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They aren't proto-Indo-Europeans. Romans in China have zero relevance to the Yijing. It seems you've had a misunderstanding.

Thanks for the reply, but ironically I've already tried that very same video (and others like it). Youtube is filled to the brim with qi sensation videos like this one with slight differences, but they all pretty much use the whole "move your palms towards and away from eachother" thing. IDK, maybe my standards are just too high/strict and I'm expecting too much, but with a lot of these exercises the sensations you feel are things I've already felt under normal circumstances and they don't really feel "distinct enough" to me that they would warrant a different classification as "chi energy". There was one video that was a bit different (and I'd say the most significant one I've tested) by Lee Holden, but I think that was because the actions in it were directly stimulating nerves in your hand and that's why you get the noticeable tingling sensation in your palms (hitting your finger nails against eachother rapidly for a certain duration, you'll see it in the video): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1A5OrXDlkI A lot of these exercises just looks like the placebo effect to me (doesn't seem like "the real deal", like something essential is missing). Like the most common exercise where you are told to rub your palms together for a while and then move them towards and away from eachother. A lot of people will feel warmth on their palms and exclaim they felt chi, but you literally just rubbed your palms together, which generates heat, so of course you'll feel warmth, especially when you are moving your palms against the cooler air which allows you to more easily feel the temperature difference, and you are now hyper focused on your palms so that makes it even easier. I'm looking for something much more distinct than those things, something like what @-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ- described - "Felt like a cool menthol heat moving around my body." Like that experience, I'm also looking for an experience that is inexplicable by anything else (I can't come up with any rationalization other than - "that was qi energy, it definitely worked"). This is why I asked the questions I asked, and it's why I'm looking for a "complete practice" that is well known, as it's more likely to yield those kinds of results (as these things are passed down and refined through generations). I think when you begin to train something with a mindset that it "undeniably works" rather than "that was interesting but it could be explained by other things", you'll take it more seriously. I want to weed out all doubt, and that's why I'm looking for a specific kind of practice.

Ahem. Mark Foote bridges ancient wisdom and modern science in this remarkable exploration of seated meditation. Drawing on Gautama Buddha's original teachings, Zen masters from Dogen to Shunryu Suzuki, and contemporary research in biomechanics and neuroscience, Foote reveals how natural, automatic movement in the body emerges when we surrender volition and allow consciousness to find its own place. For practitioners seeking to understand the relationship between body and mind in meditation, A Natural Mindfulness is an invaluable guide.

I'm lucky enough to know someone with the DVD. Looks like the training session is around an hour so I'll just do it after work each day instead of trying to squeeze in a session in the morning before work. Should this be done on a completely empty stomach (like wait X amount of hours after eating or drinking before training) and should I avoid eating and drinking for any amount of time after a training session? If this works, I'll just go all in and buy the 5 volume combo. As for that other guy in the thread, I'm just going to ignore him. If he wanted to help he'd just tell me what I was ignorant about and enlighten me (true definition of qi, book I could start training with etc). To me It's like that quote - "A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush". He's telling me to throw away the bird I already have in my hand without first giving me the method to catch the two birds in the bush.

That is interesting. Although one could question the idea of deliberate rather than inspired belief, to the extent that the person doing the operation must struggle to convince themself that they really believe something they have deliberately set up. However you could argue that all belief is like this, it is an act of will, a choice to believe. That this initial belief may be reinforced by pragmatic testing such that, if the results work for you, your confidence and thus belief strengthens as you go. Agreed. I can see belief shaping reality and as I suggested above perhaps this is what we always do (?) I think that knowledge is hermeneutical in that it is about how we interpret reality to ourselves. So that two things may operate together. If we practice trial and error pragmatism then faith and confidence come from a kind of higher empiricism. When I was young I was kind of obsessed with this idea … that it must work… be effective and not just philosophical or religious. But I think also that for instance if there is a HGA then this must operate from the beginning. In other words a higher power guides your hand even if you know it not. So for high magic it is more like revealing the truth rather than manufacturing it. You may think you are inventing beliefs without being fully conscious of what it is that attracts you to them in the first place if you see what I mean.

Yes . We could focus on this part of the definition ; '' the belief that belief itself is a tool to manipulate reality and that one can shift beliefs as needed to achieve goals. ' So, I assume , the ritual system and 'paraphernalia ' of magick is geared towards cultural belief ( hence different types of magick ; from modern western, to 'Javanese' to Buddhist , etc . ) and relies on a stong 'set' in the psyche - which is why a lot of older western magick is in the 'theater ' of Christianity (or its opposite , ie, 'demon based ' or 'sourced' ) . That is , in this situation , it is firmly entrenched in the psyche and the belief system . So can ( and how can one ) change or ;shift' belief systems so as to have them so firmly entrenched in the psyche that thay have the same 'impact ' . I doubt this part . However , the issue of belief systems 'manipulating ' realty seems better explained by 'Daimonic Reality Theory' ( ex Harpur ) seems more realistic . I 'operate' sort of like that , but my belief systems only 'validly ' changed ( ie, changed to a deep enough influence that they did 'manipulate' reality , after evidence accretion - ie . if you try something and get the same result many times , then its easier for the belief to become entrenched in the psyche to be effective . Also it broaches the whole idea of inner Vs outer influence . What are your thoughts on that ?

Perfect! Curious to see how you feel Not completely empty, but also not directly after eating. Can wait half an hour after eating before practicing, or more if you still feel full. You can eat and drink immediately after practice if you like, it’s just it might stop the nice feeling you get after practice.

according to your link .... the ultimate nature of reality requires a facebook registration and log in

Perhaps this might paint the full picture from the Qigong practice in the above post. One might feel the chi in the body and continuously releasing the body energy for 6 minutes without exhaustion.

