steve

I agree, it is an apparent and passing identity. Nevertheless, it is how we experience life from birth to death, defined by this human form and sensory apparatus. It is what we have to practice and realize with. Realization does not mean that our human form vanishes, at least that is my experience. It persists until death or rainbow body (in the dzogchen tradition). Consequently, it is important for me to be aware that I am not the pure and perfect mind itself, i am a practitioner - which is an expression of that pure and perfect mind. Conflating the two leads to errors in understanding and practice in the teachings I follow.

Expensive poison!

Yes, but one can have one hell of an argument! DaoBums for the win!

I've not spent much time on the path of renunciation so I can't really comment much. Not saying it would not be effective, even for me maybe, but I'm glad I found an alternative. I do think it is a difficult path to tread for a householder. Not sure where or if an "if" would fit in there, do you have a suggestion?

Anonymous internet intercourse is always tricky... don't ya think?

The synchronicity of the DaoBums provides... a brief description of working with the tsa, lung, and thigles in the Bön tradition, recently posted on FB by a young practitioner from Menri monastery in Himachal Pradesh for any curious -

Agreed, one mistake is to take it as a goal, per se, another to consider it a separate state. While it is a valuable skill to cultivate, once there is some level of success and stability it should no longer be treated as final goal. It is more of a tool. The goal becomes total integration in all states of human experience. For sure the method is prone to abstraction and disconnection. This is why expert guidance and a close relationship with a lineage and teacher are so important. I very much agree. The work must address everything in human experience, from the coarsest to the most subtle. There is work at each level. In the dzogchen tradition I follow, every formal practice session includes elements from sutra, tantra, and dzogchen. At a minimum prayers, energetic cleansing, and guru yoga. In life, one must attend to the physical body, the subtle body, and mind's nature. I think it is a mistake to fault mahamudra or dzogchen, per se. The fault lies with the teacher and/or the practitioner. That is where misleading and misunderstanding occur. In these vehicles, there is a common tendency to conflate the practitioner with the inherent perfection of the primordially pure essence. It is not surprising, given that this is the very essence of the practitioner herself. It is my contention that in the living being, there is never complete and perfect union with / resting in pristine consciousness. Any experience we have of "that" is actually an experience of the release of an obstacle that was previously limiting our openness, our spaciousness, our warmth in some way. This is in part because in life we are always limited by our human form and in part because what we are pointing to in these teachings is not "a state" of any sort in the way we can envision what that means. We remain human and it is the human mind that experiences and recollects the release of limitations as some special state. That in and of itself is a bit of an error. Yes, there can be a lot of talk, particularly by anonymous folks online and in teaching sessions especially when beginner and intermediate practitioners are involved, but the talk and study are released and become less interesting as the path is understood. There was a time when I couldn't get enough of reading and listening to the teachings. I would read before, during, and after work, and on the weekends. I would listen to recordings whenever driving. Now these rarely hold my attention any longer. It is the resting and the integration that are most fascinating and engaging for the most part.

Nungali is like life. Sometimes they will slap you in the face, sometimes tickle you with joy, sometimes you feel like you just need a break, and at other times they will surprise you with the unexpected. I have ignored some people here on occasion (never Nungali though) when not modding. One of the downsides of being a mod/admin - you can't ignore people. I haven't felt the need to do so in a long time, probably not since the great right wing expulsion. The people who irritate me the most are pointing to something in me that is worthy of acknowledgement, recognition, and reconciliation. It's a bit like forgiveness in that it is more for the one offering than for the one receiving, though both can ultimately benefit. Now that I've spouted off some wise sounding words, someone will probably piss me off enough to put them on ignore any time now!

Curiosity is most wonderful and is the motivating factor for both my interest in meditation and my interest in science. Each is a valid and valuable avenue of exploration of the nature of me, which is not separate from the nature of the universe. I would feel incomplete if I didn't give some of my attention to each. For me, both are inextricably connected.

I like two. The color of the outline and the transparency appeal more to my eye.

I can relate. I rarely read or ponder this sort of thing any longer. I spend far more time practicing than studying or thinking about it. On the other hand, some topics do catch my interest and this happens to be one.

No need for an apology. I very much appreciate both responses. Good stuff here with which to spend some time. 🙏🏼

Interesting assertions @Bindi, thanks for sharing. I hope you don't mind a few questions to help me understand where you are coming from. You propose that dreams are completely independent of subjective beliefs. Do you feel that our lifetime of conditioning, our assumptions and expectations, our life experience and its effects on our body, mind, and spirit have no effect on what arises in the heart/mind during sleep? You suggest that dreams, which are limited to individual subjective experience, are the closest thing to your experience of objective reality. That begs the question - how to define objectivity and reality?

It's definitely not very clear or easy to grasp but if you have the patience to read through the second paper I referenced above it does a very nice job of walking through fundamental ways of thinking about consciousness, quantum mechanics, and how the two could relate to one another in the context of the brain, nervous system, and beyond. It's not an easy read but I find the ideas and methods of inquiry fascinating. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1571064513001188?via%3Dihub

Don't worry, be happy! And don't worry, be sad! Don't worry, be angry And don't worry, be fabulous! Be everything fully but don't take any of it too seriously, in a short time it will change. The "Absolute" has no preference and no limitation, everything is a part of it without exception.