Qigong and astral travel

[Cobie]

“Those who can learn, can learn from anything; and those who can’t learn, can’t learn from anything.”

 

 

Edited October 20, 2022 by Cobie

[freeform]

26 minutes ago, 鞏三孝 said:

fishy overlap

You do have a way with words! 
 

Oh we’ve been through a period where people thought I’m Damo - you’re not the first cyber sleuth to draw that dramatic conclusion 

 

The carrot dangling bit - I actually agree with. I think that’s problematic. I was discussing the problem of carrot dangling with another member recently.

 

It’s a balancing act. I often dissuade people from cultivation just as much as promote it… particularly if I get a feeling that it’s being treated as a way to fix something difficult in their life. 

 

With most people that get in touch with me directly, we talk about practical stuff first and foremost - ie getting life sorted.

 

I only recommend Damo’s stuff specifically when people ask me for methods - because in my opinion that’s the best that’s openly available - and the dude has integrity.

 

I certainly have my issues with the way he teaches and some aspects of his school… but even so - it’s still one of the best you can join.

 

I’ve recommended other teachers too by the way… better get that magnifying glass out - maybe I’m actually Pa Auk playing the long game! 

[Taoist Texts]

1 hour ago, 鞏三孝 said:

"I keep my teacher's identity quiet because that's what I've been asked to do" (but you can go to Mr Mitchell he is teaching the same stuff, even also has secret esoteric buddhist teachings)

apropos i believe that anyone who recommends any commercial teacher is genuinely deluding himself without any profit to be gained (the margins are too thin to be split)

[Wilhelm]

40 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

apropos i believe that anyone who recommends any commercial teacher is genuinely deluding himself without any profit to be gained (the margins are too thin to be split)

I don't get it.  Deluding himself because there's no profit to be had from the recommendation?  Or because you don't think any commercial teacher is worth recommending?

[Taoist Texts]

2 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

Or because you don't think any commercial teacher is worth recommending?

yes thats what i meant. sorry for being unclear. Normally peeps who recommend a teacher have a psychological need for a father figure or something so they are deluding themselves on account of the teacher's actual achievements or a student's results from the teaching.

 

When pressed for concrete answers they either make up a blatantly fake miracle that the teacher performed; or offer unprovable results that the student allegedly gained like 'health' 'spirituality' etc. 

[Wilhelm]

16 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

yes thats what i meant. sorry for being unclear. Normally peeps who recommend a teacher have a psychological need for a father figure or something so they are deluding themselves on account of the teacher's actual achievements or a student's results from the teaching.

 

When pressed for concrete answers they either make up a blatantly fake miracle that the teacher performed; or offer unprovable results that the student allegedly gained like 'health' 'spirituality' etc. 

Damn that's cynical! 

 

Fair enough though, thanks for clarifying.

[Cobie]

1 hour ago, Taoist Texts said:

… Normally peeps who recommend a teacher have a psychological need for a father figure or something so they are deluding themselves on account of the teacher's actual achievements or a student's results from the teaching. …

 

I think this goes not just for a ‘teacher’,  but also for a ‘teaching from a book’. 
 

 

Edited October 20, 2022 by Cobie

[freeform]

1 hour ago, Wilhelm said:

Damn that's cynical! 

 

Fair enough though, thanks for clarifying.

Our friend @Taoist Texts has a particular dislike for teachers…

 

It’s because he’s had an overbearing father as a child.

 

(Only joking - I have no idea why )

 

But disliking teachers is his thing - and he does make a good case for it - even if I disagree.

 

[Taoist Texts]

32 minutes ago, Cobie said:

I think this goes not just for a ‘teacher’,  but also for a ‘teaching from a book’. 

when a thought is not followed by a 'because' it is not a thought. it is an opinion. everybody got one.

[Taoist Texts]

6 minutes ago, freeform said:

 he’s had an overbearing father as a child.

thats true;)

[Wilhelm]

1 hour ago, freeform said:

disliking teachers

I can certainly appreciate this idea in the context of the predicament we're presented with when looking for a teacher of meditative/energetic/spiritual arts.

 

If you come from a consumer-based mindset you might try googling something like "Best Qigong Teacher" which (just checked) gets you some of the highly marketed schools like Lee Holden's, White Tiger Qigong, Mantak Chia etc.  At the beginning you don't know how to select for quality so you select for popularity - because all those students can't be wrong (bandwagon fallacy). By the way Google wanted to autocorrect to 'Best Qigong Teacher Training'  FML

 

If you're an intellectual you might look up the most highly decorated professors of Daoism like Louis Komjathy, Livia Kohn etc.  Since they know more about the field (if not the practice) than anyone else they'd be an excellent starting point because at least their scholarship is solid (appeal to authority).  