Old time lurker here. I used to be around in here, but wen't away and learned a lot, now I'm back tho and very grateful for all the posts I read back then which pointed me to the curriculums I have since studied. My life is very different now, in a good way and became a Yoga and Qigong instructor since too. I made a Calendar with 24 Meditations And a long list of meditational techniques that goes along with it for further education. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1y5C3Q80ADjPdmiWvRvukQFaU1yTne4JQsdZbVMsp4sU/edit?usp=drivesdk

Perhaps you are looking for something like this!

https://www.transfernow.net/dl/202512031bMZwuRX

Shoot. Thanks for letting me know. Here goes https://docs.google.com/document/d/1y5C3Q80ADjPdmiWvRvukQFaU1yTne4JQsdZbVMsp4sU/edit?usp=drivesdk

What is the motive? Is there an attachment to the idea of something "inexplicable"? There is that saying along the lines of being careful of what you wish for...(and that which could be unexpected)

Half of uzbekistanis you've met have green eyes? But the demographic for green eyes there is only 5%. https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/countries-with-the-most-green-eyes The story of a roman legion settling in china is an old tale. Some sources claim european DNA is present there and has been resident in the area since the time of Marcus Crassus around 50'ish BC. In which case would that not be indo european influence?

Not really. Green eyes was common in central asia at the time, and saka (central asian) interaction with ancient China is well-documented. Even now, half of the Uzbekistanis I've met have green eyes. The discussion diverged into whether there was 'proto-Indo-European' influence on the ancient Chinese yijing. Romans have nothing to do with the writing of the Yijing and aren't proto-Indo-Europeans.

Thanks for sparing me ... if I remember rightly, last time it was very ........ unEgyptian . I'll leave this one for our resident Indiana Jones of Egyptology

yes, to an extent , but the reference to 'magick ' and 'Daimonic Reality ' supposes something ..... 'against common consensual reality ' , ie we make happen or watch / observe something , we dont normally do , that has 'limited consensual reality ' ... and example of that is many of us don not 'believe in UFOs (until recently ) but small groups (limited consensual reality ) affirm they have seen them and seen the same thing as each other was seeing . Which is branch of Magick Crowley touted ; 'Scientific Illuminism ' .... ' The method of science with the aim of religion ' . hence the magical diary and record where experiments , rituals, meditations, etc should be written up , pretty much like a science experiment ( Aim , Equipment , processes , record of event ( the 'working itself ' and what might have occurred during and then any results as time goes on , and over time to collate and compare the record ) . '' Let success be thy proof '' Oh ... there is ! I believe it . And there from the beginning ( most related ritual is about knowing that and having converse with it , evoking , yes but not 'evoking it into existence ' / 'creating it ' . It seems to much a part of too many different cultures , in one way or another . Yes. A lot of magick is an 'unveiling ' and it should ( according to the 'Old Boy ' ) have such elements of Buddhist and Hindu realizations about the nature of mind . By the way ... the proceeds and resultant papers of the above 'Scientific Illuminism ' approach and research ( and results ) or just papers or philosophies gleaned from the process (as well as more intellectual works ) get collated and shared in 'The Collage of Hermetic Philosopher ' - on examining a lot of the work and attempting to answer the question .... is it internal projection or external forces , the official pronouncement on that was ( back then ) ' .... we are not yet ready to say , one or the other ' Thats because ( I reckon , as in many cases ) its a bit of both .

I'm not sure that it is a matter of finding the right system per se, but finding the right teacher for you (whoever you are, not necessarily OP). What works for some doesn't always work for others. A lot of people tend to agree that wuji is a great starting point along with some other moving exercise. Of course, developing a proper wuji posture can take a while. Having said that, I think the qi sensations arise automatically through the coming together of two elements: open attention and a relaxed body. I would say at first, the sensations can be very light-- tingling, heat, coolness, lightness, heaviness. Over time, the sensations may become quite defined with specific lines, points, and structures. For me, a lot of qi-type stuff happened on its own during Buddhist type retreats. But it doesn't necessarily become "undeniable" for some period of time. If I had to suppose, most people could likely develop initial, light qi sensations by placing their attention in their resting, unmoving hand in a relaxed way after the sun goes down. It seems like it can be dismissed, but the sensations tend to develop over a long period of time into something more concrete that can actually have measurable effects. As a variation, here is another common exercise:

Fresh out of twice doing the long form then I felt like moving through time. I was doing the form in my living room and I could sense my body lying on the sofa behind me. When resting I usually lie down on the sofa. I am not sure how to interpret this? 😁 So I did the form again, very slow and in the last move where the hands move down in front of you it was as if seeing life as a movie being winded back and I was there in a big space. How have you been experiencing FP lately?

Is there any chance we can discuss chaos magic? Does anyone have anything intelligent to say about it?

Maybe it’s a generational thing - I was aware of chaos theory for at least a decade before Jurassic park.

I agree.

Assuming the Bible to be Jewish in origin - here is the JPS translation When the Most High gave to the nations When He separated the children of men, He set the borders of the peoples According to the number of the children of Israel. 9For the portion of the LORD is His people, Jacob the lot of His inheritance. https://biblehub.com/jps/deuteronomy/32.htm So the Lord inherited only the people of Jacob and apparently jealously kept his few humans The term "Most High" derives from the Sumerian "Ilu" that means both tall and god The gods did not stop growing as they aged so the most senior god was the tallest - the most high

Is this not evidence of european influence on chinese culture?