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@ChiDragon as promised my understanding: OK I will outline how I understand qigong and Neidan. The first thing to say is that it is not my specialist subject but I did study under a Chinese gentleman from Hong Kong who was living in England at that time, about thirty years ago. He taught me a qigong form called 'Nine Rings' and a Neidan mediation called Iron Mountain Lineage to a level where he said I could teach them to others. About 5/6 years ago when I was considering returning to Daoism as a main practice I studied English translations of a number of texts, such as Wang Mu and the Cantong qi, making detailed notes and so on. So I have some slight experience of the subject. The first thing to say is that qigong and Neidan are different. Qigong, which I would call skills in working with qi (in the body) has the goal of wellbeing, that is health and happiness. While Neidan has the goal of making the dan and from that immortality (although I don't think this means necessarily through a physical vehicle). Qigong involves three things. First developing 'sung' with the body. In other words mostly through standing postures you learn to relax the body round its frame such that it becomes a kind of absorbant container for qi. This is a distinct feeling which arises after long standing or sitting postures. Then the regulation of the breath, so it is smoothly in and out and continuous, and thirdly the focussed resting of your attention on the body undistracted by thoughts and so on. When this happens (which takes varying amounts of time depending on the person) you begin to become aware of qi on your body. Then the breathing and movement exercises operate through the three – body movement, breath and attention – all together which circulate and move qi in the body (and beyond as you can also learn to project qi). As to what qi is, well this is difficult to say, in some ways it is an effect and in others it is an agent of change. Calling it energy is not wrong but it's not right either. It is best left as being qi based on experiencing it, not speculating about it. Neigong is just as qigong but without so much of the physical movement. The goal of these two is health and happiness or wellbeing as I would put it. Neidan is different. The usual version of where this came from is that it evolved from WeiDan, that is alchemy using substances to make pills or medicines for health and immortality. But I think it is more likely that the whole project of Dan production began as both inner and outer together and then split into two schools, one dealing with outer substances and the other with inner substances. The Neidan approach retained the technical terms from outer alchemy, like lead, sulpher, cinnabar and so on … but applied them differently. The same was done with the TCM system of channels and nodes – the same terms were applied slightly differently and with different emphasis. So Neidan was quite technical and secret because the terminology was opaque to those who were not initiated. However the main point is the creation of the Dan through 'alchemically' mixing inner substances and then processing it to produce an immortal body. This is quite different to qigong, although they are obviously related because they both deal in the three treasures for instance. The level of intensity with Neidan is quite different. Qigong is basically benign but Neidan can be dangerous if misapplied. Jing is not a physical substance but is the most condensed form of qi before it becomes physical. As the physical is just this, a precipitate of qi. Shen is the most fine form of qi which forms the basis for mental activity. All three are a spectrum of states of qi, like ice, water, steam … are all the same substance in different phases. Knowledge and understanding of qi depends entirely on developing qi sensitivity. If one doesn't have it you are unlikely to understand it properly. But once you have it all philosophical speculations about its nature become redundant.

"Idol worship" is fundamentally and totally misunderstood in the Abrahamic religions but not in some "eastern" ways per this quote: So strange to some but not others... "SHLOKA 108 We worship God Siva and the Gods who by their infinite powers spiritually hover over and indwell the image, or murti, which we revere as their temporary body. We commune with them through the ritual act of puja. Aum. BHASHYA The stone or metal Deity images are not mere symbols of the Gods; they are the form through which their love, power and blessings flood forth into this world. We may liken this mystery to our ability to communicate with others through the telephone. We do not talk to the telephone; rather we use a telephone as a means of communication with another person who is perhaps thousands of miles away. Without the telephone, we could not converse across such distances; and without the sanctified murti in the temple or shrine we cannot easily commune with the Deity. His vibration and presence can be felt in the image, and He can use the image as a temporary physical-plane body or channel. As we progress in our worship, we begin to adore the image as the Deity's physical body, for we know that He is actually present and conscious in it during puja, aware of our thoughts and feelings and even sensing the pujari's gentle touch on the metal or stone. The Vedas exclaim," Come down to us, Rudra, who art in the high mountains. Come and let the light of thy face, free from fear and evil, shine upon us. Come to us with thy love.”Aum Namah Sivaya.” GURUDEVA" Edited Saturday at 09:12 AM by old3bob

Fire from the Heavenly Stem hits the stable where the Horse has been chomping at the bit for 60 years. The Horse jumps out of the burning gate and takes off galloping, mane fiery, tail ablaze. It never fails to leave its hoof prints on the world's politics, economy, and landscape. Here are some of them: 1846 Mexican–American War begins, reshaping the future borders of the U.S. Peasant uprising in Galicia, future Ukraine, engineered by the occupying Austrian empire against the local Polish nobility. 1906 San Francisco earthquake and fire, one of the worst urban disasters in U.S. history. Mount Vesuvius eruption in Italy, a major disaster affecting Naples and surrounding regions. 1966 Cultural Revolution begins in China, profoundly reshaping society and politics. Flooding in Italy destroys a lot of cultural heritage in Florence and Venice. A major escalation in the Vietnam war. 2026 -- ? Of course there were good things happening too. The type of qi known as the Fire Horse can be quite transformative and, under the right circumstances and given the right treatment, energizing, illuminating, and magnificent. But it's the most volatile kind of them all, unpredictable and not easily governable. Let's hope no pale riders manage to mount it.

