Your Experience of Standing Meditation

[Creation]

@Nuralshamal, what position are you standing in?

[Kojiro]

@NuralshamalI also remember I felt pain everywhere while doing ZZ, i remember well! specially in my calves, that was unbearable (the right calf more than the left). The calves were very sore and painful, no matter how much i stretched them, and i stretched them a lot. The more I did ZZ the more pain I felt there, I guess that was one of the reason I had to stop.

[Nuralshamal]

12 hours ago, Creation said:

@Nuralshamal, what position are you standing in?

Hey @Creation,

My current 100 day cycle of standing is in the "pillar" or "post" position, zhang zhuang, where the arms are held out in front of the chest.
 

[Nuralshamal]

37 minutes ago, Kojiro said:

@NuralshamalI also remember I felt pain everywhere while doing ZZ, i remember well! specially in my calves, that was unbearable (the right calf more than the left). The calves were very sore and painful, no matter how much i stretched them, and i stretched them a lot. The more I did ZZ the more pain I felt there, I guess that was one of the reason I had to stop.

I feel you @Kojiro!

It's super interesting to hear from different people how their body responded to ZZ.

For me it was the shoulders, it was 1 month of hell, and suddenly my hip "let go", and everything fell into place.

I had my wife try it the other day, because I told her how it was now starting to help my body, and for her it was the calves, knees and hips really paining.

I asked her "what about your shoulders?" "oh, nothing, it's fine". I was shocked, because I had just been through 30 days of hell :'D

So we're all different and unique  

[Nuralshamal]

On 10.12.2023 at 6:28 PM, dwai said:

I've been practicing standing as part of my Tai chi practice for a good part for about 23 years now. Standing has many benefits - it helps us learn how to sink the qi down to the dantien, it helps us release physical tensions and grounds the nervous system. 

One should build up standing over a period of time - little by little, 5-10 min increments until you can stand for extended periods of time. When I visit my master, we do daoist circle meditation where several of us stand in a circle and meditate, with sifu pumping energy into the circle. After a while, my feet feel like they've been water - the yin qi rises up and the yang qi sinks down - merges in the lower dantien.

 

One more thing to beware of is, after standing, always do some moving meditation to recirculate the energy that is built up, otherwise the kidneys can get damaged. 

Hey @dwai,

Thanks for sharing!

Standing & Moving
I think it's a super interesting information about moving meditation combined with standing. I do remember thinking about how these two should balance each other out.

My sexual qigong and lovemaking teacher actually had some hip and shoulder problems (he was also very elderly), and I just remember I felt that it was due to too much and too long standing, without dynamic exercises. I saw him standing one day, and it just seemed his body got more "locked up" physically, even though he was connecting to universal qi.

I feel it too myself, that if I don't maintain normal dynamic exercise after long standing, I could see how my body would also slowly become more stiff in the hips and knees.

Qi Circle
I got curious about the qi circle! Sounds very interesting.

Which lineage and which sifu practice the standing qi circle method you mentioned?

I do believe that cultivators can do great things together if they combine their energy, however these synergistic methods are not that often taught or used openly from what I've seen so far.

For partnered methods I've seen back-to-back meditation as well as of course sexual methods between a man and a woman, and I'm blown away at how the qi synergistically affects each other so powerfully. 

The other method I've tried is group talisman healing, where 5 healers surround the patient, each standing in a direction: North, East, South, West & Center, and then they each channel and transmit the healing talisman and energy of their particular direction to the patient.

This of course means that each healer needs to have sucessfully completed a 49 day cycle with that talisman in order to have its healing power.

Look forward to hear from you again, all the best!

[Kojiro]

3 hours ago, Nuralshamal said:

I feel you @Kojiro!

It's super interesting to hear from different people how their body responded to ZZ.

For me it was the shoulders, it was 1 month of hell, and suddenly my hip "let go", and everything fell into place.

I had my wife try it the other day, because I told her how it was now starting to help my body, and for her it was the calves, knees and hips really paining.

I asked her "what about your shoulders?" "oh, nothing, it's fine". I was shocked, because I had just been through 30 days of hell :'D

So we're all different and unique  

don't get me wrong, shoulders also pained quite hard. It is just that the calves were a real problem for me. Shoulder pain probably came next.

