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Moderator Note: In the interest of intelligibility and inclusivity we would like members to provide translations or at minimum transliterations of posts that include words or text in Chinese characters. This will give posts a wider reach and promote more wide ranging discussion. Thanks. A.

Thread locked because of tiresome drivel. FoC may reopen if there is a reason to. A.

This may not be a symptom of progress. When the mind is truly quiet and open, not grasping, there are qualities that arise spontaneously - warmth, joy, compassion, and creativity, and there is some sense that anything satisfies. The absence of these energetic manifestations of the base is an indication that something is blocking our progress. Often it is an aberrant view such as nihilism or an unbalanced practice, prioritizing the mental over the physical and emotional, for example. Another common cause of this sort of deviation is bypassing, neglecting to bring our real life challenges onto the cushion, or neglecting to bring our practice into life's activities, in a way that supports genuine transformation. Something to consider if you feel like there is something lacking in your life or your practice.

Since this was posted in the Buddhist sub, here is a Zen story for this kind of condition, which ZM Seung Sahn turned into a kong an (koan): The Buddha only taught two things: Dukkha and the end of Dukkha. Dukkha is the dissatisfaction of not getting enough of the things we want, and too much of the things we don't. Getting one's emotions under control is good, but another step is needed. As Oldbob mentioned, desire can be a useful energy. In Zen terms, the desire to wake up our to our true selves keeps us on the path. And then, when we see that, we help others to do the same. To me, that is the ultimate teaching of the Buddha's enlightenment. He didn't just sit there with the knowledge of his true self. He shared it with the world. _/|\_ Keith

One of my favorite modern parables is Anthony Demello's parable about Jesus, or someone like him... "A man invents the art of making fire and travels to cold, snow-covered regions where hill tribes shiver in the bitter cold. He teaches them how to make fire, showing them its benefits—staying warm, cooking food, building shelters. The people learn eagerly and are deeply grateful. But before they can thank him, he quietly slips away, uninterested in recognition or praise, embodying the nature of true greatness. He moves to another tribe and teaches them the same skill. His popularity grows, alarming the local priests who fear losing their influence. They poison him. When suspicion arises, the priests act swiftly to protect themselves. They place a portrait of the Great Inventor on the temple altar and create a liturgy to honor his name. The tools he used to make fire are enshrined in a sacred casket, believed to heal those who touch them with faith. The High Priest writes a biography of the Inventor, which becomes a Holy Book—celebrating his love, glorifying his deeds, and declaring his divine nature as a core article of faith. The priests ensure the Book is passed down through generations, interpreting its meaning authoritatively and punishing any deviation with excommunication or death. Over time, the rituals, worship, and veneration are meticulously preserved for decades, then centuries. Yet, despite all the reverence, there is no fire. The people have forgotten how to make it. They have ritual, gratitude, and devotion—but no transformation. Prayer is not a symbol of fire—it is fire itself, meaning inner transformation through awareness. If worship doesn’t lead to love, if liturgy doesn’t bring clearer perception, if God doesn’t lead to life, then religion is useless—breeding only division and fanaticism. The world doesn’t lack religion; it lacks love and awareness. True spirituality is not about rituals, but about awakening to reality, seeing through illusions, and allowing the fire of awareness to change your being."

Jesus H. Christ.

The story also points out that wisdom without compassion is meaningless. As the monk does realize the daughter is there not because of some great emotional connection. But, he misses the point of her being there at all. And thus, having realized the monk has not learned this, the old woman burnt the hermitage down which also shows that wisdom without compassion is not complete. True, words on paper do not always convey the true tone of the words. However, from what I have read of your posts, I do realize that you do have much more knowledge of these matters and also have given them much more thought than I have. So, I have no wish to argue a pointless point and just leave it to opinion.