The common tactic among Western teachers is to take the simplest practice possible, overcomplicate it with made-up nonsense, create artificial barriers, and then sell it in tiny pieces for as long as they can. If they didn’t do this, they’d run out of material to teach in a week or a month. I’ve seen Damien “Standing Post aka Zhan Zhuang” course. For about 6–8 hours he teaches almost nothing of value with 99% of the information tied to basic physical posture. He has zero knowledge of the energetic aspects of the practice, no understanding of the upper and lower channels, and he clearly has no clue that you need a specific mental state and develop meditation skills to gain any real benefit from the posture itself. It’s basically like a kindergartener stealing a high-school math textbook written in a foreign language, ripping out all the important chapters, and then teaching other kids how to draw carrots and cucumbers so they can count to 10. In Chinese tradition it's very common to just give students the basic stuff like physical postures and hold back the real 99% of valuable info until the person proves they're trustworthy, loyal, hardworking, talented, etc. That's why you get all these "early graduates" who basically got kicked out by Teacher. The simplest way to ditch someone annoying is to pump up their ego: "You've learned everything, you're a master now, go spread the word!"

My 2025 started off rough, by spring I attempted a move. Didn't work out. Late summer, tried another move, didn't go as planned, yet, worked out in other ways. Fall has been good. Beginning this winter much better than a year ago. Reflecting on 2025, personally,,, new found direction. Looking at 2026, looking forward. Knowing, things continue to change. I learned a new way to offer Cheers, salut, etc And to all ya'lls bums, I raise my glass sans clinking Formidable!!

I read the title of this thread as ‘Saving Private Neidan’ on first take made me laugh.

Happy shortest day everyone!

Practicing nei dan from whatever you read on tdb will lead you to hell, a quite personal hell, because you are practicing wrong. Find a realized teacher.

This was a fascinating read. I find the sky-father deities and twin progenitors to be the weakest part of the argument. Those patterns show up in too many cultures to carry much weight on their own. I've always been interested in the appearance of a threefold pattern in the Daodejing, so that catches my eye. What intrigues me most, given my interests, is the proposed connection between Xi Wangmu, the Queen Mother of the West, and Kubala of Carchemish, Great Mother of the Mountains (and later as Cybele of Anatolia, Queen of Heaven and Earth.) I also think it's interesting that the Yijing trigram names may be Indo-European words, that the heavenly stems and earthly branches share a very old source with the Phoenician alphabet, and that Old Chinese itself may hold many Indo-European loanwords. It is clear there was real contact, influence, and exchange between these worlds. My question is, if Indo-Europeans created the Yijing and the Daodejing as distinct systems, separate from early Chinese culture, where is that system now in their own traditions? China, despite repeated waves of loss and destruction, has held onto these texts and developed their philosophy for thousands of years. If the deeper origin really lay with Indo-Europeans, where is the parallel, continuous lineage on their side? ---------------- 1. Mythological and Religious Parallels between Early China and Indo-Europeans • Sky Father Deities • Twin Progenitors and Sibling-Creators • Tripartite Functions and the Three Sovereigns • Western Paradise and the Queen Mother • Kunlun Mountain and the Cosmic Pillar • Jade, Immortality, and Steppe Connections • Foreign Ancestry of Culture Heroes 2. Linguistic and Textual Evidence (Yijing Trigrams and Language Contacts) • Yi Jing Trigram Names as Indo-European Words • Binary Structure and Yin–Yang Dualism as Indo-European Pattern • Heavenly Stems / Phoenician Alphabet Parallels • Old Chinese Loanwords from Indo-European Languages • Feudalism and Social Structure Parallels 3. Cultural and Philosophical Comparisons • Nomadic vs. Sedentary Lifestyle Fusion • Mandate of Heaven and Indo-European Moral Kingship • Chariot Technology and Warrior Aristocracy • Recording of History and Philosophical Consciousness 4. Archaeological, Genetic, and Migration Evidence • Tarim Basin Caucasian Mummies • Europoid Skulls at Anyang • Chariot and Horse Burials in Western Zhou • Steppe Cultural Motifs in Bronze, Art, and Tools • Migrations of Yuezhi, Wusun, Qiang, and Western Rong Near Zhou

So true … when alone in solitude I cry out to my master to deliver the blow which will deliver my final awakening .. I pray thus: My loneliness is killing me (and I) I must confess, I still believe (still believe) When I’m not with you I lose my mind Give me a sign Hit me, baby, one more time

Very refreshing. In my then-atheistic old country we used to celebrate the New Year with the same gusto that was reserved for Christmas in the non-atheistic parts of the world. This is the picture of the last New Year's tree I saw, located within a short walking distance from where I lived. It wasn't the main one in the city, and therefore not the biggest -- but it was nice, and fully real. Our Grandfather Frost is not unlike Santa, but dresses somewhat differently (the hat especially) and doesn't go down the chimney, nor scrutinizes kids for who's naughty and who's nice, everybody gets a present. Adults didn't exchange presents, those were exclusively for kids -- whereas adults just threw and/or attended a party, usually the biggest party of the year.