[Maddie]

You're experience with standing meditation:

 

1. First thirty seconds: I got this, no big deal.

 

2. Two to five minutes: Ok this isn't fun anymore I don't like this.

 

3. Five to eight minutes: I hate this and I hate life, why was I even born.

 

4. Ten minutes later: I'm sitting on my couch having an existential crisis wondering what the point of life even is eating ice cream.

[dwai]

3 hours ago, Nuralshamal said:

I got curious about the qi circle! Sounds very interesting.

Which lineage and which sifu practice the standing qi circle method you mentioned?

I do believe that cultivators can do great things together if they combine their energy, however these synergistic methods are not that often taught or used openly from what I've seen so far.

I practice Temple style Tai Chi which is a Daoist system - it focuses heavily on neigong/dagong.

The circle meditation has a few variations; at the most basic level, it involves a group of up to 8 people standing in a circle and building up a vortex of energy in the center of the circle - think of each member connecting to the vortex/pillar of energy with their 3 dantiens. With our collective intent, we make the vortex stronger and it will engulf us and expand into the space surrounding us. It helps boost the practitioners - acting like an amplifier. 

 

[Nuralshamal]

@dwai super cool, thanks for sharing

[Taoist Texts]

6 hours ago, Nuralshamal said:

My sexual qigong and lovemaking teacher actually had some hip and shoulder problems (he was also very elderly)

so at that age he was capable of lovemaking? thats amazing! my hat off to him!

[Nuralshamal]

37 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

so at that age he was capable of lovemaking? thats amazing! my hat off to him!

Haha, yes, true, he was maybe even more horny than me, even though he was 70-80 years old. 

We sat on a bench waiting to be picked up after a teaching session. It was outside, in a park/playground area.

I talked and asked him about qigong and meditation, how to cultivate energy to achieve inner peace and connection with the universe. He was closely studying and then commenting on how juicy and sexy the ass of one of the hispanic moms in the park was :'D and what he would do to her.

So, all the lovemaking and sexual qigong does work for maintaining sexual function into old age

About a year later, when he blew his hip out and had to be in a wheelchair for about a month, he had to stick to  just the women riding him :'D 

But he came back strong after! Haha 

[Maddie]

Hopefully this question doesn't sound stupid on this sight, BUT I keep hearing a lot of talk about Inner Alchemy and such. The question I have is:

 

1. What is the purpose?

 

2. What does it do?

 

3. How does one go about it?

 

4. Why would one want to do this in the first place?

[Maddie]

8 minutes ago, Nuralshamal said:

Haha, yes, true, he was maybe even more horny than me, even though he was 70-80 years old. 

We sat on a bench waiting to be picked up after a teaching session. It was outside, in a park/playground area.

I talked and asked him about qigong and meditation, how to cultivate energy to achieve inner peace and connection with the universe. He was closely studying and then commenting on how juicy and sexy the ass of one of the hispanic moms in the park was :'D and what he would do to her.

So, all the lovemaking and sexual qigong does work for maintaining sexual function into old age

About a year later, when he blew his hip out and had to be in a wheelchair for about a month, he had to stick to  just the women riding him :'D 

But he came back strong after! Haha 

 

To me as a Buddhist for many years I find that the concept of having a large amount of sexual desire as an accomplishment interesting primarily for the reason that in Buddhism letting go of desire is seen as an accomplishment. Interesting difference in perspective. 

[Nuralshamal]

Hey @Maddie

Let me answer in 2 parts:
1) Alchemy
2) Desire

1) Alchemy
It's a big subject with a large variety of opinions. I've gotten into a lot of trouble and attacks when I've shared my opinions here on this forum before. But this is my thread now and you asked a question, so let me try to give some simple answers.
 

1. What is the purpose of alchemy?
The end goal is Ren-Tien-He-Yi - man becomes one with the universe. Nowadays we would say "person becomes one with the universe"  

 

2. What does it do?
It's a stepwise, progressive approach of firstly bringing harmony on the physical level (health of the body), then the energetic and emotional level, and lastly the mental level. When these three are cultivated into a harmonious states, this reveals the spiritual state of affairs, a conscious, felt and experiential oneness with the universe while we go about our daily business.
 

3. How does one go about it?
The genius of true, authentic daoist lineage practice is that all steps are fully contained in every single step. That means just one correct and authentic form can take you all the way, given that you keep at it

 

4. Why would one want to do this in the first place?
What is the goal of life?

We each need to feel/find that for ourselves, what we feel to be the right way to spend this precious time on Planet Earth.

