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Come to think of it, most words that refer to ideas, concepts, mental constructs, interpretations, all that "vaporware" of human cognition, are similarly problematic. We use them as though they are qualitative and quantitative, whereas they are semantic conventions born of contentions. Often they define what is really indefinite, what barely exist, or does't exist at all. With tangible material things the grey zone is a lot smaller, but still... I sit in an office chair. I bought it as an "office chair," but if I put a dining-room chair in my office instead, in that same spot in front of the computer, will it become an office chair? Will it lose its dining-room chair citizenship? Will it become a naturalized citizen of the office? Will it surrender its dining-room allegiances and swear to fight all enemies of the office, foreign and domestic? And will the indigenous residents of the office -- computer, printer, filing cabinet -- see it as an office chair, as "one of us?" And will it forget all those family dinners it was part of in its native dining-room, all its dining-room mates from the same set still gathered around the dining-room table, still indigenous?..

In my mind, indigenous people are those who are rooted by blood to communities that have protected them, more or less, from alienating and spirit-fragmenting modern influences. (This is, perhaps, an overly romantic definition, but whatdaya expect -- I´m not a very indigenous person. )

After doing the haplogroup thing on my parents and seeing the maps that showed the movement across the world of my ancestors from their source in east Africa I found that one could argue that indigenous really only applies to these original people in East Africa. However if you reduce it that far in search of a pure definition you miss out on many interesting and informative steps in evolution of religion, culture, cultivation, healing modalities and philosophy. To me what makes this topic interesting is asking the questions - what was there before what we are familiar with now?, how are these things connected? and what can we learn from them? In my posting on the Babaylan priestesses I tried to make the point that the view of the Philippines just as a country that is predominately Catholic with enclaves of Islam in the south misses a lot of important influences and cultivation phenomena. Some young people in the Philippines are attracted to the Babaylan/hilot culture to find who they are and to overcome their own programming as a colonized people. It has helped them to connect with something through a community mechanism that was there before the modern world that can help them work through their own issues such as trauma, relationships and dealing with gender identity issues. My own interaction as a cultural outsider meeting with it in my own family has created growth for me including getting me to go beyond the thinking sense that is so predominate in modern culture (a work in progress, lol) and to better see how people are affected by the colonial mindset. It also has given me a perspective on what lineage transmission is in an esoteric sense that not many outsiders get to directly experience.

Down here in Oz we have certain unique dynamics that can assure 'indigenous ' , like, it is pretty certain now and backed up by a lot of research that the indigenous Australian Aboriginal can be certainly termed indigenous as they were the first people here . That's a rare (supported ) claim . The confusion rises with the idea of modern indigenous ; what is accepted as indigenous here : It relies on 3 things ; Proved descent, self identification and community recognition . problematic ; due to lost and stolen generations , some may look obviously Aboriginal but not know ancestry . There is also the issue of % of ancestry ... it doesnt apply ! One ancestor ( going back to whenever ) is sufficient to claim indigeneity. Self identification ... curious , I just need to declare I think I am . It also means no one can say you are , if you dont agree . And community battles or fights or rival claims can make the leaders of a community 'not recognize' (or not issue a certificate of recognition ) to others . So, with myself as an example ; I cant prove descent * , I did not in the past, but am moving towards identifying as indigenous ( due to above * and also the following ) many times Indigenous community have insisted I am Aboriginal , BUT they were not the people that I might have descended from and with the other group, that generation of elders has gone now ( that insisted I was Aboriginal ) and the new people cant seem to recognize it or even are aware of my past work with the old elders . * as far as I can track ; paternal Grandfather came out from England expecting promised land of milk and honey ... not so . Ended up as a cane cutter in Queensland , then went out west to do remote mining . Somehow ended up with some woman and 3 kids ( not sure if they all had the same mother ) . Looking at history .... what were women doing out there ? A great shortage of women for the miners . Chances are she was indigenous . But that was all covered up . Grandfather came to Sydney with three kids and a relative of his had an in law that felt sorry fo them and stepped in to help . This was the woman I thought was my paternal grandmother (until I was in my 30s ! ) It would be funny if it turned out she came from .... https://www.victoriadaly.nt.gov.au/timber-creek/#:~:text=The first inhabitants were the Ngaliwurra and,of whom still live in Timber Creek. [ I did not know of these people when I chose this name ,,,, its a pun in local language about a goanna lizard (gungali ) and the main myth of this valley (Nungli ) ] I still have trouble with it as I still 'visually identify ' people ... nowadays this is a big no-no ; In Australia , there is no "blood quantum" or minimum percentage required to be recognized as Indigenous. The legal and community standard does not measure "how much" descent you have (e.g., 1/4 or 1/16); rather, it focuses on the fact of descent from the inhabitants of Australia prior to European settlement Which means some dude white as snow might be considered , but some guy 'black as' that could not get the records or community acceptance might not be One reason I dont pursue the claim ; all sorts of people are doing it to get special benefits reserved for the indigenous . I have never had to suffer any thing or need that as the system never assumed I was indigenous . The other reason is .... 'special' types of Aboriginals instantly recognize me as 'one' . The ones that do not .... seem to have lost something ( by that I mean they seem more 'westernized' and less 'magical' ) .

