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By Deng Ming-Dao SEGMENTATION AND TRANSLATION See this block of text? It’s the arrangement of the first chapter of the Dàodéjīng before the last hundred years. If you open an old Chinese version of the Dàodéjīng, each chapter will be a block of text. No punctuation, word spacing, capital letters, or paragraphs. Distinguishing between single words and compound terms remains as much of a problem today as it was in ancient times. Imagine reading chapter 1 without the punctuation added in the early twentieth century. Reading the Dàodéjīng in its old form thus began with a practice called segmentation. You can find red dots, hóngdiǎn, 紅點, in the margins of used books, indicating where past readers began dividing, deciding, and decoding. This practice was called “sentence division,” jùdòu, 句讀, and is still done today when reading the received classics—and with only partial consensus: “Many researchers have tested Chinese native speakers’ word segmentation; a common finding is that participants can only reach about 75% agreement, and have difficulties replicating their own previous segmentation.” (Zhang, 2024) Even after the segmentation process, the text continues to challenge modern readers. The Dàodéjīng lacks plurality; past, present, or future tense; pronouns, conjunctions, prepositions; gendered nouns; or punctuation, word spacing, or paragraph indents. Sentences might not have a subject. Verbs lack conjugation. Moreover, Chinese ideograms are sometimes used singly and sometimes combined to make compound terms. Lǎozì may employ a compound term in one case and then use those constituent words separately in other cases. For example, line 71.1 uses the word for “know,” zhī, 知, four times: 知不知上不知知病. This translates to: “know don’t know superior; don’t know, know sick.” Bùzhī, 不知, means “not know.” Otherwise, zhī, 知, should be read as a single word. If you combine the issues of segmentation with the multiple-meanings of words, you can see that no single, absolutely “right” version is possible. Reading the Dàodéjīng in Chinese is like getting a box of ideograms on tiles, and then trying to assemble them as if it was a Scrabble game. This makes translation an interpretive as much as a critical process. Of course, everybody today will use the punctuated versions, but it’s worth remembering that segmentation is arbitrary and once had to be provided by each reader. Nevertheless, gaining the wisdom of the Dàodéjīng is well worth the effort! That's why it's survived for 2,600 years and has spread around the world.

Yeah, and then there's hyperoxia, a life-threatening medical condition caused by too much oxygen. Oxygen toxicity is a well-known phenomenon, symptoms include pleuritic chest pain, coughing, dyspnea, tracheobronchitis and pulmonary edema, to name a few. Whereas there is no amount of qi in the human body that is toxic to the human body. A wonderful taoist rule of thumb: do not define something via what it "is," describe it via what it isn't. Wield that Occam's razor with a firm hand. If too much "something" can do things to the body which no amount of qi can do to the body, that "something" isn't qi. Be it oxygen, chocolate, ice cream, electricity, or what have you. Qi is not interchangeable with anything at all. Understanding qi only starts (sic!) when one stops equating it to something else they happen to be familiar with. There is no something else that "is" qi. Just like there is no other gas that can replace oxygen in the blood, there is no other phenomenon that can replace qi in the taoist paradigm. Oxygen is oxygen. Qi is qi. Every traditionally trained and educated (key word every word in italics) taoist practitioner has heard of "qi leads blood," "qi is the general of blood" in this or that context, whether medical, martial or magical. Blood is what carries oxygen to the organs and systems of the body, but to get oxygen into the blood, one has to have qi to lead and guide it. The general and the army are connected, but most definitely they aren't the same entity. The general leads, the army follows. Qi leads, oxygen follows. Unless one is dealing with a rebellious general starting a coup -- aka "rebellious qi," the term for some pretty nasty health disorders, including mental disorders.

An evil foot? Where? (Looks wildly about in terror).

There is a story they tell in the lineage I follow, about WW2 being caused by literal demons possessing the minds of German leadership, shaping the way they thought and saw reality. I have absolutely no idea if that is true, but it is an interesting story. I can say I have met with people in real life, and recently who told me they were salivating (their words), to start killing certain groups of people. Those comments, that they were hungry to kill other people, makes me wonder if there isn't more to that story.

