Why are there fewer women than men in search of Enlightenment and Freedom from Samsara?

[Birch]

Have any of you ever seen how jaded women get after being treated like sh!t by men? i've seen many a self inflicted cut on abused women. Anyone who is treated with love and respect responds in kind to others. Men and women alike are shaped by experiences in childhood.

 

Although perceptions are personal. Does anyone in this thread practice a type/form/parody of the inner smile?

 

Well, I was treated like shit, but by women. In fact I would say my father was the incarnation of compassion, kindness and all that but lacked something to stand up for himself.

 

I did practice secret smile but it brought a lot of 'stuff' up. I didn't find it to be the 'cure-all'.

 

What I'm finding more useful at present is looking at my ideas about all kinds of things and digging around to find out where they came from and then getting rid of them. Not surprisingly, many came from 'mommy dearest's' treatment and/or example and I have been working quite hard to get rid of them but I'm often surprised at how tenacious these things can be.

 

I'm finding it interesting to try to figure out why (and at what point) I took on someone else's idea of me as if it were my own. So far it's looking like it might be one of those 'developmentally hardwired' things - because of course, had I had the choice, I would have refused these terrible ideas, right?

[Stosh]

Why is the Buddhist worldview often times so bleak?

Im agreeing with Mh here

The message IMO is that folks make things worse than they need be

that there is a direction , a purpose to it all

The 'suffering' thing , misunderstood mistranslation missing the point.

The "Middle way' thing, sound and steady advice

No bleakness unless one brings bleakness to it.

Stosh

[Aetherous]

Have any of you ever seen how jaded women get after being treated like sh!t by men? i've seen many a self inflicted cut on abused women. Anyone who is treated with love and respect responds in kind to others. Men and women alike are shaped by experiences in childhood.

 

Although perceptions are personal. Does anyone in this thread practice a type/form/parody of the inner smile?

 

Your post reminded me of seeing this a couple weeks back...

 

 

She posted this video about a month before taking her own life. Why did none of the boys stand up for her?

 

...

 

In fact I would say my father was the incarnation of compassion, kindness and all that but lacked something to stand up for himself.

 

Incarnation of compassion...this is how I believe men are supposed to be. Women...I don't have a say in what they are supposed to be.

Edited October 24, 2012 by turtle shell

[Nikolai1]

OK, this is my attempt to understand all this men women stuff:

 

The female worldview is basically the one that we are all born into and which 99.9% of people subscribe to. We exist as individual bodies and minds that exist in time and space for a while before dying. The spiritual practice that arises from this view is one of materialism. It is the practice of good deeds and making this earthly life as bearable for as many people as possible. Part of this worldview is an emphasis on physical health: our bodies are fragile and mortal and we must sustain them through good diet and various physcial regimes like hatha yoga and tai chi. This is the female worldview: it is earthy and materialistic, We all begin from this standpoint and it is what the Christians call the state of original sin.

 

The male spiritual worldview is essentially a reaction to this. It is the realisation that the body is an illusion and that time and space are nothing more than a kind of metaphor. Rather than a real world full of suffering beings there is nothing more than a kind of void, an utter emptiness. Everything is unreal like a dream - heaven is the only reality. The feminine concern for good and evil is a pointless illusion. The spiritual goal is to transcend the feminine world of rebirth - but this is hard because it is so alluring, enjoyable and convincing.

 

The enlightened worldview is realising that both the female material world and the male ideal world are two kinds of the same coin. Things neither exist nor not exist. I am the place where existence and non-existence occur together and are harmonised into one. Reality and emptiness presuppose each other - to believe in the truth of either is impossible and false.

 

Now here is where it gets complicated....

 

For the vast majority of people the opening up of the male spiritual view constitutes a significant spiritual achievement - and men are on average quicker at getting there. The female worldview is easy to grasp, we've all subscribed to it from childhood. But to understand the male view takes dedication and huge intelligence. It can therefore appear that the male way, as demonstrated by the average male seeker is the higher way.

