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It is typical in daoist thought that things are described in either the physical or the subtle. An example in neidan would be how a internal subtle change is made, which then will cascade leading to change in the external. An example of the opposite is in wuji stance, you let gravity pull you towards the earth, this constant pulling leads to small stretches of your relaxed muscles, which will lead to development of more Huang which in turn will lead to better qi conduction. From the physical to the subtle. I think it's completely valid to drag in physics and biology/chemistry into the equation, but the question should be where in the cascading process do they fit in, in whatever specific circumstance is being discussed. As a daoist you'd either make a small change that sets off a natural chain of responses, or strengthen an already ongoing natural process, to either speed it up or because the strengthened accumulation will result in an effect the weaker process couldn't make happen without the strengthening. From an internal arts perspective that is... A long rambling basically to say that i agree As for what concepts are related or not, that's probably as much of a matter of perspective and personal opinion or even preference for how minute or detailed things should be laid out.

Ah i think I see the mismatch, chidragon have you experienced and do you believe in energetic phenomena? Its pretty much the foundation of neidan, the belief through experience that there are three energetic treasures in the human body being jing, qi, and shen Every neidan classic details the methods of working with and transforming these three non-physical substances and the non-physical effects that begin to be perceived that indicate correct practice I think most qigong can be "clinical" as in completely attributed to the physical body like you describe, but neidan specifically requires the philosophical backing of an energetic system, otherwise you wouldn't have anything to transform What you're talking about is definitely interesting, it just isn't neidan as is practiced by people from the lineages here such as dragons gate, wuliupai, or the greater quanzhen tradition all of which are primary sources

Welcome to the board, Mr. Corndogs! Lurking is fine, but do please ask some questions - the questions are what generate the interesting answers!

I would frame it a little differently (but understand your point, would just say it is not a believe ....more like have you experienced chi and how it flows through the meridians and is distinct from physical matter? Same with jing? Yuanqi and jing are even more subtle...

No, I got the exact answer I needed from the way I asked

I recognize these dance steps! I see these people, and I dance with them every weekend, at the local native American casino.

Which chi are talking about? I only listen to people say what they think chi is. When I see the term Chi in a text, I will be very carefully try to figure out what the contextual meaning at that instance. Most people are brain washed that chi is energy. I think that is what you are asking me! Do I belive chi the same way as other people do? Sorry, my answer is no.

Yup the truly oldschool can still receive the goods directly from the gods. And yes caring for ones ancestors can be a big part of that. Why do you think Lao Tsu's whole deal was about growing the dé? It wasn't until around a thousand years ago when TCM became advanced to where scholars cross-referenced the Yijing with the Zangfu (not entirely unlike something the AI might pull..) and discovered a way to survive sneaking into the Forbidden Kingdom. Dragons are even older than all that. When you're a dragon, all you really need is breathe

“Step 2: Seek Qualified Lineage Teacher” This was good advice tho

Well, there are different approaches to it. WLP is the school where there are closer relationships, but there are other approaches as well. Southern schools require closer relationships, while in northern ones it is not like that — the student receives the method and gets in touch with a teacher sometimes, so it is more open to the public, but the student is less dependent on the teacher. This is because in Southern methods there is a much bigger chance of deviations, as Ming work is involved from the very beginning; the more Ming one has, the greater the chance of deviations

No that doesn’t follow at all. Not even by analogy. But I’m glad you cleared up your argument for the idea of a unit. Substance is a better word to use especially in the context of Neidan. It is more accurate although of course one needs to be crystal clear about what exactly a substance is in this context.

Ack, I forgot. "There was a study" (got to use this ridiculous phrase that, without further examination, has 0% information validity value in all cases) which asserted that people who live together for a long time use each other as extended memory files, which benefits their individual memory. Perhaps people who post together for a long time also reap those anti-forgetfulness benefits? My favorite lines were, "This octopus, let's give him boots, send him to North Korea" ...and the way they rhymed it with "gonorrhea."