"things" is the catch, for there is that which is not an impermanet thing, the human mind is a thing (with computer like aspects) that can not know no-thing no mater how hard it trys per every which way. Btw very few of us are ready or willing to give up our particualr mind which is our particualr identity. (which would entail dangers if not done via Spirit)

We do have dreams bigger than our egoic thought bubble, again if you start paying more attention to them you will find that for yourself. What you would find out as well and for example is that a big percentage of our dreams are premonitory. That goes way beyond our hopes and fears. As I'm not selling any dream programs for self- inprovement this will end my comments on this thread. Best of luck to you.

That sounds great. I tried playing with the color myself, feeling slightly unsatisfied with it, but I couldn't improve on it. Your mother is very talented, even if she open-sourced the outline, and I look forward to her further application of that talent! Lucky us, thanks liminal_luke, thanks liminal_luke mom!

My comment was about your comment about dreams not about absolute truth. Dreams are a good tool for self-development because they mirror a deeper truth than the bs we tell ourselves. Regarding absolute truth I just don't believe in that anymore or concern about it. It is my experience that what we believe to be true rooted in deep material or spiritual experience can vanish in a moment. Truth doesn't settle anywhere, ever.

The opening line of the famous classical Chinese novel, Romance of the Three Kingdoms, is this: "The empire, long divided, must unite; long united, must divide. Thus it has ever been." (話說天下大勢．分久必合，合久必分).

I stand with the migrant dining room chair community. Or should that be 'I sit with them?'.

Many are, many aren't. If you start a dream journal you will realize that. You can deny your true feelings to yourself and your unconscious will show you otherwise, just like you can deny your attraction or aversion towards someone and your body will show you otherwise.

There are many problems with that approach. Here are some i can think of off the top of my head : delusions and hindrances warp a person's view so things can't be seen as clearly, unbeknownst to them One must have an allegiance to truth, and even then they must subscribe to absolute truth otherwise they will get subjective truth Having a belief before doing the experiment taints the experiment itself. who's to say your experimental testing is true and not flawed just as any human is flawed. There is no such thing as belief without testing, all things must come from something in this world.

I am wondering where the horse got them cool sneakers for his front feet from .

Welcome to the Indigenous Traditions sub forum. This is a space for discussing traditional beliefs and practices from old cultures around the world, so we can share and learn from ancient wisdom, myth and method. As ever on this forum please commit to remaining respectful to those cultures and each other - and enjoy the conversation.

I will try to help here ... he is saying 'truth' ( alone ) is syncategorematic . :)

The human mind can know more than it does, but it needs extra parts of our system to be developed. I agree, it’s both hard, maybe even impossible, and if one could do it I think it could be dangerous. Following my trajectory, a higher consciousness is installed before the mental/emotional level is let go of.

