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@ChiDragon as promised my understanding: OK I will outline how I understand qigong and Neidan. The first thing to say is that it is not my specialist subject but I did study under a Chinese gentleman from Hong Kong who was living in England at that time, about thirty years ago. He taught me a qigong form called 'Nine Rings' and a Neidan mediation called Iron Mountain Lineage to a level where he said I could teach them to others. About 5/6 years ago when I was considering returning to Daoism as a main practice I studied English translations of a number of texts, such as Wang Mu and the Cantong qi, making detailed notes and so on. So I have some slight experience of the subject. The first thing to say is that qigong and Neidan are different. Qigong, which I would call skills in working with qi (in the body) has the goal of wellbeing, that is health and happiness. While Neidan has the goal of making the dan and from that immortality (although I don't think this means necessarily through a physical vehicle). Qigong involves three things. First developing 'sung' with the body. In other words mostly through standing postures you learn to relax the body round its frame such that it becomes a kind of absorbant container for qi. This is a distinct feeling which arises after long standing or sitting postures. Then the regulation of the breath, so it is smoothly in and out and continuous, and thirdly the focussed resting of your attention on the body undistracted by thoughts and so on. When this happens (which takes varying amounts of time depending on the person) you begin to become aware of qi on your body. Then the breathing and movement exercises operate through the three – body movement, breath and attention – all together which circulate and move qi in the body (and beyond as you can also learn to project qi). As to what qi is, well this is difficult to say, in some ways it is an effect and in others it is an agent of change. Calling it energy is not wrong but it's not right either. It is best left as being qi based on experiencing it, not speculating about it. Neigong is just as qigong but without so much of the physical movement. The goal of these two is health and happiness or wellbeing as I would put it. Neidan is different. The usual version of where this came from is that it evolved from WeiDan, that is alchemy using substances to make pills or medicines for health and immortality. But I think it is more likely that the whole project of Dan production began as both inner and outer together and then split into two schools, one dealing with outer substances and the other with inner substances. The Neidan approach retained the technical terms from outer alchemy, like lead, sulpher, cinnabar and so on … but applied them differently. The same was done with the TCM system of channels and nodes – the same terms were applied slightly differently and with different emphasis. So Neidan was quite technical and secret because the terminology was opaque to those who were not initiated. However the main point is the creation of the Dan through 'alchemically' mixing inner substances and then processing it to produce an immortal body. This is quite different to qigong, although they are obviously related because they both deal in the three treasures for instance. The level of intensity with Neidan is quite different. Qigong is basically benign but Neidan can be dangerous if misapplied. Jing is not a physical substance but is the most condensed form of qi before it becomes physical. As the physical is just this, a precipitate of qi. Shen is the most fine form of qi which forms the basis for mental activity. All three are a spectrum of states of qi, like ice, water, steam … are all the same substance in different phases. Knowledge and understanding of qi depends entirely on developing qi sensitivity. If one doesn't have it you are unlikely to understand it properly. But once you have it all philosophical speculations about its nature become redundant.

My 2025 started off rough, by spring I attempted a move. Didn't work out. Late summer, tried another move, didn't go as planned, yet, worked out in other ways. Fall has been good. Beginning this winter much better than a year ago. Reflecting on 2025, personally,,, new found direction. Looking at 2026, looking forward. Knowing, things continue to change. I learned a new way to offer Cheers, salut, etc And to all ya'lls bums, I raise my glass sans clinking Formidable!!

Fire from the Heavenly Stem hits the stable where the Horse has been chomping at the bit for 60 years. The Horse jumps out of the burning gate and takes off galloping, mane fiery, tail ablaze. It never fails to leave its hoof prints on the world's politics, economy, and landscape. Here are some of them: 1846 Mexican–American War begins, reshaping the future borders of the U.S. Peasant uprising in Galicia, future Ukraine, engineered by the occupying Austrian empire against the local Polish nobility. 1906 San Francisco earthquake and fire, one of the worst urban disasters in U.S. history. Mount Vesuvius eruption in Italy, a major disaster affecting Naples and surrounding regions. 1966 Cultural Revolution begins in China, profoundly reshaping society and politics. Flooding in Italy destroys a lot of cultural heritage in Florence and Venice. A major escalation in the Vietnam war. 2026 -- ? Of course there were good things happening too. The type of qi known as the Fire Horse can be quite transformative and, under the right circumstances and given the right treatment, energizing, illuminating, and magnificent. But it's the most volatile kind of them all, unpredictable and not easily governable. Let's hope no pale riders manage to mount it.

