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Sri Matre Namaha and Namo Amitabha Buddhaya, Hello everyone, Just passing through. I was informed of a few deaths and saw that I was mentioned a number of times since my departure for a couple years. I was reminded of my mortality many times in my pilgrimage the last year, and immediately after while repairing relationships since then after some shifts. Here I am sharing a few insights I wanted to share that re-contextualizes past conflicts here and has vastly improved my life. 1. I was diagnosed last year shortly after turning 41 that I have Autism and ADHD--otherwise known as AuDHD. This means I am tone deaf and sound a lot angrier or more argumentative than I need to be without realizing how it would be perceived by others. My info dumping is a feature of neurodivergence, and this can be seen as being disingenuous by others, even if I and many people like me believe that clarity will help free people from wrongful assumptions and mischaracterizing my intentions. My hyperreactivity also comes from rejection sensitivity dysphoria, or RSD, a feature of ADHD. Many times I would perceive some remarks from people as a personal attack and overreact. It is better to assume good intentions and take the loss before getting into an argument since nobody wins. 2. Cultivation absolutely affects my condition for better or for worse. The right cultivation with qi, diet, and spiritual balance (separate from energy work) can moderate the physiological and neurological differences in my body. The wrong cultivation can make them worse, especially when bringing excess energy to my head. It is not my business if people want to do practices that can harm them, as they are not my students and I am not an expert, I am just a specialist at best. I don't get paid to argue and I don't teach for free. 3. Anyone and everyone can eventually be better when we yield that responsibility back to them and God/Dao/the Universe I lost many friends, including TDB member Nature Beeing or Beeing Nature, also known as Natursein on YouTube, who passed several months ago of Liver Cirrhosis around April or May as his partner informed me via WhatsApp. Some of those relationships were healed just before these people died, and some never got that resolution. As I can't wait for others to come around, it is on me to work on myself and be better instead of waiting for them to come around as a prerequisite to improving myself or reconciling. 4. Neurodivergence does make me more sensitive to energy and spirits Before my diagnosis, I noticed things in nature that I didn’t realize others couldn’t perceive. After my diagnosis, my therapist told me it’s common for us to see things and because I see better when relaxed and peaceful while when stressed I don’t perceive anything easily, I realized neurodivergence is a unique operating system, As such, I read oracles better, can notice energy quickly, and as there are several levels of third eye opening, I can sense the other side a bit better, but still need more refinement since it could be a lot more given the new responsibilities given to me by new teachers whom I have met. Anyway, that's all I wanted to say. I will stay around for a week or so to answer any questions if people had any related to my practices or me. Otherwise, you can visit my new site at innerexpeditions.squarespace.com. Thank you everyone. Sri Matre Namaha and Namo Amitabha Buddhaya.

Saw this, and it felt a bit like gatekeeping. It's the most powerful form of qigong out there, and is not locked behind an academy paywall and a guru-like teacher. I switched now to just standing and nothing else on energetics. 40mins in ball holding pose, as recommended in Marc Cohen's book Inside Zhan Zhuang. My body becomes more supple, looser as the time progresses, not harder or stiffer. An important part of that is body scanning and allowing knots of tension to release. There are experiences when tension and hardness suddenly dissolve, after which the body feels light and soft. I would advise trying it for yourself. If you feel stiffer and more stuck, as Damo intimates, then switch to wuji or moving forms. But don't take his word as gospel, without trying for yourself.

Edit: just for clarification, this is an extract from Inside Zhan Zhuang by Mark Cohen. Apologies to the author, but he's probably able to better express the point than me. On a personal level, I'm also opposed to black and white, absolutist positions on this subject. Maybe zhan zhuang is inappropriate for some beginners, and less so for others. Maybe wuji is better for some beginners, maybe less so for others. The importance is listening to your own body and responding appropriately. And always exercise critical thinking when it comes to Internet authorities.

Well, ergot fungus is not part of rye, it's an infection that can contaminate rye more readily but it can also spread to wheat, barley, oats etc.. So simply preventing this infection takes care of LSD. A better question is, what about gluten and cereal grain lectins stimulating the opioidergic system in the gut and the brain to produce endogenous opioids -- similar to morphine, codeine, opium etc.? Which explains why it has seduced our civilization into an ages-long drug addiction (which consuming those grains really is...) And why does our body release endogenous painkillers (for both the body and the psyche) in response to being presented with gluten and cereal lectins? Because that's what it does in response to being hurt, damaged. So the cycle goes on -- you eat that stuff, you hurt and damage your body, the body releases feel-good chemicals... and a grain "civilization" is born.

