Goals

[Ian]

Seems to me (deep breath) that the whole "my practice is better than your practice" thing could be undermined nicely if we established that different people's practices are designed to achieve different results, and therefore not better or worse, just different.

 

Yet this is very hard to establish, because in virtually no cases, in my experience, does anyone speak clearly about what the ultimate goal of their practice is.

 

I don't know why this is, because the ultimate goal of a practice, should, in my opinion, be the most important thing about it.

 

If one were being uncharitable, one might assume that the silence on this topic is largely because people are embarrassed to admit that don't really know/never dared to ask their teacher. Or because they kind of know where they think they're going, but can't quite see how their current practice is going to get them there.

 

If one were slightly kinder one might think that people are embarrassed to mention the goal of their practice because it's either

 

a very abstract seeming spiritual destination which others might mock as unreal, or

a very mundane goal of heath and contentment which others might mock as unambitious.

 

So, would anyone care to state their destination? Especially anyone who thinks their practice is superior to anything else?

 

At the very least, we could make a division between between practices pointing towards liberation and practices pointing towards immortality, if those goals are still considered different these days.

[.broken.]

Although I am not one who thinks my practices are better than those of others, I would like to state my goal.

 

My goal is that of complete enlightenment as found in the sutras. Along the way I would like to teach others what I know and help heal some poorly folk too.

 

Patience, compassion and charity are my tools.

Edited January 11, 2008 by .broken.

[Taiji Bum]

My goal is ascension.

 

Edit: Ooops, I dont think my practice is better than anyone elses.

Edited January 11, 2008 by DarinHamel

[rain]

...............

Edited April 17, 2008 by rain

[Trunk]

one might assume that the silence on this topic is largely because people are embarrassed to admit that don't really know/never dared to ask their teacher. Or because they kind of know where they think they're going, but can't quite see how their current practice is going to get them there.

My experience is that's somewhere in the right ball-park. Most of the groups I've been in, the actual level of coherent understanding by students, group-as-whole, has been abysmal. People'd say their goal was "enlightenment", and they'd maybe have a few scattered ideas about what it might be like but mostly unknown. And clear understanding of process was as sketchy or worse. Mostly just inspiration to be around an accomplished teacher, practicing, and hoping that it'd come together at some point.

[Cameron]

Deep question.

 

I don't know the answer.

 

At this point, balancing all of the different dimensions of "self" and gaining clarity about reality seems where it is at.

[Mal]

To be prepared for death, and to live without fear.

[Ian]

Thanks to those who have answered.

 

Anyone else? I'm always amazed how few people want to respond to this topic.

[Mal]

It's a bit scary to put your goal out there...........

 

there is also the "first rule of fight club" to think about

[VCraigP]

Ian

 

You are so right on.

 

this is not a fun one to respond to it is fundamental and self exposing.

 

I have tried in a roundabout way to ask such a question myself in my Neigong thread. What are the goals of Neigong?

 

Anyway my goals:

 

Vibrant health.

Longevity.

Inner peace.

Spiritual knowledge.

Healing ability.

 

Oh yeah, almost forgot. Immortality...he he.

 

I mean why not. If you are gonna be a bear, might as well be a grizzlie.

 

I think I have gone a little way down the road with 3-4 of these. Long way to go, no arrival, just going on the way. Tao

 

And yes my answer is partially tongue in cheek. And no, I don't know what enlightenment means.

 

Craig

[sean]

I think the problem I have with exercises in finding an ultimate goal is that, trying to find it in my mind, pretty soon I drop into a thoughtless state and see something like Tao (what "I" really am) is Whole and needs nothing that a dance of thoughts and desires called Sean can rationally articulate as an end-goal for himself.

 

I'll try anyway:

 

Happiness + Clarity + Tranquility +

Love / Mudita + Bliss + Passion + Charisma + Health +

Wealth + Power + Aesthetics + Compassion + Purpose

 

Sean

[Procurator]

Thanks to those who have answered.

 

Anyone else? I'm always amazed how few people want to respond to this topic.

most people are hard wired for their destiny. it figures that if your goals are set for you already anyway, there is no much use in defining them.

[rain]

most people are hard wired for their destiny. it figures that if your goals are set for you already anyway, there is no much use in defining them.

 

i don't think that's what einstein felt when he said "I want to know God's thoughts; the rest are details."

[seadog]

just trying to get back home

[steve]

Very well put and sobering post Ian. Quite worthy of a genuine attempt at a sincere reply.