I read the title of this thread as ‘Saving Private Neidan’ on first take made me laugh.

After many years of practice, the slow spiraling movements of tai chi become part of one´s personality; the habit of deep diaphramatic breathing results in a remarkable steady calm. No doubt this explains why Dao Bums forum members are unfailingly peaceful, remarkably free from the pugilistic impulses that characterize interaction in other corners of the intrawebs. Our tendency towards good cheer and amiability was especially apparent in that area of the site, now defunct, known as "Current Events." Did we always agree with one another? We did not. But even when we found ourselves at extreme idiological odds, we never failed to recognize the humanity and basic good will of our fellows. On that rare occasion when a post resulted in passing annoyance, we looked inward: what unresolved issue within us was responsible for this prick of discontent? Such is the way of the refined heart. And so, with all the gratitude and warm fuzzies I can muster, I raise my glass to you my fellow Bums. May you saunter on into the expanse of the desert or the misty mountains or the bathroom down the hall, wherever your path may lead. Happy New Year!!! LL

Moderator Note: In the interest of intelligibility and inclusivity we would like members to provide translations or at minimum transliterations of posts that include words or text in Chinese characters. This will give posts a wider reach and promote more wide ranging discussion. Thanks. A.

The current rule would at least require at least a demonstrable source--- i.e. a reference to either a particular school or text (understanding that schools and text may not always agree). If there is enough demand, I imagine we could create some section with those limitations. I don't think we have the software for that, and even if we did, I don't think it would matter. It is fairly easy to take a screenshot and pull text. Pancakes, arrested, hooker.

Happy New Year to you Luke, and to the rest of you Bums. May 2026 bring out the best in us!

Bah, there’s already a hundred “illuminated translations” out there. Going forward I am happy to represent the quale grokker community.

I would suggest some meditation on what it actually means before translating. For instance why is the invisible that which produces heaven and earth. What is heaven, what earth and so on. Otherwise you are working in the dark so to speak.

PS - some constructive criticism. If you are interested in an English translation that people can comprehend, that helps them understand the original, I would not use the words grok or quale. Only elderly science fiction fans would know the meaning of grok and quale is not a word in common usage.

Two men visit an abbot at a monastery at different times. The first man said, “I’m thinking of moving to this town. What is it like?” The abbot asked, “What was it like in your old town?” The first man responded, “It was terrible. Everyone was full of hate. I did not like it there.” The abbot said, “This town is very much the same. I do not think you should move here.” The first man left and the second man came in. The second man said, “I’m thinking of moving to this town. What is it like?” The abbot asked, “What was your old town like?” The second man responded, “It was wonderful. Everyone was nice and friendly. I was happy. Now, I just wanted a change of scenery.” The abbot said, “This town is very much the same. I think you will like it here.”

As you may see, we are considering establishing a private neidan subforum. Unlike most of the TDB, the contents on this forum would only be viewable by TDB members with 20 posts, would be limited to neidan discussion (based on well-recognized texts, established schools and lineages). In other words, it would be a semi-private place for neidan based discussion. The forum title would be visible to AI and general non-members, but posts and comments would not. Before proceeding down this path, I wanted to open up to community thoughts and feedback. Let us know your thoughts/concerns/issues.