Thank you all for your kind words and thoughts. I feel your love and support and value your friendship.

This question is quite unanswerable. Whether 2 systems are compatible can only be answered by the teachers of the 2 systems. But seldom does a teacher happen to know another system in depth. In the old days when the very original system has been taught, undiluted and unadulterated for centuries. Then another teacher may have sufficient knowledge on that system. But these days many system are recent inventions, or significantly altered, then outsiders would have no idea on what is going on.

Substance literally means what stands under ... so for instance the substance of a table might be wood. So the wood is more 'basic' or underlying in the sense that if there were no wood there would be no table (provided it is a wooden one). In the case of internal alchemy the substance(s) are what lies behind appearance. The deeper you go the more 'real' you get ... in the sense of being without dependence on anything beneath. I think the question 'is the MCO real' is the wrong one. It would be better to ask 'does it work?' or 'what does it do?' or perhaps 'how do you make it work' but this question gives rise to the general question 'can you make it work or does it just happen'. Most if not all energy exercises/techniques or practices simply replicate intentionally things that happen naturally. So a certain breathing practice if done with conscious will simply replicates something that would arise naturally if the circumstances arise. For instance vase breathing, abdominal breathing, embryonic breathing and so on are all like this (in my experience). I would put the MCO in the same category. The danger in practicing without first achieving deep meditational states is that you replace the genuine cycling of energy with an imagined substitute which does not and cannot hit the spot so to speak. But equally you have to gain some familiarity with the subtle body and its workings in order to progress and so as you absorb intellectually the principles of the working of the subtle body this in itself stimulates it into action.

Thread locked. I'm sorry but we no longer allow political subjects to be discussed here.

Interesting conversation (I'm sure we've all discussed this many times on this board). FWIW, we should never do just standing. Standing should be complemented by moving. So in the context of Taijiquan, if we stand (beginners should not stand for more than 5-10 minutes and slowly build up standing time) - it builds power, we should also practice a moving form to circulate the power. If people only stand, they can end up damaging their kidneys or other health problems. Another thing about standing, imho, is that the mental state is very important - one must be "sung" in the mind as well as the body.

As far as I understand, to get into Master Wang's retreat now, the process is as follows: You need to attend one of the basic seminars with one of his students, Nathan is one of them, and learn the basic skills there, mastering sitting for three hours. After that, they'll tell you where Master Wang's next retreat is. Master Wang no longer holds retreats for beginners, so there's no real public information. You need to keep in touch with someone who knows Master Wang personally, and then you can find out the next date. And most likely, there won't be any more public beginner retreats. Another option is to go to Dalian, where Master Wang lives, stay there for a while, and then you can attend a retreat; he regularly holds retreats there for advanced students.

I am still here arguing with some old timers. Arguing with the same old things. I hope I'll never win. If I do, then, there is nothing to do here anymore.

Well it is a theory that fighting the evil forces is better than sitting in the view of no view. Since there is no separation, releasing all aggression results in changes for humanity that can be felt tangibly. Imagine tomorrow 5 billion people held no aggression anymore, what difference that would make?

Sam Bercholz, the founder of Shambhala publications, had an NDE where he went to hell. In one location, there was a terrible and cruel tyrant who, during his life, has killed and tortured countless people under his reign. He was reborn in the shape of a mountain who was undergoing tremendous suffering due to the fires and discomforts of hell. Part of this was that his body was writhing and alive, composed of his followers who participated in the terrors. In addition, his body was ALSO composed of all the people who hated him, fusing together with him in their human life and the next life. In other words, hatred fuses us to the object of our hatred as much as devoted glee. Not saying this should be taken literally, but feeding negativity for negativity's sake seems pointless. If anything, the faults of samsara should fuel renunciation from its promises, compassion for those in ignorance, and a stark determination to seek enlightenment so one can truly benefit sentient beings. The knowledge of the suffering of samsara is presented as the first step of the spiritual path, not the last.

Easy on the bottle old3bob 😀

What is the "local cosmos" in daoist terms? I think you'd better participate in "Esoteric and Occult Discussion".