Scientific materialism is an invasive ideology which tempts you to reduce everything to the banal. Hence qi is oxygen becomes an attractive and unchallenging proposition. Your safe world view remains unchallenged but such safety is actually your prison.

Bonpos with demon denial problems, smug non-dualists, Bud Lite tipplers, torch-wielding villagers -- this thread really has something for everyone. And to think that some mods (bows head in shame) thought it should of been locked.

Yeah, I've probably got it all wrong. Peace

@steve that's interesting but I believe you may have made some category errors. Some representations are anthropomorphic but that does not mean that the thing being represented is 'human' (depending on what human means I suppose). There are entities at all levels of reality but we see them through human eyes and with human minds. Also natural phenomena are not 'unexplainable' but may be 'unexplained' in some cases. I suspect you think that the world populated by non-human entities is a fantasy of primitive thought because it does not equate to your scientific preconceptions. Actually it is the more normal view and truer for that. Given the practice which I know you follow you might want to revisit how you are conceptualising all this. Peace. A.

Been taking turmeric for a couple of months now - I can report some mild positive affects - less muscle and joint pain and more general ease. So I’m carrying on with it. Have been drinking a commercial brand of kombucha called ‘the gutsy captain’ which is produced in Evora near to me and is very pleasant taste. I have no idea about the health claims for kombucha (anyone?).

"Ah folks see it. How could it be invisible?" “The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.” -George Orwell 1984 “There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn't true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true.” ― Soren Kierkegaard It happens when people value their feelings over facts. As Kierkegaard suggested, we are fooled not just by lies, but by our refusal to see what is true. Most people lead with emotion. They decide how they feel first, then find reasons to justify it. Historical examples, like the manipulation of the German public through the Lügenpresse narrative, show how easily people can be trained to ignore reality. When you are told the truth is "disinformation," you stop seeing it entirely. “If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing.” ― Malcolm X I lived through this when a coworker used DARVO (Deny, Attack, and Reverse Victim and Offender) to flip the script on me. After I requested a witness for our meetings, they painted me as the harasser. The lie took hold instantly: HR kicked me out without a hearing, my friends blocked me, and even the woman I was dating disappeared after they spoke with her. This is the power of a charismatic false narrative. It creates a self-reinforcing loop where the crowd becomes certain of a lie, rendering the actual truth invisible to everyone but the person being silenced.

I chose the side of the 'White Lodge ' '' LET IT BE KNOWN that there exists, unknown to the great crowd, a very ancient Order of sages, whose object is the amelioration and spiritual evolution of mankind by means of conquering error and aiding men and women in their efforts of attaining the power of recognising the truth. This Order has existed already in the most remote times and it has manifested its activity secretly and openly in the world under different names and in various forms: it has caused social and political revolutions and proved to be the rock of salvation in times of danger and misfortune. It has always upheld the banner of freedom against tyranny in whatever shape this appeared, whether as clerical or political or social despotism or oppression of any kind. To this “secret order” every wise and spiritually enlightened person belongs by right of his or her nature: because they all, even if they are personally unknown to each other, are one in their purpose and object and they all work under the guidance of the one light of truth. Into this Sacred Society no one can be admitted by another unless he has the power to enter it himself by virtue of his own interior illumination, neither can anyone after he has once entered be expelled unless he should expel himself by becoming unfaithful to his principles and forget again the truths which he has learned by his own experience. ''

Did you add lemon with the tea? Was tea hot, cold, if we're going to be scientific, details matter. On an empty stomach?