This may not be a symptom of progress. When the mind is truly quiet and open, not grasping, there are qualities that arise spontaneously - warmth, joy, compassion, and creativity, and there is some sense that anything satisfies. The absence of these energetic manifestations of the base is an indication that something is blocking our progress. Often it is an aberrant view such as nihilism or an unbalanced practice, prioritizing the mental over the physical and emotional, for example. Another common cause of this sort of deviation is bypassing, neglecting to bring our real life challenges onto the cushion, or neglecting to bring our practice into life's activities, in a way that supports genuine transformation. Something to consider if you feel like there is something lacking in your life or your practice.

Since this was posted in the Buddhist sub, here is a Zen story for this kind of condition, which ZM Seung Sahn turned into a kong an (koan): The Buddha only taught two things: Dukkha and the end of Dukkha. Dukkha is the dissatisfaction of not getting enough of the things we want, and too much of the things we don't. Getting one's emotions under control is good, but another step is needed. As Oldbob mentioned, desire can be a useful energy. In Zen terms, the desire to wake up our to our true selves keeps us on the path. And then, when we see that, we help others to do the same. To me, that is the ultimate teaching of the Buddha's enlightenment. He didn't just sit there with the knowledge of his true self. He shared it with the world. _/|\_ Keith

你真是太懂我了！Nǐ zhēnshi tài dǒng wǒle! შენ ჩემს აზრებს კითხულობ! Shen chems azrebs k’itkhulob! Ты прочёл мои мысли! Ty prochyol moyi mysli! You have read my thoughts! /ju hæv rɛd maɪ θɔts/ The second line of the above is in Georgian. I don't know the language but I do know the alphabet. Me and my girlfriends at school learned it from a Georgian classmate circa the 6th grade in order to exchange coded messages during lessons by transliterating them into that alphabet. The motives were strictly pragmatic -- so that classmates who passed little pieces of paper with messages along, or the teachers should they intercept them, wouldn't be able to read them. Now I wonder... what purpose does it serve to use a writing system here guaranteed to not be understood by nearly everyone on the forum. Just curious.

The subforum is currently in Beta and is now open. Please use responsibly! Feel free to offer suggestions. Everything is open to discussion.

Probably, but it may be hard to find. Even neigong the real deal is something that is mostly taught in private, one on one, for all kinds of reasons. E.g. "pearls before the swine" is avoided, "teacher tell all, go hungry" is another consideration, persecution of taoists that repeated many times throughout history (communists didn't invent it, emperors did long before them) and what not. The culture has always been big on "family secrets," "secret skills," "secret manuals," "secret formulas,' "secret transmissions" and so on, from neidan to porcelain to herbal formulas to martial styles, it was more common than not to not tell everything, and often tell nothing outside the family or school. This is not just history, this is also true in our time. Even though a lot of Chinese movies and Jin Yong's novels are centered around the pursuit of such secrets , all of it has a real-life cultural counterpart. If the private forum materializes, I might tell a story or two... can't share in a public space, so for now they are secret.

The CPC is known to have insisted on the "out with the old, in with the new" approach most decisively for decades. Traditional arts and sciences were condemned, taoist temples burned to the ground, practitioners publicly humiliated, sent to "reeducation camps" and so on. The legacy lingers -- although later they took a somewhat different stance and the pendulum started moving toward "restoration." They realized that all those things they used to condemn can be turned into tourist attractions and marketable trinkets. So it's not unusual to encounter views in people influenced by this sort of education that glorify things traditional at the cost of the tradition itself, by reformulating it in "modern" quasi-scientific terms. Instead of forbidding all things cultivation they try to give them Western style respectability. This is a very simplified picture of course...

Once upon a time, Zena the Poet was asked to describe what it feels like to ride a bike. After a moment of reflection, she recited: Balancing on my butt-bone I press my toes onto the pedals As the wind rushes through my hair A thousand years later, Albert the Learned was seen sitting on a block of wood while smushing flower petals under his feet, with a fan pointed at his head. When asked what he was doing, he replied "I am riding a bye cycle! You probably wouldn't understand it."