It will not become an indigenous chair of the office until it has eliminated every other chair that was there before it . Then the new office chair can make an edict to forbid any other chair that is different from a dining room chair .... I mean ... an office chair ... coming into the room ;

What made me seriously think about it was once listening to this englishman born and bread in England but with a Russian mother speaking of his experience while visiting Russia. He never felt identified with English culture but while in Russia altough sometimes feeling literally smashed by the cold he felt simultaneouslly extremelly happy to be amongst his people, those who really understood him 🙂

I have a friend who is American but considers himself Norwegian because of his ancestry and his Norwegian last name. A number of years ago he went to visit that country, loved it, found a job, wound up staying for 8 years, then returning. His conclusion: "I know I'm a wannabe Norwegian but who am I kidding... I'm American." Which has been my observation too. Californian through and through. But if you do go there, be ready for 1/3 of your genetics making its voice heard.

Indeed I did! Thanks Cobie! _/\_

Not within, inward. All THINGS wherever they are constructed are impermanent, yes.

Genetically I should be 1/3 Norwegian. These videos just make me wish to visit Norway. So curious about what I would feel like there.

The same thing that is not impermanent everywhere. It's just the easiest place for most people to look. What is present when all contriving of reality drops away?

Thank you for the offer but i don't feel quite comfortable sharing any dreams just yet. This question is difficult to answer. First we would have to ask ourselves "what is truth ?" the response would be "truth is what is". Then we must figure out the difference between what is true for us and what is true for everyone always. The way to do this is by understanding that anything that we can interact with must be subjective as it runs through our senses, consciousness, awareness etc. which means it can't be absolute as absolute is free from us because it depends on nothing. A more practical way of ascertaining truth would be to be as honest as you possibly can to yourself and others, i have found that the more i did this, the more i was able to see things as they are. I am unhappy with my response here....

My cousin has compiled the family tree (on my father's side through which we are cousins). That project of his spanned years. It so happened that he used to have access to a very complete and detailed genealogical database of his country that is classified, which made it possible for him to dig up information a regular genealogy buff would never find. He was able to trace our fist known progenitors to the 11th century Sweden. From there, three streams of ancestors eventually dispersed over three continents. Some converged centuries later, some left their places of origin forever -- e.g. there was no one left in Sweden since the 14th century. But now a distant relative is in Sweden all over again, his parents migrated there, he was born there... I wonder if he qualifies as indigenous now?..

Look inwardly and find that which is not impermanent.

This is a very interesting paper that argues for a nomadic origin of early Daoist thought. I would be interested in your views. The paper can be found in two places: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/400734950_SINO-PLATONIC_PAPERS_Zhou_Dynasty_Indo-European_Nomadic_Culture_The_Origin_of_Early_Daoist_Thought https://independent.academia.edu/ShaunRamsden

dreams will use your symbols, but they’ll use them to make an objective snapshot of you. Here’s a challenge, share a dream here and we can analyse it, see if it holds any objective value for you.

I mean an upgrade in our perceptual system. A more direct perception, literally. I believe any information you have gained from within your system is beneficial, awareness of your system is the organism being aware of its own functioning, and being aware of its own functioning we as the organism can improve our functioning.

This is my problem with the word indigenous. Were the Britons indigenous? They were Celts which is in itself a vague term covering a language group hailing from Central Europe. If you want truly indigenous you have to mean Mesolithic western hunter gatherers … otherwise anyone born in Britain perhaps? What exactly do we mean by indigenous?

OK enough of this. Thread locked.

I am my body, I am my subtle energy body, and I am the consciousness in my body, but this consciousness is currently more limited than its potential. I see us as evolving beings, taking who knows how many thousands of years, to step into our consciousness potential, which is not emptiness or the absolute or pure beingness but a biologically based extension of perception capacity. A multitude of different peoples efforts will lead us to our next evolutionary step, with many missteps on the way. But the people who step in the right direction will slowly create a surer path for those that follow. We’re all part of the great evolutionary experiment. I agree our consciousness can be our only object of attention, but what we attend to within this pursuit can make all the difference. If you’re looking for zest and ease you might find it, but that doesn’t make zest and ease the actual evolutionary step.

But… what if being weighed down by beliefs is part of the problem? A belief can lead you to direct energy to the wrong places, an entwined belief doesn’t lead to whatever your ultimate is, it’s just another shackle. We do have to believe something, our minds are meaning making machines, the Daoist way of allowing the system to self-correct seems to be the most powerful, but it requires letting go of beliefs that overshadow reality. I agree “it can be known within when uncovered”, but any belief that pre-states what “it” Is keeps you from “it”. This is just an extension of my dislike of short order nondual realisation, belief establishes the lens and self gratuitous declarations of having arrived follow, but inner reality hasn’t been established. Emotional bypassing, karmic bypassing, clinging to beliefs, leads to staying on the merry go round for longer.