I caution pervs and flashers due to the upcoming Chinese year . More fire horse fun ; Aries fire horse was also a singer in a band . I went to watch them play at a pub once . She was out the front singing and had a tambourine ; sing sing sing, she does a little spin around ... two beats on the tambourine , .... sing sing sing , turn around . two beats , ... and so on . The crowd was pressed right up to the stage . Sing sing sing, turn around .... guy reaches up and grabs her arse .... two beats on the tambourine - hard , up either side of guys head .... sing sing sing - didnt miss the beat . We are crossing the road at a pedestrian crossing , car stops half way over the crossing , annoyed people are going around it . She instructs him to move the car back , he doesnt ( she is very tall ) , takes one step up onto his bonnet , walks across it and steps down on other side . Car full of hooligans calls out to the other one ( Sagg fire horse ) one night ; ' Show us yer tits ! ' I am signalling to them 'NO! ... drive away ! '' but they dont . She goes over and ''So, you want to see my tits do you ... and other stuff but somehow has them transfixed . While she is talking she has twisted the car aerial off casually , pulled of their side rear view mirror , bent the wiper ... car full of big guys sitting in thee looking intimidated .... WTF ????

I am interested in Taoism and inner alchemy, so I would like to know about your personal experiences with inner alchemy and whether you have seen any results from it

Ah... phew! Thank goodness I'm not doing any of that.

lets point a finger to the direction of chi flow ( I used to do this thing in aikido where, towards the end and after a standard move or throw I would do it with index finger pointed and then leave it extended and pointing to where the person landed . Observers would be ; '' Wow ! he threw that guy with one finger ! '' ... which of course, I didnt . )

I object. I think you can stand proud. Also it’s a human right to change your mind. I do it all the time.

I’m having a really hard time processing what’s happening. To me, it feels like this is a supernatural level of evil that’s invisible to almost everyone. Even for the people who notice it, the truth feels so dim and distant. It’s like living through a Rick and Morty plot there’s this total disconnect between what should be possible and what I’m actually witnessing. Yes evil is growing rapidly like a cancer.

Ah, it gets complicated. The earliest excavated version of DDJ has a different word in that spot -- 恒, heng. 常 chang, a synonym (with somewhat different shades of meaning) appeared later. Here's how: In modern Chinese, the common meanings of chang 常 are "ordinary," "usual." The word has undergone a number of permutations -- the earliest meaning was "skirt," "undergarment.'" From there social norms and rituals were later inferred -- skirts as a sine qua non element of ceremonial dress. Therefore it became associated with "constancy," "regular propriety," "permanence" as opposed to "fashion trends" if you will. It existed in this context for a while -- not in the DDJ though -- but then 常 was substituted. That's because Heng happened to be the name of Emperor Liu Heng (劉恆), and using the emperor's name was taboo. So, to avoid writing the emperor's personal name character 恒 heng, scribes systematically replaced it with 常 chang in copied texts, including the DDJ. Thus, the version that has been standard for the last 2,000 years uses 常 chang, but with the meaning of 恒 heng. Eternal, constant, unchanging. That chang is therefore interpreted as heng, while it doesn't exactly mean the same thing. Chang is not about things eternal as much as things "accepted," "proper," apropos.

I’m interested in the word for eternal which is chang isn’t it? Does it have other meanings? Or nuanced meanings?

at the bar last night, fire horse on a sign: The bartend-ress brooked no sh*t, and the band played on!

The point Deng Ming-Dao was making and I agree with is, anyone who claims a better understanding of DDJ solely on the merit of being fluent in Chinese, or being a respected Sinologist, or even a lineage taoist, is ultimately in the same boat as a native English speaker dealing with Beowulf, only a bigger one. I.e. knowing the modern version of the language, by itself, or knowing the culture and traditions, or their development through the ages, is still nowhere near enough to make claims about presenting "the correct version." Even the meaning of the very first line, which became a meme of sorts, is the product of interpretations rather than of Laozi's calligraphy brush -- which produced only this opening: "Tao can be told, tao is not eternal." So one has to superimpose the kind of grammar (absent from the original) that will allow to ascribe to Laozi a statement that not only was never made by him but is the opposite of what he actually wrote verbatim. And then just repeat it for two and a half thousand years. That beats Lewis Carrol's "what I tell you three times is true" with a vengeance. But what if we don't do that? What if we take those words for face value instead? Then this line can be read as, say, the opening manifesto of a writer who asserts his right to write about tao. Tao can be told. I, Laozi, can tell you about it. I can tell about it here and now. I am not an eternal being, and so I'm not tackling an eternal subject -- just the here-and-now tao which is what I can tell you about. How's that?