Some feel driven by music, some by money, popularity, or maybe having a family. We're all different.

Daoism said (in a simplified manner) "do all that you want, just have the daily "side-project" of attaining cosmic oneness all the way". 

Desire
I agree with you!

I have had to regulate my sexual qigong quite a lot, because too much sexual desire can simply take over one's life too much. Honestly, that's what I've felt happened to many of the sexual qigong teachers.

For me, I see it as a way to stay strong and healthy until death. It's simply a supplement to my health regimen.

I think the former gentleman who commended my elderly teacher talked about practical sexual function in old age, more than the desire itself.

The desire is in the mind, whereas sexual function is of the body.

E.g. the physical capacity to eat and digest food in old age is commendable, whereas mentally craving food (more than you need for health) is something in the mind.

So I would suggest a differentiation between increasing or lessening desire, and then having or not having a particular physical function. 

Of course mind and body is related that's why we're here on this forum, but simply for added clarity in this particular matter

All the best!

[Creation]

14 hours ago, Nuralshamal said:

I saw him standing one day, and it just seemed his body got more "locked up" physically, even though he was connecting to universal qi.

The person I learn from says this happens to people who do lots of standing over many years, but don't train the correct quality (song) in the body. They just get really good at holding the body rigid for a long time.

[Creation]

7 hours ago, Maddie said:

To me as a Buddhist for many years I find that the concept of having a large amount of sexual desire as an accomplishment interesting primarily for the reason that in Buddhism letting go of desire is seen as an accomplishment. Interesting difference in perspective. 

Indeed. There are further distinctions to be made as well. Having more vibrancy in the body, more jing and qi, which could then be used to fuel sexual activity but doesn't have to be, as a positive result of practice can (and imo should) be distinguished from actually feeling more desire in the mind. I think even a Buddhist could see the former as positive: it is virya, one of the enlightenment factors. More desire in the mind is a different story.

 

EDIT I see Nuralshamal already made this same point.

Edited December 13, 2023 by Creation

[Sahaja]

6 hours ago, Maddie said:

Hopefully this question doesn't sound stupid on this sight, BUT I keep hearing a lot of talk about Inner Alchemy and such. The question I have is:

 

1. What is the purpose?

 

2. What does it do?

 

3. How does one go about it?

 

4. Why would one want to do this in the first place?

1 stillness, calm abiding, emptiness

2. Uses energetic matrix (Jing, chi, shen) behind the various layers of the body, to refine and purify these layers in progression  -  physical, emotional, mental and causal 

3 first step is the foundations  - build Dan tian, build chi, open channels , circulate qi, develop stability of awareness then move into more meditative type practices in next stages  (Jing to chi, chi to shen, shen to emptiness) stages takes many, many years. First step- opening up and changing the body - takes about 3 to 5 years. 

4. The foundations piece I think would be immensely helpful to  an acupuncturist. I think the foundations piece would also be quite supportive of a Buddhist meditation practice.
 

there are different approaches to it. 

 

[Master Logray]

23 hours ago, Maddie said:

4. Why would one want to do this in the first place?

 

 

The majority are for health reasons, possibly more than for longevity.   Some other do it for curiosity or they are associated with cultivators all along. 

 

@Nuralshamal    Earl Grey and Freeform are standing for many hours a day.  A pity they are no longer here.   I only stand for short duration, but from time to time.   There is no better way to align your body. 

[Vajra Fist]

16 hours ago, Sahaja said:

I think the foundations piece would also be quite supportive of a Buddhist meditation practice.

 

Indeed, Harada Roshi introduced standing practice for Rinzai Zen monks at Sogen-ji.

[Nintendao]

Part of my daily standing exercise includes “standing like a tree trunk" or "holding the beach ball" type of "movement in stillness." I don't usually hold it for very long, five to ten minutes at the end of a larger sequence of huffing and puffing and wiggling about. Rarely staying perfectly still, there is a subtle swaying and settling around, as I like to continuously review and adjust for the Nine Pearls, Four Principles, and Three Harmonies, as in Taijiquan.