What do you mean 'what is going on with them ' ??? They are a bunch of islands in the Torres Straight . between Cape York and New Guinea , the Islanders are the inhabitants . They constituent one of two groups of indigenous Australians . perhaps one thing 'going on with them' is ; Like the mainland indigenous they showed, at around a similar time , a unique solution to a social problem , perhaps the only historical account we have of a people causing nation wide social change and implementing a new system , not because of disaster , conquest or invasion , but by intelligent insight . what has Lemuria got to do with it ? One 'Lumeria' was a postulated land bridge supposed to exist between Madagascar and Africa , the other is the submerged parts around Sri Lanka ; Shiva's Brdge or 'Ram Setu' .

Chuunibyou is a Japanese slang term for c. 13 - 14 years old who claim they have secret powers/knowledge, in order to stand out from the crowd. (Chūnibyō / Chuunibyou , different romanisations of the Japanese 中 二 病 . 中 二 病 (zhong1 er4 bing4) centre two disease; middle school 2nd year syndrome; eighth-grader syndrome.) Yes I would agree, based on your long list of his claims. At the root it is imo attention-seeking behaviour. They will always do more of whatever they get attention for, so best ignored. It reminded me of these posts: In general imo it’s best to focus on your own goals and ignore idiots. .

Well lets make it all yangy then with headbutting swans .... or I suggest daobums show the year of the fire horse by pitting an aardvark up there , better still, this little guy ;

He just quoted you man - if that's all that it takes to discredit you, you might not have a leg to stand on here

Thought I’d share this on the Babaylan indigenous culture of the Philippines. I have participated in some of these rituals and found them both powerful and fascinating particularly seeing the connections to Indian and Chinese language, physical and spiritual cultivation and healing cultures that are part of it. My wife’s grandmother was a traditional practitioner of this and the capabilities of her lineage appear to have been passed on to the women in my immediate family. The video talks about the indigenous experience in confronting Christianity and Islam as well as the role of gender including transgender there. My guess is that many indigenous practices in other parts of the world went through similar processes where they interacted with/were changed by outside cultures trying to control them. In the modern era the Babaylan culture mostly manifests as indigenous healing practices like manghihilot which are still widespread in the Philippines but there also still exists behind this those currently following the culture and practices of the Babaylan. My understanding this tradition was not only affected by Catholicism and Islam but also more recently by American Protestant missionaries who carved up the Philippines in the 20th century into areas of authority to proselytize and before Catholicism and Islam by Buddhist and Hindu influences. These earlier Indian influences can be seen in the language, traditional scripts, as well as in the healing practices. https:// 1 justjoseph responded to this Quote Edit

My friend, this level of obsession is unhealthy

Do not bring external feuds into this website or you may be banned. I’m locking this thread - no more discussion on this please.

The mod team are a group of volunteers (that is ordinary members) whose role is to ensure that this site is a place where any member can post happily and truthfully. There are a number of rules that have been introduced over the years with the purpose of keeping the peace. These have been adopted progressively based on experience. Each report or instance of posting is considered by the mod team when it arises. We don’t issue general amnesties or permissions as we deal with each instance as it arises. The site is well run and successful and we want to keep it that way while being as permissive as possible. However if someone pushes at the general wish for mutual respect and so on they may well be suspended or banned. This would include introducing external battles and feuds onto the DaoBums site.

You speak about objective reality and truth. If I recall correctly, you are the same person who claimed to be able to shoot eye lasers, fly faster than the speed of light, fight ancient Naga demons, have a bunch of anime style elf girlfriends, inject brain power upgrades, and have a real life Rick and Morty portal gun to open portals to other worlds. If that is correct I am not sure your definition of objective is the same as the Merriam Webster.

It seems he is doing dream, but not sleep Kung Fu. Neidan doesn't do dreams because once a person reaches higher stage, he won't have dreams, so no point to work on it in earlier stages.