I have great respect for the body of teachings and teachers that represents the lineage I am part of. The lineage is meant to embody an unbroken lineage between the teacher, back to the Buddha, and even further to the primordial buddhas. Teachers in my tradition are generally supposed to have realization, and therefore be able to apply skillful means to help others realize themselves. Having said that, I have encountered a number of teachers who aren't, but still embody kindness and have deep familiarity with the teachings, and with few exceptions, they are a refuge to those they meet. Our pledge is to be the vehicle for the greatest kindness, the dharma, with the intent to help others to realize Samyak Sambodhi , or "supreme, complete, and perfect awakening" in this lifetime. The way to embody that practice is the way of the Bodhisattva, and I aim to (imperfectly) be that refuge for all beings. Having said that, the Buddha way is not the only vehicle by a long shot, and I have deep respect for all of those pursuing the true nature of reality. BTW, Steve, thank you so much for your beautiful paragraph, and your continued practice and service to others. _/\_

Another factor is that those "serious things" are often quite secretive, sometimes for good reason, perhaps sometimes not. I know that I feel uncomfortable sharing things my teacher asked us to keep to ourselves, be that personal experiences and insights from practice, specific information, or practical instruction. In part this is because certain information can be useless, misinterpreted, or even harmful when pursued before the student is prepared. Not saying a focused and well--moderated neidan forum would necessarily be a bad idea but I do think there will be challenges.

I think people who know serious things, if I can put it that way, are nervous about posting their ideas and being greeted with ridicule or low IQ takes. It’s a frustrating and depressing experience. As is immediate derailment into the world of slop.

Less dimwittery and slop.

My own view is that Existence is generated, always penetrated and finally terminated by the Unmanifest. Once I wondered about ancient names for The Source of All and immediately the word Empyrean appeared spelt in my mind - as used by Aristotle - but even Aristotle was struggling to find the suitable human words https://everything.explained.today/Empyrean/ The Source of All provides life force and intent for all substance and intelligence - until TSoA has had enough experiences at which stage Existence ceases and a Mahapralaya continues until the next Existence. Mahāpralaya (महाप्रलय).—'the great dissolution', the total annihilation of the universe at the end of the life of Brahman, when all the lokas with their inhabitants, the gods, saints &c. including Brahman himself are annihilated; महाप्रलयमारुत (mahāpralayamāruta) ...... Ve.3.4. https://www.wisdomlib.org/definition/mahapralaya

你真是太懂我了！Nǐ zhēnshi tài dǒng wǒle! შენ ჩემს აზრებს კითხულობ! Shen chems azrebs k’itkhulob! Ты прочёл мои мысли! Ty prochyol moyi mysli! You have read my thoughts! /ju hæv rɛd maɪ θɔts/ The second line of the above is in Georgian. I don't know the language but I do know the alphabet. Me and my girlfriends at school learned it from a Georgian classmate circa the 6th grade in order to exchange coded messages during lessons by transliterating them into that alphabet. The motives were strictly pragmatic -- so that classmates who passed little pieces of paper with messages along, or the teachers should they intercept them, wouldn't be able to read them. Now I wonder... what purpose does it serve to use a writing system here guaranteed to not be understood by nearly everyone on the forum. Just curious.

Wonderful! There is always a tension between the mystic and the monastic. The monastic believes that the written word is what leads to transformation, and the gnostic gnows that it only points the way. Being a gnostic (or heretic, depending on one's perspective) is a dangerous business.

To think that the supreme creator of all things, or some higher or lower power, could do no better than the writings of the various extant and extinct religious traditions, their moral failings, farcical inaccuracies, and biases, is sort of comical IMO. No personal attack intended Haribol, my apologies if you take any offense. In my opinion, scriptures are the product of the human mind. I think the more interesting question is what are the origins and factors that influence human creativity, insight, and imagination?

In my experience The Source of All (the Dao) has a manifesting impulse and a non-manifesting impulse - hence the dream I had demonstrating both. Many humans (and other soul-bearing species) can access both "soul-bearing" is used in a non-technical sense

有理必争, 無理更必争?

Yes, 道醫 is therapeutic. Only those who knows the concept of 性命雙修. Then it would be therapeutic.

You are absolutely correct, we hide our weak bodies in the shadow, but we shouldn't fear the light either my dearest 氣龍.

Before going into spirituality which i love, i need to practice some more of our Taoist medecine joint cultivation of Xing and Ming 道醫性命雙修 to heal and maintain a healthy ordinary life. Can't say i do Neidan at the moment because it won't be true. You got me loud and clear in the poor joke message, but i feel responsability to make my position clearer and clearer little by little anyways.