So true … when alone in solitude I cry out to my master to deliver the blow which will deliver my final awakening .. I pray thus: My loneliness is killing me (and I) I must confess, I still believe (still believe) When I’m not with you I lose my mind Give me a sign Hit me, baby, one more time

Errrmmmm ... yes you are ( you just dont realize it )

I’ve been through the desert on a horse with no name It felt good to be out of the rain In the desert you can remember your name ‘Cause there ain’t no one for to give you no pain

Same in finnish: taivas. I once said to my neighbor in broken finnish something like "the sky is beautiful" and he got this weird look on his face. afterwards, i figured he probably thought I was talking about heaven.

In Portuguese the word for sky is ceu and the word for Heaven, Ceu. Just for interest.

Skål, God bless and thank you! The journey continues! '

The characters and translation used by CD are (my highlights and layout): Classical did not use commas (these were inserted by CD). To define a term, they put e.g. 也者 between noun and definition. 無 used as a noun, only had the meaning of 'nothing(ness)'. 有 used as a noun had the meanings: existence; posession, having. "Tao at/as" is not in the characters (it was inserted by CD). Good practice is to put [square brackets] around what you insert into a translation.

The characters here are: Twice the translator had to chose a meaning for 道 . The listing for 道 in Kroll: ~~~<>~~~ dao4 ~~~<>~~~ 1. way that leads somewhere, road, route, pathway, passage. 2. the Way; as image suggesting how things actually exist, fundamental reality, a constant Way in which the diverse ways of living and relating are essentially balanced and whole. a. conceptual term used by all schools of thought, with same root metaphor but varying connotations: Confucian ‘Way’ incl. norms of social responsibility and personal conduct exemplified by ideal worthies such as King Wen of the Zhou, the Duke of Zhou, etc.; Dao. ‘Way’ points to absolute and ineffable reality behind flux and modalities of the world, and advisability of taking it as model; Budd. ‘Way’ incl. possibility of release from the round-of-birth-and-death (samsara) and recognition of contingent and impermanent nature of human existence. b. 道士 dao4 shi4 gentleman of the Way, exemplar of the Confucian ‘Way’; also, expert in the ‘Way’, specialist in occult or mantic practices, syn. 方士 fang4 shi4; also (med.), Daoist adept, usu. associated with an organised Dao. community (see 5a below), priest. N.B. Contrast these with (med) 道人 dao4 ren2, man of religion, a Budd. monk (not Dao.). 3. way of doing something, course of action, method, proper procedure, practice; e.g. 所以 求 之 之 道 suo3 yi3 qiu2 zhi1 zhi0 dao4, the means by which one seeks it; 道場 dao4 chang2, place of practice, arena of the Way, altar, Budd. or Dao. chapel. a. guiding road, rule of conduct, principle, guidelines. b. doctrine, tenets, dicta; teachings. c. (Budd.) the Buddha-path, path to enlightenment. 4. skill or art of a particular kind, specialisation. 5. ideas and teachings esp. associated with the texts Zhuangzi and Laozi (or Daodejing); e.g. 道家 dao4 jia1, lineage of the Way, bibliographic category ref. to these and related texts, often defined as ‘philosophical Daoism’ in contrast to next. a. practices esp. associated with movements and texts relating to masters of self-cultivation, pursuit of immortality, and various organised religious communities, esp. those ultimately deriving from the Way of the Celestial Masters (tiashidao 天 師 道 [tian1 shi1 dao4]) founded in mid-2nd-c. CE; e.g. (med.) 道教 dao4 jiao4, teaching of the Way, from early 5th-c. CE a term assoc. with groups and texts just described, often defined now as ‘religious Daoism’. 6. say, speak; express, communicate orally; cue. 7. circuit, administrative area outside the usu. prefecture/district (junxian 郡縣 [jun4 xian4 prefecture county]) structure; in Han times ref. frontier areas mainly populated by non-Chinese; in Tang times also ref. frontier area but from 706 on more importantly to large units of province size throughput the state, each of which (10 at first) incl. many prefectures and governed by special commissioners (shi 使 [shi3 sent]). 8. (med.) understand, be aware of; think, presume. a. (med.) expect; have a sense that X is likely to happen. ~~~<>~~~ dao3 ~~~<>~~~ 1. (interchangeable) 導 dao3 1. lead, lead the way, show the way; conduct, guide. ~~~ Even after filtering out (e.g. ‘med.’, ‘Budd.’), I will still be left with a plethora of choices.