 

But it only appears this way for a while. What most men do in their error is that they entirely substitute their male view for their original female view. They start to believe that the earthly realm of samsara is something bad or false that must be transcended. And because they do this they place themselves in a situation no higher than the female view. If you think that samsara must be avoided then you don't understand the spiritual life. You might as well plunge yourself into it headlong and your attainement will be the same.

 

Spiritual realisation is the blending of both the male and female spiritual paths where earth is the same as heaven and heaven is the same as earth. Until you realise this it is almost inevitable that you will find yourself thinking that "men are more spiritual than women", or vice versa.

 

Hope this makes, sorry it was so long...

[Birch]

That was interesting. I could've sworn 'materialist' = 'male'. Why that is, not very sure.

Anyway, I understand that the point is not to personify the principles as 'men' and 'women'. I love Taoist Yin/Yang for this as both contain each other and dynamically transform. I don't think it gets proper treatment in Shiva/Shakti - but that could be because I'm not well-versed on the dynamics of it. Where it doesn't get proper treatment is with an all powerful 'father god'.

 

--- opinion--

[Nikolai1]

In taoism:

 

Yin = earth, female

 

Yang = heaven, male

 

What I'm trying to emphasise is that the male way may appear more spiritual and advanced but it is an illusion. Spiritual enlightenment is the transcending of gender and is therefore not preceded by more men than women or vice versa. You migth say that is the realisation that male and female is actually the same thing.

[suninmyeyes]

dp

Edited October 24, 2012 by suninmyeyes

[suninmyeyes]

Stosh,

Wherether males or females are more prone to spiritual life is more individual based and the general statistics probably change as the time goes on becouse nothing is ever the same.

I wont be going through the whole thread just now , but am familiar with the general flavour of such threads and think its good to discuss , learn and balance even if fire burns too much at times.

This kind of ideas we (general we) are displying is a big pshycic wound of humanity and needs to be investigated ,desinfected , cared properly for and allowed to heal on. It can be done so on individual level which in turns influences the whole. At own pace - not acting from a point of pain, comparison and disatisfaction.

Just to add - I for one will say that man are of course able to be very spiritiual, beutiful , loving , most handsome creation on earth...and no dont get rid of men, we will kiss and hug them a lot instead.

As a woman I definetly wouldnt profess women being cleaner by birth. Never crossed my mind actually. Whats that about actually?

Edited October 24, 2012 by suninmyeyes

[ragamor]

That was interesting. I could've sworn 'materialist' = 'male'. Why that is, not very sure.

Anyway, I understand that the point is not to personify the principles as 'men' and 'women'. I love Taoist Yin/Yang for this as both contain each other and dynamically transform. I don't think it gets proper treatment in Shiva/Shakti - but that could be because I'm not well-versed on the dynamics of it. Where it doesn't get proper treatment is with an all powerful 'father god'.

 

--- opinion--

 

Notice how we humans say things like Father god and Mother earth

Maybe the truth glimmers true our everyday life as riddles?

 

Also, for a long time we are all are part of our mother, so that we (maybe) are female dominated from the get-go is not that hard to imagen.

[zanshin]

There's a warrior mentality that is very insidious in the culture, that men are supposed to be somehow above their bodies and their feelings. Even little boys are criticized for crying if they get hurt "be a man." But why this social programming for men? Nothing enlightened about it, someone wants warriors that will go hurt others with impunity, compassion is seen as weakness. Of course we see this in spiritual traditions too, heaven is reality, jihad, valhalla. Yeah, we should keep men, men should cry if they want to, we should hug them and kiss them a lot. Women probably are more materialistic since we tend to be the caregivers for children and families really do need a certain amount of stuff for comfort, security and even social status, but this gets taken to extremes.

[Nikolai1]

There's a warrior mentality that is very insidious in the culture, that men are supposed to be somehow above their bodies and their feelings.

 

The female spiritual vision is based on permanence, for example that things exist more or less stably in their own right - ie materialism. The male vision is based on impermenance, which is seeing that things are constantly trasnforming and don't stay still for even a split second.

 

Men are therefore spiritually identified with change, and can see the merit in transformations that might look like wanton destruction to female eyes. I refer to war, of course. To be a man is to be a warrior - being a man is being able to over come and overthrow.

 

Yeah, we should keep men, men should cry if they want to, we should hug them and kiss them a lot.