 

The Nine Alignments:

1. Feet Pace Earth a.k.a Suction Cup Soles
2. Empty Spirit, Summit Strong a.k.a Suspend From Crown
3. Subtle Shoulders, Weighted Elbows
4. Surround Chest, Expand Back
5. Seated Wrists, Tall Fingers
6. Sink Chi to Dantian
7. Untying Belts, Loosen Corset
8. Tailbone Centered and Upright
9. Rounded Kua, Bent Knees

 

Edited January 16 by Nintendao

[Kojiro]

2 hours ago, Master Logray said:

 

 

The majority are for health reasons, possibly more than for longevity.   Some other do it for curiosity or they are associated with cultivators all along. 

 

@Nuralshamal    Earl Grey and Freeform are standing for many hours a day.  A pity they are no longer here.   I only stand for short duration, but from time to time.   There is no better way to align your body. 

it is a pity they are no longer here after all these years. I didn't even know @freeform was no longer participating. Wonder why he left.

 

And what about @Earl Grey? he was a veteran among us, he could explain us many things about ZZ. Hope he does some day

[Kojiro]

2 hours ago, Master Logray said:

 

 

The majority are for health reasons, possibly more than for longevity.   Some other do it for curiosity or they are associated with cultivators all along. 

 

@Nuralshamal    Earl Grey and Freeform are standing for many hours a day.  A pity they are no longer here.   I only stand for short duration, but from time to time.   There is no better way to align your body. 

@Starjumperwas also good at it

[Nuralshamal]

Thanks everyone for sharing your experiences

Recap on my own standing process
It's been over a week since I started this thread. As mentioned I'm doing 100 days of standing. First 30 days were hell, then there was a physical shift - my hips relaxed, my whole body aligned, and I could stand effortlessly and painfree for 60 minutes with no issues.

When this shift happened, my body "faded into the background"" of my awareness, so now I could focus on just meditating. I was meditating all along, but the physical pain had a disturbing effect.

The meditation in the standing I'm doing is a visualisation: 7 color pillar (like a rainbow).

You visualise holding onto a rainbow colored pillar made of light, which extends down into the Earth and up into Heaven (the universe).

Update on my own 100 days of standing
Suddenly one day, I really felt as if the pillar was there. Then after a while, there was a feeling of energy exchange between my personal qi field and the qi field of the pillar.

I felt energy circulate between my arms and heart and the pillar, as well as up and down my legs to the heart and back to the pillar.

This continued for some days.

Suddenly one day, instead of this general feeling of energy circulation in my body, it became very detailed. I suddenly felt the energy going into one particular meridian at a time, slowly going in and out of it (between the meridian and the pillar), cleaning it, until it reached the organ of the merdian. Then it would work on the organ. And finally, when the meridian and organs was cleaned, healed and balanced, it would go to the next meridian.

This was extremely interesting, as I clearly felt/saw each merdian and organ cleaned, as well as what had been blocking it. I was quite surprised that the vast majority of the blockages were simply formed due to impaired circulation. Then slowly over time, more and more "junk" would simply accumulate in that meridian.

Health Realisations Brought About by Standing
I had a period of about 3 years where I was highly inactive, because I got 2 herniated discs in my lower spine, I couldn't move as I used to. This period was actually what got me into qigong, in hope of healing myself.

But in those 3 years, the stagnation started, and in spite of me getting into daily qigong towards the end of those 3 years, still to this day, a lot of that stagnation was still there (albeit of course much better compared to if I had done no qigong I would imagine).

That was the physical layer of the body, it had become blocked due to physical causes, e.g. insufficient circulation.

The qi layer of the body was packed full of "foreign qi", simply meaning when you hang out with people, you talk etc, you exchange energies. For some reason, this can also get stuck in your system. This was actually the most problematic, it took several days for it to clear out: I even saw some events from my teenage years where the energy was still stuck.

Lastly came the spiritual layer, which was the quickest to clear, but it was quite interesting to see the things that "hurt your spirit", or at least what had hurt my spirit. It's mostly people who feel strong negative emotions towards you for some reason, somewhat similar to the "evil eye", but just done spiritually.

There were also some lifestyle and herb choice realisations, because I saw/felt the individual problems of each organ and meridian one by one. Some had cold, some had dampness, some had heat, some were deficient, some were stagnated etc.

Now it's like this process is complete, so now each day when I stand and finally "connect" to the 7 color pillar, the cleaning of everything happens in a few minutes, all at once. It's not detailed like before.