If you like life to the point of wanting more of it; if you’ve found a way that keeps life’s struggles, disappointments, heartbreaks, horrifics, calamities, from beating you down, if you’ve reached the golden years And still yearn for more, platinum or palladium years,,, it’s not that you dread a physical death, far from it, as that is the next fantastical adventure,,, yet, for whatever personal reasons you may have,, continuing your current adventures in the physical realm remain attractive for you,,, this thread is for you. I started here in 2009, when 90+% of my breath had died. https://archive.org/details/taoisthealthexer0000dali Time for me to do a re-read and I wholeheartedly recommend ya’ll take a look at it. Da Liu never once visited a doctor and lived in good health ninety six years. Different strokes for different folks. There are a few that lived to 108+ while smoking cigars and drinking whisky; this method won’t work for everyone. Get in where you fit in. There are meditations and qigong that enable those in their seventies to feel like they’re seventeen. These gifts are bestowed, rarely, you don’t order them off google. The movie, The Green Mile touched upon some drawbacks of extended longevity. Always be careful what you wish for. I like the YouTube channel Physionic Here’s a sample episode I like Baguazhang with it’s Limitless potentials

The is the principle of Wu Wei, let nature take its course. Except the first quote is because there was an intend.

At no point have I ever been concerned about death. I just want a clean healthy life while I'm here in the physical. Wind it back to 1926.

Actually, I did like to stay using the original characters of 無 and 有. It is because if I use them, the original thought remains. Somehow, I was reluctantly to use 'invisible' and 'visible'. Since it was a translation, that was the closest I can come up with to please the public.

Hi Tommy, No need to apologize for disagreeing! That's a nice feature of Buddhism. It is (except for Pure Land) a "self-power" religion. It's up to you to take on board what is useful, and reject what isn't. A teacher helps to keep things going in the right direction. My take is all of Buddhism is an expedient means to point us to a shift that can only be experienced. Originally, there is no dukkha, no end of dukkha. But, it is pretty easy to track down quotes from the Buddha where he says words to the effect of "I teach dukkha, and the end of dukkha." Of course, those quotes weren't actually written down in the Pali Suttas until over 400 years after his death, so who knows? And, there is some debate about the exact way to translate it. But, the gist is there. Regarding opinions, be careful. They are one of the main ways the idea of a self is reified. The story simply cautions us not to become dead, unfeeling robots, like the monk did. This a major misunderstanding, especially from the Mahayana perspective. It's not a matter of simple opinion. Also, I would just like to point out that for me, online conversations are just "shooting the bull" kind of conversations. I suspect I come across as some kind of Buddhist know-it-all. There is no tone of voice, body language, etc., to our conversations here. Just words on a screen, and we as readers are left to fill in the tone, etc. It's a very poor substitute for in-person conversations. _/|\_ Keith

Thanks, 氣龍 my friend 🙇🏻

@steve @stirling "whats yours (and anyone else whod like to comment) attitude to displic succession and assotiation?

Thank you very much for your explainations, i didn't know.

If you think a post violates forum rules, you have the option of reporting it. Your report may appear to vanish into the ether, never to be acknowledged again, but rest assured that every report is considered. If you have a more general suggestion pertaining to the running of the board, you could private message any member of staff.

I am sorry. I disagree with this "Buddha only taught two things." When you live with a person and follow them around, you learn their manner and their wisdom and their compassion. The Buddha might have only spoken about Dukka but much more was passed on than just words. The Dharma is not just about Dukka. Well, that is just my opinion. And, I accept that I am probably wrong. So no argument. I will bow to your wisdom and live the way I see fit. With respect to the story, everyone has their own opinion. The monk has his. The daughter has hers. The old woman certainly has hers. Not everyone agrees. And so I have mine. Apologies.

It seems like Xing is equivocated to Buddhanature by Liu Yiming in his commentary to Awakening Reality and Huang Yuanji from the Middle School. The Secret of the Golden Flower I believe was incorporated into the Longmen Pai by Ming De. Wang Mu in his Foundations reject that there is a one to one comparison, so there is a spectrum of views. I don't think this is necessarily the case in many Southern or other schools.