 

Lots of kisses from lovely women may temper their appetite for war, but ultimately the man needs to absorb female wisdom in order to know what to change and what to conserve.

 

Kisses won't actually give him this wisdom but will instead throw him out of kilter. He'll try and preserve peace at all costs until the kisses become repugnant even to him and then he'll go to war with his appetite for destruction redoubled.

Edited October 24, 2012 by Nikolai1

[zanshin]

i meant nurturing and teaching compassion, not talking about romantic attachments.

[Nikolai1]

So did I. there are lots of men who find compassion revolting, and for very good reason. Nietzsche is really good on this important point.

[三江源]

The female spiritual vision is based on permanence, for example that things exist more or less stably in their own right - ie materialism. The male vision is based on impermenance, which is seeing that things are constantly trasnforming and don't stay still for even a split second.

 

Men are therefore spiritually identified with change, and can see the merit in transformations that might look like wanton destruction to female eyes. I refer to war, of course. To be a man is to be a warrior - being a man is being able to over come and overthrow.

 

 

 

Lots of kisses from lovely women may temper their appetite for war, but ultimately the man needs to absorb female wisdom in order to know what to change and what to conserve.

 

Kisses won't actually give him this wisdom but will instead throw him out of kilter. He'll try and preserve peace at all costs until the kisses become repugnant even to him and then he'll go to war with his appetite for destruction redoubled.

 

What are 'kisses'?

[GrandmasterP]

Some people, men mainly but some women; mistake kindness or compassion for weakness.

That can be a foolish presumption especially if the person being attacked for their courtesy happens to hold a black belt as many a drunken boor in garrison town pubs can testify when the always polite soldiers of the Gurkha Regiment are stationed locally.

Edited October 24, 2012 by GrandmasterP

[Nikolai1]

What you do to men's feet

[zanshin]

Don't walk into a snake pit and try to make them to kiss your feet. (obscure Arcturian proverb).

[GrandmasterP]

Never play cards with a man who has the same name as an American city.

Contemporary English proverb....

 

 

If Chicago Bob invites you to sit in on his poker game.... DON'T

[zanshin]

You can play with Tallahassee Kenny, have some compassion and leave him with bus fare.

 

Never buy snake oil from a hamster.

[thelerner]

There's a beautiful location in Chicago on Lake Michigan. Its on the beach right off Fullerton, its a gazeboish structure I call the chess pavilion with long cement benches and chess boards set in. Most days you can find a few games going on. There are quite a few chess hustlers, mostly older russian who'll play for a buck or two a game. The first game or two will be close, but when they feel you're going to leave they'll quickly wipe the board with you. Its such a gentle hustle and the game is so good that its a pleasure to be conned.

 

Let's see..what does that have t do with woman & samsara..hmnnn.. hate to say it ladies, there are more men playing chess there then woman. So uh really nothing.

[Aetherous]

Every major and minor city should have parks with chess boards.

[zanshin]

"When men lose against me, they always have a headache ... or things of that kind. I have never beaten a completely healthy man!" - Susan Polgar

[Stosh]

I never met a woman who bothered to play chess

Never saw a woman roughhousing with the kids either

 

One time I did see a woman teaching her daughter

to do some gymnastics at the beach

I was charmed.

 

Nikolai has a complete view of it , I credit that

despite disagreeing on some minor points

 

I would add that Neitzsche also said that the drive to

the spiritual quest was the same drive of men- to power

turned inward.

Its hard to say where objectivity ends and socialization begins though.

Stosh

[Stosh]

As a woman I definetly wouldnt profess women being cleaner by birth. Never crossed my mind actually. Whats that about actually?

 

That isnt my opinion ,Im phrasing some assumptions I consider false

that folks appear to have.

Elaine Bennis likened men to a jeep. .for instance.

 

Or that it was fine for women to vote for Hillary Clinton because she was/is a woman but

it would be bad for men to vote against her for that reason.

Double standard stuff.

 

Stosh

Edited October 24, 2012 by Stosh

[三江源]

What you do to men's feet

 

well , I was serious actually. What is it that man can have a lot of from women and not manage to absorb any wisdom?