'' ... So then the wife said ; 'What are you going to do today ?' I said ; 'Nothing.' She said ; ' You did that yesterday .' I said ; ' I ain't finished yet .' ''

A Bastet case, I have become reading sonnets, having fun The port is good, so they declare in Portugal, some cat is there who sweeps a tail across the rug and makes a toy of some poor bug photo Jon Bodsworth

Cool cats rarely follow rules, or get good grades in public schools. They cultivate an air of mystery, not for them the one two three. So Apech´s drinking wine in Portugal, and not concerned with us at all. Let alone the great cat Bastet, who surely deserves her own sonnet. meow

He's done a lot of Egyptian study yet never talks of Bastet, buddy. What kind of cool white cat is that?

Not my brother, a friend. And in reality he´s a sweet guy and I don´t wish him any harm. Just someone who got caught up, as so many of us do, in a particular mind loop. For brother Apech He´s a cool white cat, who knows where it´s at. He´s done lots of Egyptian study, I´m lucky he´s my buddy.

Your experience does not contradict my statement. The thing is, there's no such generic thing as "scientists." I also have a master's (so what) and am a descendant of four generations of Ph.D.s, two of which achieved truly great things in (of all things) agricultural sciences whose positive impact lasts till today. (No, not pesticides or genetic modifications, nothing of the sort. Real agricultural science as it used to exist before all that jazz.) You may want to re-read what I wrote with this idea in mind: "scientists" and "science" is a profoundly ephemeral concept. Smoke and mirrors that may hide anyone and anything. That's the generic everyday use (or rather glaringly wrongful misuse) of the term "science," which (as @zerostao pointed out in the statement I was expounding on) is absolutely equal to a belief system. We are trained to believe statements we are told originate from "Science." "Trust the Science" absolutely equals "In God We Trust" -- it's a statement of belief plus a commandment. Real science has nothing to do with statements of belief and commandments. And real scientists... the system is set up to produce very few of those -- and disown, discredit, persecute them if they fail to toe the indoctrinators' line. But enough tangent.

Even if an ant eats a bald eagle, it will never achieve the greatness of a street pigeon

It doesn't matter if someone believes or not; if there is functionality. No autopsy will find a mco in a cadaver. The cadaver is dead and no longer an active energy vessel. There are results from running mco. That, idk how many practitioners over the years, spanning generations, generally agree upon. Mco is not a physical structure it is a dynamic energy pathway. Once again, the "scientific" view is exposed by its limitations by disregarding the subjective and only relying on the objective. Edit/ I said it before and it remains true that science itself, is a belief systen

I don’t really have a belief in qi. I do have a daily physical interaction with it like I have an interaction with my coffee table in my living room. To say I have a belief in qi would be like saying I have a belief in my coffee table. Its physical existence is self evident through my direct experience making whether I have a belief in it irrelevant. .The difference is I work on my connection with qi whereas I take my coffee table for granted and don’t give it much attention. . Because I work on that experience with qi the experience deepens and changes. I don’t have much expectation for specific outcomes but I am pleasantly surprised when i see changes or the experience deepens. Regardless I find it a pleasant challenge to work with. I am told it can take you quite far in connecting with spirit or the divine or whatever you want to call it. Rather than believing in this I think it is healthier to just keep going and to continue to observe what arises and be grateful for the experience.

Once again, a big thanks to all of you. Met him today, and I do suspect that the well wishes of the wizard bums made a difference in him, truly.

When I first got into running, I read a great book called Born to Run by Christopher McDougall. One assertion the book made is that we are hairless due to natural selection. Our lack of hair and ability to sweat gives us a distinct advantage in hunting over hairy, four legged animals that are much faster. They can run faster but can only lower their temperature through panting so they are forced to periodically stop and rest or they overheat. Humans, on the other hand, can lower temperature through sweating so it is possible for us to keep running for hours, even days, without stopping. As long as we can keep the faster animal in our sight, we will eventually catch them. McDougall postulates this is one reason we have come to dominate other species. The book goes into some interesting territory, including the Raramuri people of Mexico who are amazing runners. One just won an ultra-marathon, in fact, running in traditional sandals and a long skirt with no formal training. Before running the ultra, she walked 14 hours just to get there. https://www.onlygoodnewsdaily.com/post/indigenous-runner-wins-canyon-ultramarathon