 

A combination of the two above would be someone who wants to attend the 'Harvard' of Daoism, and so would probably check out the Shaolin Temple, Chen Village, Wudang Mountain, White Cloud temple etc. basically the places popularly considered as the most prestigious institutions, which would probably be happy to receive you if you can pay your way.

 

If you're a magical thinker like I was when I started (and still am to a lesser degree) then you'll be looking for someone who talks like they do in Dr. Strange about powers and energy and how 'it's all real', and you'll probably either waste a fair amount of time on bunk or (if you're unlucky) find something with a bit of potency and end up injuring yourself in some way.

 

The implication I'm making is that these are all problematic.  The way I figure you take one of the above routes, hit a dead end, and then you find out how badly you really want this.  Maybe somebody's first teacher is their last one but I haven't met anyone who has had that experience

 

Edit: I guess there's also the possibility someone might try to reverse engineer the process for themselves from what they find on YouTube, reading the classics, or searching forums like Daobums.  I know early on I had this sort of thing in mind, cause it'd be way easier than going to find a teacher, but considering I'm currently on my third try at Duolingo Spanish its safe to say I've nowhere near the genius required to self-direct something MUCH more difficult like the internal arts processes (and as far as I know the last guy to do this created Buddhism, and even he had teachers take him to a high degree of development first).

Edited October 20, 2022 by Wilhelm

[Bindi]

30 minutes ago, freeform said:

Our friend @Taoist Texts has a particular dislike for teachers…

 

It’s because he’s had an overbearing father as a child.

 

(Only joking - I have no idea why )

 

But disliking teachers is his thing - and he does make a good case for it - even if I disagree.

 

FWIW Re: teachers, I agree, you would have to be phenomenal to know the way without a teacher. Having said that, I don’t know how many teachers would actually know the way, so I tend to agree with you, but I also acknowledge TT’s position. What is needed is a phenomenal teacher, and they’re rare as hen’s teeth. 

[freeform]

16 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

the predicament we're presented with

It’s such a minefield, isn’t it!

 

Then there’s the abuse!

 

‘Spiritual’ teachers command so much trust and devotion, any tiny impulse from their base desires easily gets fertilised by this level of devotion and grows out of control.

 

All it takes is a slight deviation from spirit and such a teacher risks going down the wrong path and becoming a monster.

 

They often don’t even notice it happening.

 

It’s very common.

 

In many ways the mainstream commercial relationship is far healthier than something like that.

 

Then there are teachers that simply use the spiritual aesthetic (and nothing more) to achieve whatever it is they seek - from power and control, to adoration - and most often to sex and money…

 

@Taoist Texts and @Bindi both have a fair point.

 

But equally, going it alone with the energetic arts can lead to all sorts of physical and mental health issues.

 

Going down the spiritual route by yourself is also fraught with all manner of delusions and issues.

 

So yeah - we can see that its a pretty difficult road when even the first step is close to impossible for the vast majority.

 

That’s why it is often said that it is one’s karma or Ming that’s of prime importance. 
 

With the right Ming, as @Earl Grey mentioned, you can work your way through even the scummiest teachers to find something of value.

 

For me personally - if I see scummy behaviour in a teacher - I’ll call it out.

If I see someone deluding or damaging themselves or others with invented or self directed practices I’ll call it out.

 

If I don’t know - then I don’t know - and I’ll admit that.

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

How about we get back on topic? This was a good thread before the shit talking started 

[mcoolio]

39 minutes ago, freeform said:

1 hour ago, Wilhelm said:

the predicament we're presented with

It’s such a minefield, isn’t it!

 

But was it ever different?

 

This is just the game and we wanna be players, so we deal with it , or not ...

 

Luckily us seekers have each other to get support from ...

[Wilhelm]

4 minutes ago, Pak_Satrio said:

How about we get back on topic? This was a good thread before the shit talking started 

You got anything on this topic?  I might've posted this already but they only time I'd heard astral travel in a Daoist context was through Jerry Alan Johnson's books, unless dream practices count as the same thing.

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

Just now, Wilhelm said:

You got anything on this topic?  I might've posted this already but they only time I'd heard astral travel in a Daoist context was through Jerry Alan Johnson's books, unless dream practices count as the same thing.