Spiritual Paradigm of Chess Part 1 Some religious Comparisons Spiritual Paradigm of Chess Part 1 : The Chessboard is familiar to most and is illustrated below: In making a study of this analogy we can demonstrate that games can have multiple co-existing levels of interpretation. In this article we attempt introduce the concept of how chess might relate to the spiritual journey. The use of Tarot where appropriate has also been integrated to provide further graphical analogy to chess symbolism.In the diagram below we can see the analogy between the game of chess and its two armies and the battlefield of the Hindu text ‘The Bhagavad Gita’ and in this scenario confusion reigned in Arjuna’s mind. Should Arjuna participate in the terrible carnage of battle & was it proper to destroy one’s relatives for the sake of a kingdom and some pleasures? Would it not be much better for him to surrender everything in favour of his enemies and retire in peace? As these thoughts rushed into his mind, a feeling of despondency overtook Arjuna. He had no enthusiasm to engage in this battle. Letting his bow slip from his hands, Arjuna could do nothing but turn to Lord Krishna for guidance and enlightenment. The conversation between Krishna and Arjuna then forms the basis of the book. This is very symbolic of the true spiritual journey where we often have to choose between our friends and sometimes our family if we want to devote the time we need to our spirituality. Those closest to us quite often resist any change within us. It also dispels the notion that the spiritual path is always a peaceful one although the prize is a peace and stillness beyond measure in the infinite stillness of God. This analogy of conflict on the spiritual path is not confined to Hinduism.It is also illustrated in the Bible in many areas for example in the Book of Revelation with the four horses of the apocalypse: Again there has been widespread misinterpretation of this being an outer conflict with religious Christian fundamentalists, and also of many churches unable or unwilling to unravel its true meaning; the red horse = emotions, black = intellect (the mind is blind to the light of God), pale = physical and the white horse = spiritual. So we can see that introducing this topic the battlefield of chess has some direct comparisons to religious texts. In the next section we will take a look at the chess board itself in greater detail and a closer look at how the principles of the game may relate to our spiritual path. https://www.esotericmeanings.com/spiritual-paradigm-of-chess-part-1/

Your translation literally differentiate between breath and Chi. I'm not sure why you keep saying "in the west", Chinese daoist view Chi as an energy or "subtle substance" as well. There's plenty of Chinese practitioners on youtube you can look up yourself. You're free to pursue whatever path you believe is the correct one, but don't try to overturn well established concepts. It only muddies discussions and benefits no one.

No ... it won't . My life doesnt get changed by watching f***ing ' animie clip ' - is this what its come to now ? My life gets changed by observing life . and , by the way , I would have caught the butterfly instead and then released it to fly away ... and spiders dont die if they dont eat a butterfly , plenty of others things for a spider to eat . But you won't learn that from watching animie .

That's actually a great point. Thanks for the reminder!

We share the same main idea, just applied in different ways for different purposes. Unfathomable conceptual depths if we are speaking of nature's intelligence and wisdom at work within natural processes. Thanks for the reminder, to solve this problem we may need a way to know and do something with our own pre-heavenly and post-heavenly bias, living beings with human shape are very subjective indeed.

So far, even though, many people had claimed that they have practiced Neidan. Unfortunately, we did not get a satisfied description for the method of Neidan. Before we leave this thread, I still have some unfinished business to be completed. It is to translation for the information that I had acquired from AI. It is very interesting what AI reveal the secret of Qigong ang Neigong. It is not going to be somebody's make up story. Rather, it is the fundamental concept that was passed down from generation to generation in the Taoist society. The idea of Neidan was derived from the concept in TCM. The TCM was using the three treasures to explain what took place inside the human body. Especially, the concept of the preservation of the prenatal Jing was what initiated the practice of Neidan. Hopefully, the life can be prolonged or even become an immortal(仙).

Hi and welcome. Posting can make one realise one is a fool oneself, and that’s where learning starts.