Have been reading some info on humans eating wheat and other grains. The info says most grains cause us problems, even serious health problems, with wheat (including whole grain) being about the worse and brown rice being about the best as far as not causing an array of health problems. Its kind of mind blowing considering that whole grains and greatly processed grains are in so many of our foods! A major point the book talks about is that humans did not evolve to digest grains as ruminants did (like cattle, etc..) but only resorted to grains ages ago during hard times to prevent starvation. Studies mentioned show that many native peoples who eat "modern" foods end up with many of the modern health problems but when returning to their much earlier types of food from foraging and or hunting that most regained much better health. Anyway something to consider the next time foods made with lots of grains are before us.

Ursinically speaking, it sounds like Portugal is a pretty barren country.

Thread locked. DaoBums does not support the use of race to analyze human nature or behavior. Please avoid this topic.

I think this, like most things taiji, is misunderstood both in terminology and in application by quite a few. My teacher had me fajin him vs. fajin a pillar supporting a beam in his practice room, by way of explaining the difference hands on. Yes, of course you can fajin without an opponent, who's to stop you if you have the know-how. And no, that pillar didn't give me anything to use against it, I could only rely on my very own resources. Whereas a live opponent is going to give you something you can appropriate and turn against him (if you have the know-how of course.) Don't use your own resources is the golden rule of good push-hands. The highly skilled practitioner won't give you anything though. Moreover, they will create a perfect sensory illusion of "nothing there" -- try using fajin against a cloud, a swath of fog, a tactile emptiness... Very educational. So that pillar does give you something after all -- its own hardness which it is unable to soften, let alone to the point of disappearing from all your senses except your eyesight. Are you familiar with the "bu fa" technique?

Carl Jung called it synchronicity. I have this all the time. Works very well for me actually; usually gives me exactly what I need. I just am grateful for it and call it a mystery.

This one is from the perspective of Tibetan medicine and has a concise practice of dream yoga and dream analysis. The Tibetan Art of Dream Analysis

Hello I can't help but answer this since the Pyramid Texts of Unas are something of a specialist subject for me (or were when I was studying Egypt). @Nungali has for some reason changed the quote - to give a slightly different meaning as indicated in the translations you quote. So his meaning is specific to him (no less valid though). I checked Sethe's original transcription for what is called Utterance 233 (lines 237/8) just to see what they were saying. Old Kingdom Egyptian is like a no frills version and so there is very little context or explanation in the text. But you can gain some context etc. by seeing where these texts were placed in the pyramid structure. In this case they are on the West gable of the sarcophagus chamber - and are part of a series of 'spells' against inimical beings. That is 'entities' or forces which act against the the process being undertaken in the pyramid (which is one of transformation and 'rebirth' as a spiritual being called an 'akh'.) The words are intended to be spoken to ward off these negative forces. These types of spells occur twice in the Pyramid once here on the West gable above the sarcophagus and once on the East wall of the akhet chamber (that is on the opposite end of the pyramid chambers so they reflect each other). So there are two instances in the process which takes place in the pyramid where negative forces have to be warded off. Translated without interpretation the text says: To be spoken: Falls down the serpent from the earth, Falls down the flame from the Nun (primeval waters), Fall down, slither away. We have to break this down a bit to see what they were saying. First as I said it is a spell to be spoken out loud and its purpose is to ward off a negative force. One of the ways the Egyptians denoted negative forces was by a state of inversion. So there is a right order for things (ma'at) and there is its invert which is negative/evil. So the first two lines describe a negative state which has arisen. That is the serpent has fallen and the flame has fallen. This describes a negative state. Why because serpents like the uraeus (Egypt. Iaret ) literally means 'risen up one' and obviously also flames rise, they don't fall. I think also that the word flame or fire which has the determinative of a torch is referring to light rather than heat. So it is referencing light = awareness which has fallen back into the primeval waters which are dark (kek). So if you imagine that the right (ma'at) state of things would be a risen serpent (like the cobra on the brow of the king) and light emerging from darkness. But because of the interference of inimical beings/forces the opposite has happened and this needs to be addressed. The way this is done is to turn back the negative force onto itself. Like saying 'you made these things fall, now you fall!'. This symmetry is very Egyptian. So the last part of the spell is saying to the negative being 'You fall! and slither away!' (or you fall slitherer) In fact the very last word 'sbn' (slither) gives us a clue to which category of beings is being addressed - it is that of the Sebau fiends ... or Slithering beings. This refers to forces of dissolution or perhaps wasteful energy loss. Like for instance lustful thoughts and the like which drain energy. So my rather free translation would be: "You who made the earth serpent fall, who made the flame from Nun fall; You fall and slither away!!!"