No I’m here to learn, but if I come across anything relevant I will share. 

[Shadow_self]

16 hours ago, freeform said:

He’s like our very own Bruce Frantzis! 

 

Your assessment reflects my own thought...ill explain in the next few posts 

16 hours ago, freeform said:

There are many things in life that can lead to that sort of thing - and I’m not here to judge. I think it’s obvious to most people when someone is a fantasist - so no harm done imo.

 

When there’s teaching involved - well then I have a far higher standard for someone that takes on that role… And I don’t hold back (unless it causes damage to someone).

This is my problem too...and Im going to go into a bit of detail as to exactly why this is the case...using a different teacher (an ex member) as an example

 

Over a year ago...Steve Gray was posting on another forum. He was challenged on a lot of his statements and made look very foolish. He could not explain the mechanics behind any of the practices...and was made look worse with each message.

 

So he did what most people do, he blamed everyone else and took off. But before this happened, something else interesting did

 

He had started looking advice on one of his students of 6 MONTHS who had ALL the signs of serious qi deviations. Admitting he had no TCM knowledge, he started asking people for advice he could give his students ( I already dont need to say how dodgy this is, given that TCM advice shouldnt be given online). After being told to tell his student to stop...and that TCM needs to be done in person...he relented.

 

What he did next is just disturbing

 

He told him that he was having a kundalini awakening, and that this was some kind of record, and testament to his method and how it was a "fast path"

 

This was about 18 months ago...so by now this guy had been under Steve for 2 years....This one is now a teacher for Steve's method

 

https://www.taohermitage.com/instructors.html

 

I dont need to tell you, as a person with a lot of experience in these arts just how dangerous and irresponsible something like this really is...

 

The reason that im bringing it up is not to denounce Steve...its to hammer home the point that any teacher MUST be held to a high standard...and that includes calling out poor behaviour

 

16 hours ago, freeform said:

 

I had looked at some of those articles on ancientmasters.org denouncing various people and practices.
 

The classic nameless, faceless, historyless internet dudes trying to dump on real teachers in an attempt to make a quick buck of some unsuspecting teenagers.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

I didn’t even comment on this before because it’s all a bit sad and pathetic.

 

I guess people are prepared to stoop pretty low coz they feel anonymous…

 

They’re yet to realise that the repercussions won’t come from others discovering them but from themselves, in time.

 

 

If someone wants to teach something, they'll reap the seeds they sow in time.

 

But if their approach to teaching is to tell blatant lies in an attempt to steer students away from people who actually do know what they are talking about. I draw a VERY  hard line myself here

[Cobie]

 

1 hour ago, freeform said:

… it is often said that it is one’s karma or Ming that’s of prime importance. 
 

With the right Ming … you can work your way through even the scummiest teachers to find something of value. …

Exactly.

 

6 hours ago, Cobie said:

“Those who can learn, can learn from anything; and those who can’t learn, can’t learn from anything.”

 

I wasted so much time on crappy teachers and teachings in my life. 
 

 

Edited October 20, 2022 by Cobie

[freeform]

13 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

just disturbing

Yes it is 

 

Hurting yourself with practice is pretty much a given at some stage if you train enough…

 

But being taught that the damage you’ve caused is in fact progress - that’s pretty terrible.

 

At least Steve’s school is pretty small and niche. 
 

Chia created a whole generation of sex mad ‘Taoists’ who permanently damaged their tubing and who are still pissing semen, years after stopping practice.

The level of irresponsibility is just insane.

[Shadow_self]

11 hours ago, Earl Grey said:

 

I have no quarrel with you three @freeform @Neirong @Shadow_self, but I do find no technical difference between an avatar and a curated public image of an individual, be it Damo Mitchell or Bill Cosby, and the actual individual behind that persona.

 

Avatar or public persona, show me their work and their students, friends, enemies, and how they treat the working class and animals, and I’ll decide what to make of them.

Likewise

 

However...I am privy to one GSmasters posts and discussions.

 

I take issue when someone starts telling bold-faced lies about people...its a sign of poor ethics. And I can tell you honestly,  those articles are littered with lies. If I was to go through it point by point it would take me some time to counter each lie.

 

 I get zero benefit from telling the truth....these people get paid if the lie is believed.

 

Teach, earn do what you like if you can handle the karmic load.... but don't do it based on lies and expect not to be called out on it

 

11 hours ago, Earl Grey said:

 

For what it’s worth, I’ve done Neirong’s 100-Day challenger meditation as their foundation technique and can vouch for its impact on all my practices.