I agree there are many problems with modern translations of the Tao Te Ching, one being the lack of punctuation found in ancient copies. Ironically, you have chosen the very chapter that appears to focus on writing or speaking about the Tao. However, in my humble opinion, we need to look at this factor also in the context of other issues to gain perspective. Can you read Shakespeare? Probably, it's only a few hundred years ago. Chaucer, fourteenth century ie six hundred or so years ago, now it's starting to get problematic. Beowulf, a thousand years back, is where most educated people will have to draw the line. Now, the Tao Te Ching was written over a thousand years before this, more than double the time span. There are no original copies available. The type of language is completely different to our modern English language, which is phonetic; this was closer to hieroglyphics, a pictographic language. In the oldest known version we have available, hidden in a tomb in 300 BC, there is no 'chapter one'. I am guessing chapter one is a kind of caveat or editor's preface added later on and saying, "Don't believe everything you read."

Puts me in the mind of stories I've heard about WW1, WW2, truces made between Russian and German soldiers, so they could focus on the wolves that were devouring them. Speaking of were, there is a story about Russians entering werebear mountain in Finland. Depends on perspective, I'd say, if the wolves and bears were the good guys or not. As a side note if you have ever been to my Random Philosophy thread in my ppd, you already know, Soren has stopped me in my tracks more than once.

Coolest thing I read all day.

Do you think there is rampant evil afoot in our world?

I would say "couple months" is a very long time for "some mild positive" effects. It's quite likely that turmeric is doing (almost) nothing at all or is even harming you and you're simply experiencing slow natural healing, not positive effect of the herb. Generally don't listen to people who are saying things like "turmeric is good for inflammation". Such people are incompetent and dangerous to others (and even to themselves). Turmeric is a warm herb and it can be harmful for inflammation if the inflammation has hot nature. It can be beneficial for inflammation if the cause is blood stagnation or Qi stagnation, wind, cold, damp. But it's biggest specialty is blood stagnation. Unfortunately, very often somebody has good effects with a certain herb in a specific situation to which the herb is suited, but starts to recommend the herb for a wide category like "inflammation" or "joint pain" - which includes situations to which the herb is NOT suited! Could you say which joints and muscles are affected? Are the joints swollen, or maybe there is redness around them? Do they feel hot or cold? Are the joints stiff? (Maybe just stiff in the morning?) Or maybe the limb feels bit numb? Does the pain increase or decrease in response to warmth or cold? Or maybe in reaction to wet, rainy weather? Does the pain feel heavy or does it feel sharp, like stabbing with a sharp needle or knife? Is the pain constant or maybe pulsating or changing, "jumping" from one joint to another? Are you as the whole person more sensitive to hot or cold? (Which you find more tiring and unpleasant.)

tiny deer takes on Rhino and comes out ahead! maybe its just play time for the Rhino...

Hmmm ... guacamole is good with a bit of beer added .... but dont add a spoonful of guac to your glass of beer .... that would indeed become 'evil' . And only recommended for an 'Aussie chunder contest ' ( look it up if you are game )

I thought about posting this on @Haribol thread Spiritual Warfare, There is more to it than choosing a side, right?

Yes ... but you 'seek the light ' .

and Jesus saying the following about the humans who crucified him, "Forgive them Father they know not what they do". But he was not so kind when speaking to or about demonic beings in Revelations and elsewhere. Is that something some well meaning Christian's don't understand and thus also try to apply forgiveness to demonic forces?

what? i like Bud light but Modelo more.

well there is the case of having kind thoughts while somebody may be killing you, like Mahatma Gandhi had. (a rare case)

Beer drinking is a mostly peaceable activity -- as long as nobody brings Bud Light.

I'm no Buddhist, isn't there a quote along the lines of "With our thoughts we make our world" ?

It´s not the tea, it´s the tea drinker.

Think kind thoughts.