I am not sure it's all that realistic, I was just reacting to the that hijacked this topic. Maybe it's too late in the TDB day for quality control. It was being controlled for something else for too long, through no fault of the current mod team I should add, not their fault at all.

I don´t see any reason why the special rule you suggest couldn´t be implemented; the forum could be anything it´s members want it to be. The hitch is that once you kick the football players off the tennis team, will there be enough tennis players left to have a game? It might be interesting to query the members here and find out how many have a neidan teacher and lineage and would be willing to say. In the event that people don´t want to post their teacher / lineage publically they could share this info with ForestofClarity privately as a condition of entrance.

Theres nothing in the tibetan buddhist canon mentioning mixing any other methods and whether to work with them or not so its an opinion that varies with every teacher Many lamas practice qi gong in fact, i'm guessing because its gentler than tsa lung for those of advanced age Ming methods do absolutely exist in vajrayana but they aren't very commonly taught unless you know what you're looking for, generally the goal is to get students out of the burning building of samsara first and ask questions later, and sadly there just aren't many that make it past the initial important step to see what else there is The amritasiddhi still has a lineage of transmission in vajrayana in fact, which is very close to neidan Its just not a transmission you would really see unless you sought out a lama that could give it to you and requested it Similarly, a gnostic christian wouldn't know what you meant by ming, but you might be interested to know that the christian monks of mount athos are where the english term "navel gazing" comes from Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche is a teacher in the bon tradition, it shares quite a bit of similarities with vajrayana but draws more from the traditional tibetan religion Bon ranges all the way from slightly domesticated shamans to full on monastic buddhism lol, theres quite a bit of variety

The important point in dreaming is not the content but 'who is dreaming?' Ming has no direct equivalent. It is like going to a Gnostic Christian 'why you refuse to teach me Ming, are you high or something?' 😁

not much mention about the ways and means that the Devas and Gods help out mankind? (including helping the historic Buddha at a critical juncture) What gives? Just meditate and be happy is all it takes.... since we have "our books and poetry to protect us" along with an all powerful intellect.

Grok is to move beyond theoretical/received understandings - and to experience what stands under the perceived reality. Hence arises genuine understanding. English is good when used carefully. It is said that the genuine/inner initiate is a wordsmith - making sure that the words used actually begin/stimulate a valued process.

It is one thing to still the conscious part of the mind, it is quite another to nourish your humanness - to produce aliveness in mind and emotions. Perhaps your humanness needs to be whole in order to swim in the cosmic ocean

欲以觀其妙。 Observe Tao's invisible characteristic by intuition. It took quite sometimes for me to find the right English words for the translation! Notes: Grok is a neologism coined by the American writer Robert A. Heinlein for his 1961 science fiction novel Stranger in a Strange Land. While the Oxford English Dictionary summarizes the meaning of grok as "to understand intuitively or by empathy, to establish rapport with" and "to empathize or communicate sympathetically (with). Qule: a property as it is experienced as distinct from any source it might have in a physical object

Even though 天地 did not use here. The logic still holds with 萬 物.

I am not sure that chaos is the right word. How does chaos form a non-chaotic thing. A thing must be low-chaotic to have a form Perhaps humans do not perceive easily what Is before Existence occurs

Religions are created by gnostics. A gnostic is someone who gains insight into the nature of reality. The gnostic can't shut up about it (typical gnostic thing) and so alienates, scares the shit out of, and excites a variety of the people he encounters with tales of his path. If the gnostic is persuasive enough, some of those who listen get the idea that they could do the same thing if they just do precisely as the gnostic has done. They write down his story as they remember it, but often misquoting or adding bits that they think are true or helpful, couching it in language that THEY understand but that may slightly obscure the teachings. Eventually the teacher leaves, or dies, and the stories from his path get distorted over time. Larger groups form into a religion where the 'teachings" are shared, practiced, etc. Eventually some of the people doing these practices "awaken" themselves, perhaps accidentally stumbling on to some of the fairly simple pithy principles at the center of the now fairly elaborate religion. As gnostics, they understand that the practices themselves were not the mechanism for illumination, or concoct their own practices, being able to see where the religion has become slightly or greatly corrupted, and they often leave to teach what they know based on their own path. The way to enlightenment isn't actually hidden, it is man that corrupts what is actually a fairly simple set of principles.