I can give you techniques that will benefit your practices also...That just makes me a person with a method that can be used. It does not make me a teacher.

 

My benchmark for teacher is someone that understands the mechanics in detail. So far, when either person has been asked to discuss the mechanics, they refuse. Says quite a bit really...especially given how much time people like @freeform spend openly discussing such things here (free of charge too I might add)

 

So its not that I have a personal problem when asking these questions. I see someone posting as if they are an authority on the topic, yet when asked to show their knowledge, they don't.

 

This is my means of assessing whether they actually know what they are talking about, or just whether they have some methods that work

 

6 hours ago, Earl Grey said:

 

In Tibetan Yoga and the Secret Doctrine, one of the signs of a superior man is to take any technique--incomplete or not--and be able to make something good out of it. The opposite of this virtue is to have something complete and good and be able to achieve nothing good out of it.

 

6 hours ago, Earl Grey said:

Quantifying some of their claims is something I agree might need to be done, though the two questions about this are if 1) they are willing, 2) how they'd even be able to do so.

 

I go back to the point of mechanics...I think if someones going to present themselves as a teacher...they are obliged to show their understanding at a level far beyond here is a method. Most people fail this litmus test...so far, this is what I've seen on that side too.

 

But I'm always open to being wrong

 

6 hours ago, Earl Grey said:

The study of wisdom and the esoteric studies might be a better way of presenting their work, but how they choose to market themselves and what they present is their decision.

 

6 hours ago, Earl Grey said:

Notwithstanding, I maintain my default stance on all practices as quoted by Robert Anton Wilson: "Be agnostic about everything to save yourself heartbreak." Having gone through a few scummy teachers but still being able to get some good even from the worst of them and a lot of good from the least worst of them, I will say there are a number of things I don't necessarily agree with, but I've at least benefited from both discussions with Neirong and the one technique he made available to me as a foundation. I can't comment on the whole course as I haven't done it, but we shall see.

 

Its like I said above, I'm not questioning methods....you can pick up a book and learn potent methods. However, show me books that have the mechanics laid out and detailed. You'll find those are few and far between.

 

And thats really the key to it imo. 

 

I had this discussion with Zork before he took his annual leave...

 

My own observations and experience suggests that whether that be a tantric, magical, devotional or insight based tradition...understanding not only causality but also the conditions, moderators, mediators and so forth, is what separates the wheat from the chaff

 

Getting someone that can discuss this at length, in a manner that is accessible and understandable, but also detailed, that's the mark of a teacher that knows what they are doing

[Shadow_self]

10 minutes ago, freeform said:

Yes it is 

 

Hurting yourself with practice is pretty much a given at some stage if you train enough…

 

But being taught that the damage you’ve caused is in fact progress - that’s pretty terrible.

 

At least Steve’s school is pretty small and niche. 
 

Chia created a whole generation of sex mad ‘Taoists’ who permanently damaged their tubing and who are still pissing semen, years after stopping practice.

The level of irresponsibility is just insane.

 

It doesn't matter how potent a method is, if the teacher doesn't understand the mechanics of what they are doing, then they are not someone you need to be learning from in my opinion.

 

People might find Damo talks at length about subjects. I used to find it tough to get through long discussions, until I realised, hold on,  you're being shown the blueprints here. You really want to understand all this stuff? Then listen attentively

 

Once you've learned from someone with the ability to get to the underlying mechanisms...you very soon start to see that the vast majority of people don't know what they are talking about

 

And Im going to be blunt...I've seen people with abilities, that still dont know.

 

They may have been through the process, developed some qi and so forth, but that doesn't mean they understood it.

[Cobie]

On 16/07/2022 at 9:19 AM, zerostao said:

Once you’re able to astral travel, where will you go and what will you use it for?

“Where” did not matter to me. I wanted it to show that ‘I’ will not die when my body dies.  
 

 

Edited October 20, 2022 by Cobie

[Cobie]

On 21/07/2022 at 4:49 PM, Learner said:

I am also interested in astral travel but I am somewhat afraid of entities that try to attack you. …

Exactly. I too became worried that being out of my body would leave me rather defenceless. 
 

 

Edited October 20, 2022 by Cobie

[Neirong]

10 minutes ago, Cobie said:

Exactly. I too became worried that being out of my body would leave me rather defenceless

 

That is why we teach astral travel as a part of a complete system, not a standalone thing. There is much preparation work to be done; nobody sends neophytes to war against a horde of demons.