Now it feels like I'm simply meditating - just resting in a state of peace and stillness.

I'm very, very positively surprised by the power of standing so far, I never imagined any of this was even possible! 

Conclusion on this post
It all just happens by itself with no volition or intention of my own. Firstly the "settling into" the proper physical position could only happen with time, I couldn't do it by myself. It was just suddenly one day my hips relaxed and let go, then they "fell" into position by themselves.

Similarly with this whole healing process: I'm just meditating on holding a pillar of light, then suddenly the energy circulation starts happening by itself.

And now, after almost a week of this healing process, now it just feels like meditation - abiding in peaceful stillness.

Very interesting indeed!

[snowymountains]

On 12/13/2023 at 12:50 AM, Sahaja said:

1 stillness, calm abiding, emptiness

2. Uses energetic matrix (Jing, chi, shen) behind the various layers of the body, to refine and purify these layers in progression  -  physical, emotional, mental and causal 

3 first step is the foundations  - build Dan tian, build chi, open channels , circulate qi, develop stability of awareness then move into more meditative type practices in next stages  (Jing to chi, chi to shen, shen to emptiness) stages takes many, many years. First step- opening up and changing the body - takes about 3 to 5 years. 

4. The foundations piece I think would be immensely helpful to  an acupuncturist. I think the foundations piece would also be quite supportive of a Buddhist meditation practice.
 

there are different approaches to it. 

 

 

1. How does the calm abiding part differ to other Samatha traditions ? Re emptiness: empty of what, empty of self ? similarly to how Mahayana interprets emptiness ( and Theravada actually ) ? How is emptiness realised in Alchemy?

 

2. Is this done as a 4-stage meditation in one go, as a set of meditative practices to be done is a week, how does this differ to practicing boxed breathing, the 4 imeasurables, samatha and insight ( or even open awareness ) ?

 

3. Here I have to say the terminology is beyond my minimal knowledge of Daoist concepts. Nonetheless, I'll give it a go,

 

"build Dan tian, build chi" -- the closest thing I've seen to this is Zazen meditation on breath, where the awareness point is in the Hara/Dantien, is this the practice you refer to ?

 

"open channels" - is this done with somatic exercises?

 

"circulate qi" - is this done with somatic exercises?

 

"develop stability of awareness" this to me seems not in sequence to the above, e.g. Theravada monks who enter Jhana states do not work with the Dantien and have no concept of energy that they work with. Does it need to be at the end of the sequence?

 

Regarding the transformations you mentioned (Jing to chi, chi to shen, shen to emptiness) is there a textual reference which contains the full technique, or at least a text which translates the textual reference and provides an interpretation that's sufficient for the full technique ?

 

Also, in what context transforming (anything) to emptiness, if emptiness is to be interpreted as emptiness of self, it's only something that can be realised and there's a whole set of meditative techniques that assist to experience that - Is the Daoist view different on this?

[johndoe2012]

On 1/13/2024 at 2:52 PM, snowymountains said:

Regarding the transformations you mentioned (Jing to chi, chi to shen, shen to emptiness) is there a textual reference which contains the full technique, or at least a text which translates the textual reference and provides an interpretation that's sufficient for the full technique ?

 

See https://www.amazon.com/Internal-Alchemy-Everyone-Chungtao-Ho-ebook/dp/B07JC96GVR/ref=sr_1_3?dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.vtVRZxGNrBR-HTwEOiqCWznK81b6PHP7_BRqdyYG-3Yw1pmLNvm1Lcm2MSoACpkDap82XjkOvQCXOdPSAeI5CxnPEMKUfdHaiYvLWtullhwOzOtDobK9M-BIQ9OgtQqR7Yn-OVpeTtjkUJoC2ix2Yw.wH2IiXW0TL8d9-xPryjeA2FntZBxOrqxAtc8JX-HS6U&dib_tag=se&keywords=inner+alchemy+for+everyone&sr=8-3

 

My own opinion is the foundation for any practice is stillness and that building qi in your dantian too early can lead to big qi deviations  and psychological issues due to traumas in your system (which nearly everyone has). So stillness and trauma-clearing before any qi building exercises.

 

Lots of qi can also inflate your ego like air inflates a ballon. So another thing to look out for.