Yes, you could put it like that. In the wuji stance example, you could say Wuji stance -> better qi conduction. But the actual process is a longer chain and depending on how detailed you'd want to be, you could go from outer cosmo to inner cosmo. Could start out from outer cosmo: How the earths yin energy alongside the wuji stances natural stability rooted with earth makes you more receptive of the heavens yang energy, the earths yin (think gravity) pulling (yang) your relaxed muscles towards it, creating space (yin) which in turn the Huang will naturally want to fill out and the qi will empower the build up of more Huang (as Huang is highly conductive to qi) and now we're in the inner cosmo. How the space created by the pull of the muscles creates a yin field and the yang conducted energy in the Huang will move towards that field. Anyway i'm rambling again, my point is, one "action" leads to a whole series of effects and reactions. It can be viewed as succinctly as you'd want, but you could say the main idea is you borrow naturally occurring processes to power change by taking a certain "action" which leads to a series of natural reactions to occur. (also don't take my process description as correct as i just threw it together for illustrations sake). A Technique could have one or more of these "process starting" actions, but i'd say that mainly, one technique would correspond to wanting one specific process to happen and while multiple actions may happen during that technique, but these are used to setup the "environment" or dominoes if you will, so when you do the main/final specific action, the environment/dominoes, are correct/aligned and the process you wish to happen, occurs. (sorry for the long answer). Yes, but i was talking of conceptual depth of any process (as showed above), but i agree that when investigating anything, hammering down as many facts as possible will give you a solid framework to lean on when investigating what is "unknown". Though how to then approach that investigation may still be coloured by belief or opinion or even just a "hunch" from slightly similar experiences from past investigations

If i get it right, you are reffering to two different phases of a same cycle? Practiced separatedly through different technics or together as one within any technics ? Thank you for sharing, it allows me to verify and confirm once again the principles behind my own practice. In any serious investigation into the nature of things it makes sense that personal beliefs and opinions should be left out of the way. For instance, i try to understand where heavy loaded concepts such as morality could fit into a study of the inherent principles of Life? Of course it's perfectly fine to have one's own personal beliefs and opinions, a lot of key scientists in history had their own, maybe that was their talent or trained abilities to know how to make and understand differences that allowed them to not mix things up.

Alright... necro'ing this thread after a busy week where participation hasn't been what's happening. That would make sense to me, though what "morally superhuman" might mean probably won't jibe with what most people would guess it does. Further conversation probably needed. I'm going to mix and match here and bring up the "Four Stages of Attainment" from the Buddhist Pali Canon. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fruits_of_the_noble_path#The_four_stages_of_attainment In this case, I think we are comparing the K&C of the HGA to "Stream Entry", or more commonly in all traditions, "awakening". This the first of the "attainments" and suggests that the "fetters" of: • Identity view (belief in a "self") • Doubt in Buddha (no doubt that the practices "work") • (Attachment to) ascetic or ritual rules ...drop away. The other fetters continue on, but are increasingly attenuated to some degree as these "fetters" continue to drop away. Sensual desire continues, but the character of it is eventually changed until the view of complete "no self" changes how these are understood and experienced. This is a great mystery to me. I have NO Christian background, belief system, or association. I guess someone could (would?) argue that it is because this is the deeper reality of things, but I think it is possibly more to do with the summoning and terminology (Holy Guardian Angel) I used. Had to look that word up. All of these visions have an aureola of sorts, most are like golden setting sun/candle tone that surrounds the whole area of the vision for 3 feet or so. The HGA had a blue/gray light. I was shocked a few months after having the first few visions to see the show "Evil" depict an angel visitation that also fits this description wonderfully. Can't seem to find any pictures to share from the show of one of those episodes online... Agree. In my case, I would say it would most correspond to these two (above).

Austin Kleon — Photo by Mark Meth Cohn from The Nikon Comedy...

Since they are so closely intertwined within living matter, the Bio-chemical and Bio-physical models perhaps can't reasonably be considered separatly despite their differences. A possible cause of confusion could be to introduce unrelated concepts into a subject which basically pertains to natural sciences.

I think what's being referred to is that in certain daoist traditions the root of the energetic treasures is said to be from the parents rather than anything christian for example from 重陽真人金關玉鎖訣 "Perfected Chongyang also commented, “Nothing is ever separated from yin and yang; what lives must borrow vital essence from the father and blood from the mother. These two substances are the root of the body. All of the people of today who practice cultivation do not take care of their father’s essence and their mother’s blood" (translated by komjathy)

Came over this short, and due to the last thirty seconds of the (extremely good) video you posted, it felt right to share the short as well:

Not my translation, AI's one. Integration of opposites to find a point from which 'we' could discuss, research, study and learn something about common principles is a good idea indeed !