For me, they flow together. Qigong and seasonal living keeps me grounded in the cycles of body and nature. Buddhism, especially the Eightfold Path, gives me a practical, day-to-day focus so I'm not just circulating energy, I'm directing it toward ethical development. So I think Buddhism and qigong (and wider Taoist practice) are definitely compatible. They reinforce each other. The Buddhist side keeps me honest about intention and ethics, the Taoist side keeps me tuned to the body and the seasons. One emphasizes liberation, the other emphasizes harmony. In my practice right now, that looks like lung support, moistening foods, breath-focused practice, letting go qigong, and divination around endings and storage (Taoist side of things), as well as focusing on Right Mindfulness, witnessing grief and release, siting with what’s fading without clinging, and gentle awareness sharpening (Buddhist). I don't practice Zen or Vajrayana. While it's my basic understand that the systems have some similarity, like breath dissolving into stillness, body changing with the seasons, subtle shifts in how awareness feels in the spine or chest, etc, I believe overall they're different systems with different goals (thought they may complement one another). Daoist work is about cycles of refining essence, qi, and spirit. In Zen it’s more about peeling away illusions until only clarity is left. I'm least familiar with Vajrayana, so I can't say for sure how they align. They may be compatible and mutually reinforcing, but I wouldn’t say equate Daoist neidan with Zen or Vajrayana. Here's how progression may look between the three systems: Neidan (Daoist Internal Alchemy) Chan/Zen (Buddhism) Vajrayana (Tibetan) Foundation (zhuji): conduct, diet, breath, lifestyle; quieting xin Precepts/discipline: sila, posture, calming the mind Ngöndro/prelims: refuge, bodhicitta, purification, guru yoga; basic channel regulation Refining jing → qi: conserve essence; lower dantian; small heavenly circulation Samadhi building: zazen stabilizes body–mind; energy naturally conserved Generation stage: deity visualization, mantra; guide winds into channels Refining qi → shen: circulate qi; harmonize yin/yang; nourish spirit Insight: kenshō; seeing emptiness; stabilize awareness Completion stage: tsa-lung/tummo; winds dissolve into central channel Refining shen → emptiness: return spirit to source; “immortal embryo” Integration: body-mind dropped off; non-clinging clarity Union of winds/drops/mind: clear light; mahāmudrā/ dzogchen recognition Union with Dao: return to origin; harmony/“immortality” Buddha-nature manifest: liberation from samsara Buddhahood/rainbow body: complete realization

Time for a music break

Thank you all very much, my father has been very ill and passed early this morning. I value all of your good wishes and friendship.

Science is fascinating, so I can´t fault those who make it´s study their life´s work, though there are certainly ethical landmines to be navigated -- and some navigate them with more humility and grace than others. But I like to think there´s a special place in some unfathomable lower realm for those who know nothing of science themselves but proudly declare "I believe in science" in an attempt to coerce relatives and friends to make a given behavioral choice. Not that I´m bitter or anything.

That has got to be a knuckle break LOL! I'm not one to consume or turn on the News. It's hard to decipher as a consumer the biases of media. I would rather learn about the struggles of people locally to me and how I can help them. That is where I have found the most peace in being non-violent. I cannot blame either side and I can support the communities around me. I found myself at one point consuming the trauma-porn of the world rather than spending time helping those close by. Now I can work on changing that. This is a tough question and one that my teachers get asked a lot! Firstly, I do not surround myself with violent people. I associate with people I know will not bring me harm and I do not need to go out of my way to use "self-defense" on those I assume are going to harm me. However, this week a peaceful protest on my street was attacked by a group of angry men who were likely very lost in hate. I walked past just hours earlier, and I wonder what I would have done if I was there... There are ways to protect others and yourself in non-violent ways. Defending is not always violent - you can use self-defense as a means to de-escalate or escape from a situation if you are capable. There is nothing wrong with protecting as a means to stop others from getting seriously hurt. To me, however, hitting an attacker in anger back or with the desire to truly hurt them is where violence stems. These things happen so fast; it's hard to theorize about what I would have done. And - we are human. Mistakes are made and that's okay. As long as afterwards you can address them and grow. Today I can ask myself: how can I help in that situation? What would be the best way to defend myself and others in a way that aligns with my morals? I couldn't judge anyone on how they choose to approach the current state of the violent world we live in. This statement strikes me, and I think it depends from person to person. But, violence does not need to be the answer to violence. That will only feed the cycle. Thank you for sharing these thoughts! It got me to do some thinking today