Thread locked because of tiresome drivel. FoC may reopen if there is a reason to. A.

Jesus H. Christ.

Another factor is that those "serious things" are often quite secretive, sometimes for good reason, perhaps sometimes not. I know that I feel uncomfortable sharing things my teacher asked us to keep to ourselves, be that personal experiences and insights from practice, specific information, or practical instruction. In part this is because certain information can be useless, misinterpreted, or even harmful when pursued before the student is prepared. Not saying a focused and well--moderated neidan forum would necessarily be a bad idea but I do think there will be challenges.

I think people who know serious things, if I can put it that way, are nervous about posting their ideas and being greeted with ridicule or low IQ takes. It’s a frustrating and depressing experience. As is immediate derailment into the world of slop.

One of my favorite modern parables is Anthony Demello's parable about Jesus, or someone like him... "A man invents the art of making fire and travels to cold, snow-covered regions where hill tribes shiver in the bitter cold. He teaches them how to make fire, showing them its benefits—staying warm, cooking food, building shelters. The people learn eagerly and are deeply grateful. But before they can thank him, he quietly slips away, uninterested in recognition or praise, embodying the nature of true greatness. He moves to another tribe and teaches them the same skill. His popularity grows, alarming the local priests who fear losing their influence. They poison him. When suspicion arises, the priests act swiftly to protect themselves. They place a portrait of the Great Inventor on the temple altar and create a liturgy to honor his name. The tools he used to make fire are enshrined in a sacred casket, believed to heal those who touch them with faith. The High Priest writes a biography of the Inventor, which becomes a Holy Book—celebrating his love, glorifying his deeds, and declaring his divine nature as a core article of faith. The priests ensure the Book is passed down through generations, interpreting its meaning authoritatively and punishing any deviation with excommunication or death. Over time, the rituals, worship, and veneration are meticulously preserved for decades, then centuries. Yet, despite all the reverence, there is no fire. The people have forgotten how to make it. They have ritual, gratitude, and devotion—but no transformation. Prayer is not a symbol of fire—it is fire itself, meaning inner transformation through awareness. If worship doesn’t lead to love, if liturgy doesn’t bring clearer perception, if God doesn’t lead to life, then religion is useless—breeding only division and fanaticism. The world doesn’t lack religion; it lacks love and awareness. True spirituality is not about rituals, but about awakening to reality, seeing through illusions, and allowing the fire of awareness to change your being."

I think ChiDragon has a future in US politics...

I know what you think, I wasn’t asking you.

Nope, the idea was not an elitist club, anymore than a tennis club that wants its members to be tennis players rather than football players bent on preaching to them about the correct shape of the ball they should be playing with. Or a football club that tries to stop tennis players from running around the field swinging their racquets at the goalkeeper. TBH that idea was born out of sheer frustration... a pipe dream... something along the lines of that tree house rule:

Google yields even more reliable results if you put site:thedaobums.com in your query. It's a great tip to know as of course works with any other domain name. On a similar note, i noticed when viewing a user's content history (either via the newspaper icon on profile, or the 🔍Find Content popup) it only goes back a few months. To get the full list you just have to click Posts on left side of the window, or from the Content Type drop-down if using a small window.

Scrutinizing from the top-left (ignoring getting yeeted by slang) i got "tv hi ki" (classical for "turn on the television, say hi to qi.") which does in fact remind me of a Christmas long past, when sat for countless hours in front of that glowing phosphor portal, painstakingly reassembling the Triforce of Wisdom. After that I got the bigger picture and received some hooker dinosaur love. That said, it goes without saying there must always be some wiggle room in what constitutes thread derailment or downright goofing. Having a clear declaration of where it should be avoided is a good idea. And I agree it would be nice to be able to represent specific lineages in a respectable and precise manner.