But I tried drinking tea to stop the war .... didnt work .

here is 'the thing' though : although I agree with you in nearly all cases , I have found an example where a 'sage or mystic ' ( the term is a complex name which translates as ' visionary artist ' ) did bring about laws and society . So far this is the only case I have found where a nationwide sweeping change came about that changed society and made law but not due to invasion, conquest , or natural or man made disaster . however this may because these people did not have ' rulers of the realm' ? In any case , you seem to be right , one exception doesnt really disrupt the genera; 'trend' ... however it does make this exception outstanding in its own right . ( research is ongoing... my research,, that is ) https://www.ifrao.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/31-1-Doring.pdf

Okay then ... what does your link say ; '' The Planes of Existence represents one of the most fascinating and profound aspects of metaphysical thought across numerous spiritual traditions .... '' geeze , I never got past the first sentence ! '' according to this link cant exist without mind expereince ; '' These five forms of gross matter and the aforesaid fifteen attributes, together with Manas, Mind, sense consciousness; Buddhi, discriminative Intelligence; Chitta, the Heart or power of feeling; and Ahamkara, the Ego, constitute the twenty-four basic principles of creation.

Qinna is normally called grappling or joint locking techniques. They are not Taichi original methods like the 13 stances, but rather imported into it. Qinna exists in all styles of Taichi and in other Chinese martial arts and outside China. So I suppose the good execution of Qinna could be independent from Taichi.

Then the devil played another trick; convincing the the world there was only one devil. Ah folks see it. How could it be invisible? It's been broadcasted non-stop to the point, folks have become desensitized to it. "Rocking the boat" causes collateral damage as well. It isn't that folks are scared and weak, it is a sobering situation, and needs addressed in a way not rushed, which plays into the elites hands. Oh, shit, did I equate elites with evil?! Not necessarily, although,,, Don't hold your breath on everyone uniting as one. There are small groups that have stated objectives of holding accountable the ones who are dangled by the strings. The ones dangling and tugged by those strings are the truly weak. These intrigues are often inside jobs and border on the political fringes What usually happens in times like these, when the curtain has been drawn open and evil takes off its mask, is the world is dragged into major war. The 4th generation theory Because it is held by the elites that after a big war, folks can be controlled for three generations. Civil wars prevent revolution. Evil has carefully constructed presumably safe haven hideouts to weather the coming storm and the rest of us face horrendous odds of merely surviving. Let alone, feel good about it. There was a mural I was shown in 1978, in an air force hardened bunker,9 forecasting today's landscape and the coming aftermath; there was a caption: "The living will envy the dead" Apologies everyone for posting this. And, sometimes perhaps, predictive murals get it wrong. There is always hope. There are already places where there is no room for the faint of heart. Perhaps coming soon to a location near you. So, there could be some facsimile of a grand uprising. They do occur, rarely. Civil wars, mixed with the larger war mostly. Every now and then a true revolution. My approach is on the side of choosing to be Meek. Not to be confused with weak. A holistic grass roots effort, emphasizing kindness and service to the poor and downtrodden.i deliver meals to disabled seniors it is a little thing. But enough little things by those on the other side of the spectrum than the elite, do add up.

You are wasting your time with "fairy tales." Those who follow this path are bound by their egos, and the "ego" is one of the biggest hurdles of this path. The key to successful practice is to loosen up the entire body, then you'll access EVERYTHING contained within yourself. Ba Gua Zhang plus foundation work (grounding exercises) did it for me. Expect a lot of hard, consistent and disciplined work though. Finally, you'll need to find a competent real life teacher, not books and online courses. You won't go far if you don't. Good luck.

Thread locked because of tiresome drivel. FoC may reopen if there is a reason to. A.

I thought it may be your responsibility to strengthen your self control.

Another factor is that those "serious things" are often quite secretive, sometimes for good reason, perhaps sometimes not. I know that I feel uncomfortable sharing things my teacher asked us to keep to ourselves, be that personal experiences and insights from practice, specific information, or practical instruction. In part this is because certain information can be useless, misinterpreted, or even harmful when pursued before the student is prepared. Not saying a focused and well--moderated neidan forum would necessarily be a bad idea but I do think there will be challenges.