steve

Thanks

Mod message The insulting remarks and derailing posts have been moved to the pit to allow the discussion to continue without interference.

Tögal, at least the way I've been instructed, can only be practiced when one is fully resting in the nature of mind. If subject-object duality is present, something that is necessary for someone to do work of any kind, tögal is no longer being practiced. Tögal visions are, by definition, visions that arise in the absence of subject-object duality. So I tend to separate tögal practice from other subtle energy practices for this reason.

For discussion’s sake - I do consider there to be some conceptual framework in action during energy work, subtle or otherwise, but I don’t consider togal practice to be subtle energy work at all.

In my experience, concepts are ubiquitous and never-ending. I tend to be overly analytical and dominated by the thinking mind. For this reason, I do tend to emphasize the non-conceptual over the conceptual when discussing and practicing matters of the spirit. Not because I necessarily feel the non-conceptual approach or destination is more effective or even more important. Simply because it is so foreign and unfamiliar that it doesn't stand a chance in my own experience if not over-emphasized.

My limited understanding is that time and space are characteristics of our perception and understanding of things and events, but not necessarily intrinsic characteristics of the things and events themselves.

It’s like studying meditation… or like toasting sobriety.

In this context and paradigm, what is “the Self?” That sounds more Hindu than Daoist.

I'm not very knowledgable on the subject. The presence of nagas in Bön and Buddhist traditions likely come from Hindu mythology. My limited understanding is that they can cause illnesses in people. it is often said this is related to humans disturbing their natural habitat through pollution, development, defilement and so forth. Interpreting their presence in dreams IMO is highly dependent on the dreamer's cultural background, frame of mind, and circumstances and the meaning will vary from person to person and with the context and other details of the dream. Your explanation is probably the most accurate for you. In some traditions, like Hinduism, dreaming of snakes can mean a sense or awareness of impending challenges or worries and catching a snake can represent a triumph over enemies or obstacles. In Buddhism, they tend to be representative of mortality and rebirth. Female nagas are referred to as naginis... I doubt the name of Voldemort's serpent was a coincidence!

I seem to remember him riding a badass ‘vette ot something like that. I don’t think he needs a dragon.

I’m confused. Understanding others’ feelings through digital media can be elusive for me. Thanks for clarifying

I would imagine dragons can only be ridden by invitation and such an invitation would be a precious gift. I’m no dragon but y’all are welcome to ride me when I’m gone.

My answer fwiw, through the action of a mind which feels itself to be separate due to conditions associated with human birth. Interesting that this is expressed in terms of past and future tense as if birthing and returning are limited in time/space. A mother never loses connection with their child nor the Dao with its myriad expressions. The separation was never there to begin with. I am happy to deny the existence of any such steps in the relationship among phenomena and their ultimate source. Steps are an artificial overlay created by the mind to try and apprehend something that can only be appreciated without its own interference.

Don’t you think that’s up to the dragon? Starjumper and Marblehad most likely had quite a bit of interaction here over the years. I don’t recall their relationship but I hope at this point there would be no obstacles to love.

What I've come to appreciate with regards to this question of progressive achievement versus instantaneous enlightenment or 'simply being' is the critical importance of seeing clearly where we are in our understanding and needs at any given moment and the ability to be honest with ourselves about that. When approaching spiritual teachings, especially the highly esoteric teachings of dzogchen, I think there is a tendency to get wrapped up in our ideas, assumptions, projections, and desires to the point that we are blind to what is really happening in our lives and minds. We are then likely to spin our wheels and get frustrated or have an unrealistic view of ourselves due to spiritual bypassing. I am also a student of Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche and have found his ability to show me the practical and accessible life lessons in the most esoteric of Bön teachings to be priceless. In addition, the Bön teachers I've met have been firmly grounded in reality and practicality when it comes to an honest and open appraisal of their own relationship to practice and fruition. This is one of the profound benefits of having a personal relationship with "one who has gone before." One thing I've learned is that it is valuable to have a tool box, not just a single tool. When I am able to simply abide and self liberation occurs effortlessly nothing more is needed. This is the ultimate level of practice (according to dzogchen) but for most of us this is not our consistent and continuous experience. When this is not happening, I need to be aware and it is beneficial to have other tools to work with. These tools help us to connect with and loosen those things that are preventing us from allowing the ebb and flow of unobstructed and unfabricated experience. When it comes to the effortless approach of resting in the nature of mind versus a progressive, goal driven approach Tenzin Rinpoche offers the following advice - As far as abiding is concerned of course there is no practice. If there is somebody there that is not abiding, then there is practice. That is a decision you have to make. Just recognize. ~ Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche In terms of practices for navigating a chronic illness, it can be helpful to talk with a medical specialist from whichever tradition you feel a deep connection to and intend to practice. I have found the following approach to be very supportive for me. From Bön, I practice the nine breathings of purification which help me open to and liberate the effects of the three poisons and their contribution to illness. I also practice the five tsa lung exercises which help to identify and clear obstacles to balancing the five subtle winds that support health and well being. In addition, I often engage in Daoist practices of zhan zhuang, qigong, and taijiquan which I find to be wonderful adjuncts. Finally, the most important practice for me is connecting to inner refuge (the nature of mind) through the three doors of body speech and mind. This is not only a formal practice on the cushion but an informal practice, progressively integrated into all aspects of life. The inner refuge is often referred to as the true source of healing which is not coincidentally the title of one of Tenzin Rinpoche's books.