I got cake, weed, and arrested! 🤣

Yin Yang imbalance, excessive fire in heart/liver, yuan jing dispersion, madness, also one can get very dumb if does sitting meditations too much without correct moving exercises, also blocks in some channels may occur and entities possession/attack I heard about a guy who did correct methods but went mad Another guy did correct methods and had Hindu God visitation who said to him to visit Sai Baba in India and he went there and quit Daoist practice

I think that sounds good, many of the posts in daoist discussion seem neidan adjacent so i'd be interested to hear more about what specifically goes in which place Also something that might help there is, (as i'm guessing its supposed to attract more high quality info and discussion), an informal rule of the OP stating which tradition they're talking about before bringing up the topic Like Topic: Pore breathing visualization Dragons gate lineage Does anyone have some tips for the visualization when doing WLPs pore breathing exercise vs the current Topic: Pore breathing anyone know how to pore breath bro *15 page flame war with 5 different schools* Something to consider is that very specific topics often only have a few people that can answer the question, and so there tends to be a lot of threads that have no replies, a good example is dharmawheel where theres a ton of empty threads because people are asking things that only a few thousand people on earth can answer Maybe something like, general open discussions of neidan can still go in Daoist Discussion and then the neidan subforum can be used for people who only want that specialized info and are fine with waiting for someone who can genuinely discuss the topic?

One of the first texts that openly (without symbols) discusses this subject, states the neidan teaching (as different from the qigong method) 命蒂从来在真息 It is by Cao Wenyi (1039-1119) and says that the stem of ming is always in True Breath. Of course, what is True Breath is a matter of debate, but it is clear it is not normal breath. I think that northern, southern and central schools agree with it.

Chapter 14 The invisible Tao 1. 視之不見,名曰夷。 2. 聽之不聞,名曰希。 3. 摶之不得,名曰微。 4. 此三者不可致詰， 5. 故混而為一。­ 6. 其上不皦， 7. 其下不昧， 8. 繩繩不可名， 9. 復歸於無物。 10.是謂無狀之狀， 11.無物之象， 12.是謂惚恍。 13.迎之不見其首， 14.隨之不見其後。 15.執古之道以御今之有。 16.能知古始， 17.是謂道紀。 Translated in terse English... 1. View it couldn't see, name and call it Colorless. 2. Listen to it couldn't hear, name and call it Soundless. 3. Touch it couldn't feel, name and call it Formless. 4. These three are inseparable 5. These three objects blended in one. 6. Its top is not brilliant. 7. Its bottom is not dim. 8. Its continuance is unnameable. 9. Returned to being formless(state of invisibility), 10. Is called a form of no form. 11. An image of formless, 12. Is called obscure. 13. Greet it cannot see its head. 14. Follow it cannot see its back. 15. Grasp the presence of Tao to see all existing things, 16. Able to understand the ancient origin, 17. It's called the Principles of Tao.

The character for Xìng 性 Life is made up of the radical for xīn 心 heart, and shēng 生 birth (depicted by a plant sprouting from the earth.) For Mìng 命 Destiny the two kǒu 口 mouths are proclaiming lìng 令 decrees (depiction of placing a seal onto a document.) Zhongwen.com - Chinese Characters Etymologies

Lady Xing looks like a shamaness holding a distaff and thread, and Master Ming looks like a water buffalo. What do these actually depict?

The story also points out that wisdom without compassion is meaningless. As the monk does realize the daughter is there not because of some great emotional connection. But, he misses the point of her being there at all. And thus, having realized the monk has not learned this, the old woman burnt the hermitage down which also shows that wisdom without compassion is not complete. True, words on paper do not always convey the true tone of the words. However, from what I have read of your posts, I do realize that you do have much more knowledge of these matters and also have given them much more thought than I have. So, I have no wish to argue a pointless point and just leave it to opinion.

* Mod Note: Xing/Dharmakaya Daoist-Buddhist Discussion Split off here:*

Why not give it a try? at most we are back to where we are now.

The dharma is all about removing obstructions!