Clearly one of the tougher questions we can wrestle with but here goes...

 

I am actually trying to be in a "let go" as Osho liked to call it -

I don't want to have a goal and I don't want to not have a goal

at the same time, I'm looking to connect deeply with life, for what else is there to do?

and when all is said and done I hope to be remembered as having been compassionate.

Thoreau put it well: "I wanted to live deeply and suck all the marrow out of life..."

 

Having a goal or not having a goal both arise from the illusion of duality. There is no separation so of what use is a goal? I see this fundamental truth but it is another thing altogether to remain in the world and live it. My illusory, or should I say transient, goals are to provide as much security and nourishment for my family and loved ones as I can, to provide the best possible care for my patients, and to be a good teacher, student, and training partner at my school. Behind that is the knowledge that it's all a game not to be taken too seriously so that there doesn't have to be so much suffering.

 

My practice methods are no better (or worse) than any others. No method can show you the truth. Method is folly but understanding this does not mean you cannot practice and derive benefit and enjoyment from the practice. The truth emcompasses all methods but one must transcend method to reach it. Methods are useful but ultimately limiting. The same is true for gurus. Method implies duality, guru implies duality. They are necessary for most people to guide them to the door, and many methods can do that well, but you must open it and step through yourself, naked, vulnerable, and without desire or goal. No one can do that for you and the process is necessarily unique for each of us.

 

There are gurus out there that have an aura of insincerity and exploitation about them. I respond to them negatively and make my opinions known in an effort to help people avoid pain and disappointment. Once I've spoken my piece, I let it go and move on, as I've done on this forum. Beyond that, I try not to denigrate anyone's practices.

[Procurator]

i don't think that's what einstein felt when he said "I want to know God's thoughts; the rest are details."

einstein was an ultimate plagiarist and a fraud, what a fraud says is inconsequential.

Edited January 14, 2008 by Procurator

[rain]

einstein was an ultimate plagiarist and a fraud, what a fraud says is inconsequential.

 

 

aha? close friend of yours, he was?

[Mal]

[forestofsouls]

I think part of the difficulty with stating a goal is that they change. I doubt very many of us have had the same goals throughout our practice. Perhaps part of this is that the practice itself changes us, and our goals with it. Part of it may be because as we progress, our ignorance decreases, and we begin to learn what is possible and what is valuable. When we achieve our goals, are we really fulfilled?

 

When I was younger, I dreamed of becoming rich and hedonistic. Now, older and more experienced, I understand that these things do not fulfill. When I started my practice, I wanted to not feel like a worm in a frying pain. Now that suffering has diminished, this goal is no good.

 

Perhaps setting a goal limits us and our practice. Enjoying the practice for itself allows us to travel wherever the road takes us. We are not looking for specific fruits, and are able to reap the gifts we receive. Perhaps the greatest goal is to move beyond them.

[mwight]

The goal of my practice is to never be born into this or any other world again. I wish to break the cycle of death and rebirth.

 

Also a correct and complete understanding of the workings of the multiverse, or enlightenment would be a close second goal. I would also like to be able to heal and help other beings who seek the same goals.

[neimad]

Happiness + Clarity + Tranquility +

Love + Bliss + Passion + Charisma + Health +

Wealth + Power + Aesthetics + Compassion + Purpose

 

Ditto.

 

 

Thanks for putting it in more words than I would have thought of.

 

I was just gonna go with "happiness" but this is much better.

[freeform]

Goals are interesting.

 

Personally I believe that the "I" that makes goals is so narrow and limited in its ability to see what is possible (or just what 'is') that it's not to be trusted with something as important and broad as spiritual growth.

 

There is another "I" that just leads, or flows - it's hard to explain because the "I" that explains is the same as the I that makes goals...

 

Of course these limited "I's" are not to be ignored and forgotten because they're not so 'spiritual' - I still make small goals - I would like to have less internal auditory dialogue and more internal visual 'thought' - I would like to soften my body - I would like to learn more about anger...

 

Making a goal means creating separation, limiting consciousness and being specific - it's part of the deal. So the achievement of your goal will always be dual, limited and specific.

 

Enlightenment or wu-wei or whatever you may think as a possible 'ultimate goal' is on the opposite end of the spectrum - it's vague, non-spcific, non-dual and unlimited.

 

so making a goal (limited) to achieve enlightenment (unlimited) is like trying to capture the entire universe in a cup.