Had to look that up, and yes I absolutely agree. Of course, Tibetan Buddhism, Daoism, and Ch'an all grew up together in Northern China in a particular period and were not always taught strictly as separate schools, apparently . Contrast ""quiet sitting" (靜坐; jìngzuò), with shikantaza's "silent illumination" (mozhao, Chinese: 默照).

On topic: I had to look up Xing, but I would say it best correlates to the Tibetan Buddhist term "Rigpa", the primordial "awareness" that is the essence of all things, surpassing all teachings, religions and philosophies. Here are couple of a nifty quoteson Rigpa and the contrast between intellectual knowledge and that which comes with gnosis (elaborating on some of my previous comments): You actually don't need complete enlightenment to be able to reliably understand what Rigpa is. A qualified (realized) teacher can give you an introduction to the nature of it that, with practice, you can use to identify and rest in as the simplest most direct practice possible. This is the essence of both Dzogchen (or Atiyoga) practice AND the deepest meditative practice of Zen, Shikantaza.

Various scriptures have different origins . Avestas - Various oral traditions / 'hymns' that evolved through centuries that were later written down and standardized much later which was a small percentage of a much larger earlier collection . Judaism - adopted several different cultural stories ( from Canaanite , Zoroastrian and Babylonian sources ) and wrote a 'religious history ' lifted from Assyrians ( eg old 'United Kingdom' , Solomon and his 'empire ' ) , 'found ' a scared Book of Law ( Torah ) and wrote up a back story , attempting to take over the northern kingdom of Israel ( Josiah ) and eventually moved into some historical documentation of themselves after that . Christianity - 1/2 their scripture borrowed from the above and the other half are gospels , which are highly suspect and full of all sorts of other ideas and politics of the time . Islam - where do I start ? Actually ; pass . - aside from that , a few times I have shared my ideas about origins and spread of religions ..... post ice age , ie . human accrued experience, not divine revelation . - the further we go back the moire we attribute to as 'gifts from God/s ' . However to explore you question in the affirmative , look at 'progressive revelation ( eg within a religion ; that would be 'Christian progressive revelation ' ) or perhaps more in answer to your question , overall including all religions and times and peoples , ( see Baha'i progressive revelation concept ) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_revelation_(Baháʼí) .

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Probably, but it may be hard to find. Even neigong the real deal is something that is mostly taught in private, one on one, for all kinds of reasons. E.g. "pearls before the swine" is avoided, "teacher tell all, go hungry" is another consideration, persecution of taoists that repeated many times throughout history (communists didn't invent it, emperors did long before them) and what not. The culture has always been big on "family secrets," "secret skills," "secret manuals," "secret formulas,' "secret transmissions" and so on, from neidan to porcelain to herbal formulas to martial styles, it was more common than not to not tell everything, and often tell nothing outside the family or school. This is not just history, this is also true in our time. Even though a lot of Chinese movies and Jin Yong's novels are centered around the pursuit of such secrets , all of it has a real-life cultural counterpart. If the private forum materializes, I might tell a story or two... can't share in a public space, so for now they are secret.

Ever since the original Neidan concept exited, why should it be gone? It is always there. The concept do not change, only the misinterpretation change it.

The CPC is known to have insisted on the "out with the old, in with the new" approach most decisively for decades. Traditional arts and sciences were condemned, taoist temples burned to the ground, practitioners publicly humiliated, sent to "reeducation camps" and so on. The legacy lingers -- although later they took a somewhat different stance and the pendulum started moving toward "restoration." They realized that all those things they used to condemn can be turned into tourist attractions and marketable trinkets. So it's not unusual to encounter views in people influenced by this sort of education that glorify things traditional at the cost of the tradition itself, by reformulating it in "modern" quasi-scientific terms. Instead of forbidding all things cultivation they try to give them Western style respectability. This is a very simplified picture of course...

accursed spirit = po; field = tien = tian