Haven't been around for awhile. I thought this might be worth a look. The author hadn't been explored the last time I was here.

This is how a beginner does. There is no such thing as not for beginners. Otherwise, where would a beginner start to do something.

oldie but a goodie.

Instant karma!

Yes, btw there could be a few wild bears left but not many since most have been domesticated and prefer quality wine and interesting conversations at garden parties hosted by Apech. (he had to buy countless gallons of expensive Portuguese red to keep the bears happily occupied, thus preventing him and his fellow countrymen from becoming bear snacks)

"Today a young man on acid realized that all matter is merely energy condensed into a slow vibration, that we are all one consciousness- experiencing itself subjectively. There is no such thing as death, life is a dream and we are the imagination of ourselves." (Bill Hicks) row, row row your boat gently down the stream.... *disclaimer: drugs are bad mmmkay and not needed for this kind of realization (takes a slow sardonic drag of a cigarette)

I can give you a list of questions people have asked here in the past: What is kundalini? Should I raise it? How do I raise it? What is the most effective method to raise it? What are the dangers? Can I do this on my own without a teacher? How does one find a teacher? What are the benefits? Are there are dangers or drawbacks? I had an experience, is this kundalini or not? I heard that person X raised their kundalini and suffered mental illness, what is this all about?

You need that like a hole in the head!

Usually, confronting dream characters shuts the dream down or takes it off script. However, one time, I encountered some one who claimed I was a character in their dream. I told them no, they were a creation of MY dream. I demonstrated this by flying around. They then flew around also, and we both started to manipulate the dream. Who's to say? A lot of the dream world, like life generally, reacts according to beliefs and expectations. There ARE certain dreams that have a very unique flavor, what my old teacher would call a dream of clarity. In these dreams, it certainly feels like there are divine beings and divine realms. Stephen LaBerge's techniques have been incorporated into Dream Yoga. Nearly every modern dream yoga teacher teaches them because they are so effective. A lot of people like Michael Raduga, but I lost all interest once it came to light that he drilled a hole in his head to implant a "dream chip": https://www.newsweek.com/russian-implants-chip-brain-control-dreams-hospital-1814256

Max says that his system is not the same as his teachers, meaning, I think, that "kunlun" is not the same as "yi gong." Having received instructions for both practices, I can´t say I see the difference. But what is glaringly true is that Max (Kunlun) and Jenny Lamb (Yi Gong) have wildly different personalities and approaches. Max is flamboyant, a self-proclaimed "coyote" given to telling wild stories. Jenny is grounded, circumspect. I think it would be a mistake to dismiss Kunlun / yigong based on an appraisal of Max´s character. Those who don´t like Max will likely like Jenny, and vice versa. I´m positive that Yigong is grounded in a spiritual tradition, though not one that is easily accessed, especially now that Jenny is retired. My intuitive sense is that the tradition can best be accessed through committed practice. It´s possible that the best teachers are not presently embodied in human form, but nevertheless actively guide the diligent student. Just my guess.

My Taiji shifu who is from a Wu Tu Nan Wu lineage said that the Dantian is just the center of gravity. So if we’re talking about Taiji, a person with a Dantian is someone who is always rooted and has the ground. From doing Wuji standing for long periods, an opposing force starts to lift up your body. Then yang qi from above starts to properly move and align down into the body and mixes with the yin qi. Then if you’re speaking about Neidan, a Dantian is when someone who has the elixir (golden pill or embryo) in their lower reservoir. This implies that the practitioner is at the stage of Di Xian or close to it. So an actual Dantian is not exceptionally rare and doubt anyone here has one. I certainly don’t have one(if we’re talking about the pre-Heaven).