 

So the best way to use goals, as far as I'm concerned, is to make them very specific and very limited and then letting it all go and becoming unlimited and general, then let that go and settle in the middle and watch the two dance - part of the dance will be achieving your goal or getting something even better, something you might never have expected.

 

Ian, I'm sure you'll have a certain reaction to my 'relativityness', and I'm pretty sure the above will make little sense. If you feel like it, ask me specific questions and I'll give you specific answers and lets see if we can capture a satisfying cup-full of the universe.

 

PS - this reminds me of a little drill I used to do - I would stare at something very intently, focusing all my awareness on a single point, and when it's achieved I would broaden my focus, start to open up my peripheral vision and extend my awareness in all directions, trying to take in 'everything' rather than 'something' - when I settled into that I would again narrow my focus on something specific and then back again - trying to do this faster each round... when I reached a certain speed of going back and forth, it turned very strange - the two started to blend and I started to experience one within another - neither being specific nor being general - somewhere in the middle, but also encompassing both - and that's when I started witnessing the dance that happens - this was very pleasant and nourishing...

[宁]

i was going to post a list of them, but then i remembered i didnt precisely know, that if the first goal fulfills, would i have any interest any more in all the rest of the goals...

 

first goal would be to be whole and complete again

[hagar]

Ian

 

Thank you for posting a really good question.

 

I don't think it's because people are afraid or embarassed that they don't verbalize or state their goals here or elsewhere.

 

In truth I think it's because the goal or goals are clouded by two very complex aspects:

 

1. As you go into spiritual cultivation, the inital goals or reasons for practicing change or dissappear.

For me this has happened for a number of reasons, but mostly these:

a) I realize the naive or childish foundation on which these were established

I had transformative experiences that made these goals irrelevant, or better yet absurd

 

2. Going through life, facing it's challenges and chaos, the reason you do what you do are mostly not very articulated, or conscious. (if you are not a monk, and has taken vows). For many, including me, the reason I cultivate are a mix of delusions of grandeur, the need to ease the pain of life, a refuge, a place of hope, a state of comfort, security, control, wanting to be special, remove myself from the mundane reality of life, become a little modern day recluse, etc. etc. And in that sense, I am not very different from the average gym rat, anorectic, workaholic, or poser. Most of these are not goals per se, but forces of motivation. As for the goals for practice proper, these are very seldom truly sincere. With real sincerity comes responsibility, and that's scary.

 

But maybe the real reason I feel that there is very little about my practice that is related to the goals of practice is this: The practice very seldom leads me in the direction of my conscious goals:

I want peace but experience hardship

I need health, but experience recurring health problems

I seek wisdom, insight and security but are faced with confusion, turmoil and doubt.

 

And directly related to practice, all the sensations of what I felt was "correct" practice has now, for most, dissapeared. Not alot of chi sensation, no tangible signs of "transformation", and so the hunger for "rewards" in my practice is dwelling in this really vague, undefined space where form and sitting is just what it is: practice. And mostly it feels really meaningless.

 

My master warned against this, and said that most people drop out at this stage.

 

h

Edited January 16, 2008 by hagar

[Starjumper]

The goal of my practice is for becoming healthy and happy.

 

My practice is for health, longevity and spiritual growth for hermits.

 

My practice is for cultivating high levels of energy for healing, bliss, and psychic purposes.

 

My practice is sometimes called the path of the sorcerer.

 

Seems to me (deep breath) that the whole "my practice is better than your practice" thing could be undermined nicely if we established that different people's practices are designed to achieve different results, and therefore not better or worse, just different.

 

Yet this is very hard to establish, because in virtually no cases, in my experience, does anyone speak clearly about what the ultimate goal of their practice is.

 

I don't know why this is, because the ultimate goal of a practice, should, in my opinion, be the most important thing about it.

 

If one were being uncharitable, one might assume that the silence on this topic is largely because people are embarrassed to admit that don't really know/never dared to ask their teacher. Or because they kind of know where they think they're going, but can't quite see how their current practice is going to get them there.

 

If one were slightly kinder one might think that people are embarrassed to mention the goal of their practice because it's either

 

a very abstract seeming spiritual destination which others might mock as unreal, or

a very mundane goal of heath and contentment which others might mock as unambitious.

 

So, would anyone care to state their destination? Especially anyone who thinks their practice is superior to anything else?

 

At the very least, we could make a division between between practices pointing towards liberation and practices pointing towards immortality, if those goals are still considered different these days.