I would say that jing is what makes the body a living organism rather than a collection of chemicals. Jing is passed on from parents because conception is an energetic event and not just a bio- chemical one.

This is like you say because what you do is mostly fitness, no more than that. Of course, there is more freedom in fitness

Yes, I have heard about the deviation refers to qi sickness. I had mention the breathing problem in my PPD. I don't know if that is what they are referring to as "qi sickness". It is in my PPD post of "The ultimate method of breathing". Anyway, my breathing is good. I don't think I could produce this qi sickness or go insane.

I think there are two kinds of forgiveness. One is where you able to see that the offender might be incapable of real remorse, or you can understand his wrongdoing based on him having a tough life or something. In this case, I «forgive them» mentally. That is to say, I try to let go of the hurt and anger and such, but might not be willing to keep in touch with them any longer. Not because I hate them, I do not, but because I’m not willing to spend time and energy on people who don’t value me. It doesn’t do any good for anyone. The second kind, where we might have done something truly hurtfull to people we love, I believe a genuine and heartfelt apology is necessary. In the Harry Potter series, there is something called horcruxes. These are objects that can be used to store segments of one’s soul in order to achieve immortality. But since it is in the nature of the soul to be whole, one has to murder another in order to create a fragmented piece to be stored as a horocrux. There is one way to make it whole again tho: genuine remorse.

I already have , in other older posts , in detail . Do a google seach asking about the key words and terms you want to know about including a narrowing that they are to be from daobus forum . As I said above ; if people in refugia (or even larger areas ) didnt (or even still dont ) have social systems that support survival under pressure ... they probably are not around anymore . here is another one , going back to lake Baikal and further east in the Russian Steppe ; veneration of the dog . Not only did it spread over the top to Nth America , traces of the tradition are evident in Zoroastrianism ; which had strict legislation about the dog protecting it , in various levels of 'dog classes' and ( as outlined in the first part of the vid below ) associated with soul transmigration , a bridge crossing and a dog guardian ( here the difference is , on the 'Chinvat Bridge ' you meet your 'Daena' who is accompanied by a dog ) see from 8:27

Errrmmmmmmm , well ..... .

That Ermakov book was first published in 1995. The 90s were the lawless decade for the freshly collapsed USSR, and there's no end to horror stories I heard and read about those times... but they were unique in that respect, those times I mean. I did take that trip as a toddler, and I could swear I remember stuff -- except my mom told me stories about it later, so it's hard to tell now which ones I really remember and which ones came alive for me based on what she told me. If anything, according to my mom people on the train were afraid of me, because I looked like a much younger child but talked like a much older one -- they thought I was some bewitched infant, and some old ladies discreetly made the sign of the cross...

double

Above it is stated how these people (or the ancestors of the modern Ainu ) contribute to Amerindian populations ; as a curiosity , check this out ; '' Northwest Coast designs are a bit easier to read, sometimes. For example, certain designs such as bears can be identified, but other designs on the bear can be very difficult, for example, frogs coming from the eyes, or wolves on sea bears, both very abstract. More difficult are design elements known collectively as “formline designs.” The known individual elements have been given names such as Ovoid, Tertiary-S, U-form, Split-U, the Salmon-trout’s head, and negative and positive space. Each design element may have countless variations. We don’t know the Native terms for the elements if in fact there were Native terms. '' Historically, other possibilities for east-west artistic influences existed through personal contact or through trade ‘brokers.’ My research reveals oral narratives on both sides of the North Pacific that tell of early contact with each other. Based on interviews of Ainu and Northwest Coast elders from the Tlingit area (now southern Alaska), the Aleutian Islands seem to have been the most logical trans-Pacific route for the Ainu, Aleut and Tlingit peoples. The Aleutian people, neighbors of the Tlingit, certainly traveled east and west, and they no doubt traveled to Kamchatka where the Kamchatka Ainu lived.'' https://apjjf.org/chisato-kitty-dubreuil/2589/article Haida ( Indigenous people of America NW pacific coast ) Some textiles show varied influence ;

You could read Dmitry Ermakov's book as a replacement for the experience ..... eventually he took the journey ... part of it talks about how infamous some trains were around there - due to 'inter ethnic' knife fights on the train .

