with something beyond ourselves, rather than mind awakening. You should follow whatever system you have a strong connection to - which is what you have to decide I guess

Hi, I am from Estonia and 42. I´m so happy, that I found that place here. Looking forward to learn a lot about qigong and spiritual growth. I have started Flying Phoenix qigong practice and I am also interested of Hermetism. Wish You all my very best wishes and hope You all find, what You are looking for. Kind regards!

Your question implies that you believe that all awakenings are the same. And hence all lineages are the same. I do not. View affects outcome. One persons awakening is another persons mental burp.

What is your definition of Awakened?

And I would suggest... Both, same time.

Ya but the thing is, the whole planet is one big blue ball no matter what you get up to. Just gotta look higher up the tree at the yellow star.

Thank you, @steve. I wanted to comment on this yesterday and have been thinking about a way to broach the topic since. You've said it beautifully.

As the process of abiding as awareness unfolds, one encounters following one of three conditions - actively abiding as awareness with no or negligible other contents of the mind. A apparent departure from condition 1, with a lot of contents of the mind. There seems to be an obfuscation of the “true nature” as one is caught up in the drama of samsara. Abiding as awareness but many thoughts and emotions flow naturally , with no attachment to them. Condition 2 is remedied as soon as one recollects the fact that one is awareness in which dramas of samsara rise and fade away. Even the thought “I am no longer abiding as awareness” is a recognition of the Self as awareness, and realizing this gives one the freedom to be, without suffering from guilt or fears of “losing” condition 1. This realization and associated relaxation results in condition 3 naturally arising. It is that simple. Feel free to discuss

They’re not layers. They are the nature of the Self Trying to shed them will be like the sun trying to shed light and heat. Not possible.

Make a concerted effort to breath into the abdomen on a regular basis. In sitting silence imagine a sheet of paper that has any agreements and Co-mingling of energy between you and the person you have been speaking about - then imagine/know/see it burn up and be done with - not out of resistance but simply null and void and no longer in agreement. You can physically do this if it makes it more real - a small note pad or sticky note: “all agreements and energetic entanglements are now null and void and I am no longer in agreement to any association” Then burn it up literally. Breathing into the abdomen regularly will help to burn up fears and the outer edges of those things that bare down on your limits. It will also strengthen your general energetic fields and subtle bodies. Breath your energy around you somewhat close to around a foot or so out from the gross physical. For most people further than that makes them “spaced out”. Be good to yourself and abide in a higher vibration. Cast aside victim hood - breath into the abdomen as though you are breathing in a fresh cool stream. This person has little power but great confidence. His problems and delusions are not yours. But do see what confidence is capable of - breath into the abdomen and build your energies - have them and feel the soles of your feet under you. Be good to yourself and treat yourself and you will come to your Self. Siddhis both seen and unseen are simply abilities - all of them are capable of seduction - as well as great insight and creativity. It is not so far as you think that one day you can eat demons for breakfast and then have a cup of tea for desert. This guy is nothing substantial - move from the shade he casts. Move to the light you radiate.

This is great advise from rainbowvein Once we have made an energetic connection with another, the mind can easily connect with that energy with any thought of that person. I know the difficulty in breaking these connections. In time, with a refocused mind, one can be free. Energy seals, If we can remain empty so there is nothing to hit is the key. Abandon all thoughts of this person negative or positive to not give it any energy. If the attacks continue use emptiness, it is not you, lead that energy to emptiness. When his energy hits this space it will amplify as it travels back to him with no resistance or thoughts of your own. Even the energy of this thread is an attraction, it will keep you connected, cut the root. To not mess with your own karma and destiny do not identify yourself as doing something about it, remove the target, lead the negative energy to emptiness and let it ground out. Good luck, the situation is changing.

Hi 2ndchance, Great topic! You seem like your asking the right questions and on the right track. Our true nature is love ... a universal love that like the sun- shines on everyone. Rather than making it happen with emotions, the way I do it is to Be still, be present in the moment... and I find the love and peace comes out on its own. We have to get out of our own way (stop effort) and it comes out by itself. Think of a pond. When the pond is still, the dirt settles to the bottom and the water becomes clear. But when you do a bunch of stuff, it kicks up mud and dirt and the water becomes dirty. Just try to be still and see if the water becomes clear on its own.

Hi Uselis, Just a few thoughts. It seems like you have had a disorientating energy experience and that this has occurred because you have done intense practice without first laying the foundations for this. You are not alone. Many people come on here having experienced something of this nature. And it is not permanent - but you need to convince yourself of this. I suspect the intensity of the energy is making it hard for you to assess yourself and your situation. You need to ground or earth the energy, calm down a little bit and reassess. You say you can't do practical things - like gardening - and ironically this is the kind of thing that might help. Simple practical tasks which might help you redirect your attention from your internal state. I would recommend that you make yourself do something like this at first for half and hour or so everyday. Or if not go for a short walk and make it longer each day - something like that. You could also try just standing still for as many minutes that you can manage and consciously relaxing the body - then think that surplus energy is draining out of your body into the earth through the soles of your feet. If you can find someone local who knows about K. then even better. Best wishes A.

Great story, and no, one cannot prove any of these "ah-ha" experiences. I relate to the energy you experienced. years ago, I was walking out of our shop on campus, just thinking of nothing, and had an experience, which cannot be described. All I can say that part of it, felt like I had been carrying 500 pounds around with me all my life, and suddenly it was gone. I was amazed how much energy we waste trying to keep up our ideas and beliefs about what we think "is". The one thing I have learned with these experiences, that for me, as amazing as that was, there is no end. no finial goal. for me, it is a never ending seeing and unfolding, and the more it happens, the more human we become, owning our humanity, not pushing away things because of fear or sadness. Happy for you.

For a brief moment I thought this topic said "Freedom from Goats"...

Hello everyone, I live in Australia. I have been reading the Daode Jing / Tao Te Ching for the past 12 months. I really enjoy "The Wisdom of Laotse". It brings me great peace. I've been looking at your site here for a while and I like what I see, so today, when I looked at it again today I was 'nudged' to join. Looking forward to being part of your community

Thank you all for the warm welcome! I'm glad to hear I'm in the right place. I look forward to some interesting conversations, and to understanding what's going on, why and next steps.

I want to point something out. There is talk of predatory behaviour amongs spiritual teachers. Actually I think it’s something much more commonplace and boring. With any increase in jing, qi or shen, there’s always an increase in the projection of the darker, untransformed aspects of self. (And actually you don’t need spiritual practices for this. Just being in a position of power naturally increases jing/qi/shen.) Imagine having a torch (flashlight) that’s a little dirty. The bit of light that does shine through is a little dimmer and distorted by the dirt - the light is dim yes, but the shadows are also hazy. But imagine increasing the power of the bulb by many hundreds of times... now those bits of dirt take on a sharper more distinct form. Thats why it’s so common for gurus (or even lay people with a bit of power) to seek to liv out their base desires (for power and sex). Im sure that in many cases these teachers start out with benevolent aims... it’s just these aspects of ourselves, powered by the increase in energy insidiously subvert our minds. Often unnoticeably. This is why in most long-standing classical traditions the bar for teaching was set so high. You can’t be a spiritual teacher just coz you feel that way. There’s a whole host of inner transformations to go through that are tested and verified by peers before one can teach any students. Sadly in the new age all of this is forgotten - because ‘everything is an illusion’ and ‘youre already enlightened’ and that ‘you should follow your heart’ etc etc.

I've only read a handful of posts on the last few pages. Is it any wonder that some people who may have some experience or knowledge limit their sharing here? I deeply respect my teacher and our lineage. The teachings I've received are rare and precious. The amount of time and energy I've invested, the sacrifices I've made make, not to mention those who came before making it possible for it to reach me... No way I'm going to subject all of this to the sort of disrespect, argument, and denigration I sometimes see here. We need to begin to respect each other and each others points of view if we are ever to open up to each other and benefit from that. We need to take ourselves a little less seriously (maybe a lot). We need to trust and have foundation for trust. It seems that many looking for the Way without a personal teacher, whether it be through study, ritual, or practices, think they will find it outside in something new they learn, in some line of scripture, some prayer, or some breathing or qigong technique. The first thing a teacher of the Way will show you is that it is deep in you already and will not be found anywhere else. It is in every word, thought, and action you take. It is the Way we relate to others, our surroundings, and to ourselves. Look anywhere else and you are simply indulging yourself in mind games. Sorry if I sound preachy but mixing priceless teachings with so much bullshit makes me sad.