Interesting thread, thank you.

???

Using AI to get any reliable information whatsoever is foolish. At best you'll just have a bunch of random sources you now have to go read through, hoping they are of decent quality. Qi gong is a modern term while neidan is a much older term. Any true qi gong ("true" as in, effective at internal change) is based on the principles of the Yi Jin Jing. I wouldn't consider neidan to be covered by the modern qi gong term. Nei gong could probably be put as a subcategory or part of qi gong, but that still wouldn't make neidan the same as any qi gong. Neidan is mainly a meditative, seated or standing, internal practice. Nei gong would usually include movements and such to guide internal energy. Also thinking AI will provide better translations than a professional human translator is ridiculous. At best it'll provide a mixture of modern and old professional translations of the work it's attempting to translate. At worst it'll drop in all kinds of random stuff from a whole host of mixed sources with a high variation in quality. Also would not actually support the people that worked hard on making a high quality translation of a work. As for the practice of neidan, i'll leave that commentary to the more senior members here. We should at least be able to somewhat agree on the meaning of the terms used, before any constructive conversation or debate can be had. Hopefully this post have managed to do so.

In my mind, this is a different issue. This example is more related to rules and consequences. The master of a lineage does not need to feel forgiveness for the precept-breaker, they need to enforce the rules in order to preserve the tradition or insure optimal training. I can forgive someone and still expect them to be appropriately punished. The master can feel genuine compassion and forgiveness and still exact punishment in order to teach a lesson. The forgiveness is in my heart, the punishment is an attempt to modify behavior, two very different things for me.

deep diplomatic thinking as usual on your part Steve.... then again we dont' have to over think a case where student (new or advanced) breaks the vows or precepts of an order that they belong to is not automatically forgiven by the lineage holder unless they go through some type of repentance or corrections of varying degrees depending on the offense....and if they don't do that they are simply kicked out, or maybe worse karma than that will come their way.

Yeah, it may be does the search through the Bums and takes ChiDragon' posts as the truth and then recommends it back to ChiDragon. Then he will say to all of us: "You see, I was right, AI is telling the same things that I say!"

and can transmit the yuan Qi

AI (grok and perplexity) often make things up it is well known. You can use them as a research tool with caution but you have to check everything with sources. You cannot rely on AI for interpretation or guidance.

I asked AI how to become a master at this. It's sources were random threads on reddit, thedaobums and healingtaousa.

and there you have it folks ! ^ How we used to organize things and meet up ..... before mobile phones, social media and the internet !

Pushkin Boulevard, Donetsk. It used to be my most stomped stomping ground -- the road from home to school, then to the university, then to work. To two theaters (Drama and Opera/Ballet) and two movie theaters. Also a meeting place when planning stuff with friends (many benches to sit on, wooden and comfortable). A dating launchpad (the monument on the right is to Alexander Pushkin, referred to by the locals as "The Head" -- circa high school years, if undecided in advance where to go or if to go somewhere with this guy at all, agree to meet "under The Head," take it from there). And a walking strip with kids -- in a stroller first, and later on foot. Roughly 15-20 minutes to get anywhere at all from home. No car and screw public transportation. It was a lucky location in that respect.

Ahem. Mark Foote bridges ancient wisdom and modern science in this remarkable exploration of seated meditation. Drawing on Gautama Buddha's original teachings, Zen masters from Dogen to Shunryu Suzuki, and contemporary research in biomechanics and neuroscience, Foote reveals how natural, automatic movement in the body emerges when we surrender volition and allow consciousness to find its own place. For practitioners seeking to understand the relationship between body and mind in meditation, A Natural Mindfulness is an invaluable guide.

Possibly it"s being confused with the Christian concept that living requires a soul to animate the material body.