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I have had what I call luminous dreams (which is just a name I give them not a significant claim) where the dreams are especially bright and also stay with you - you don't forget them like ordinary dreams. They are always very significant and meaningful. But most of my dreams are just rather confused and full of my own metal stresses and concerns. The luminous dreams seem to contain messages which last and are guidance for long periods of time. I've had quite a few pre-cognition dreams where I dream about things which later come true (sometimes many years later). This proves to me that time is not linear and that all that happens to us is interconnected. I think that to rest one's consciousness in the pristine consciousness itself is quite an achievement in itself. But as a goal it is limited as it presents as a separate state - so it is prone to abstraction and negation of life and the world. But it is part of something more complete. That more complete thing engages both the subtle and physical body - and this is where the 'work' is. Whether you work through dreams or not, or through meditation and other processes, there is a task to be undertaken. I think mahamudra and dzogchen do have a fault in that this task is disguised in a lot of talk of resting in the natural state etc. which is very misleading if not fully understood. I am big fan of Karma Pakshi's three kaya model where you engage with consciousness itself, the subtle body and the physical body to form the svabhaivika kaya - but that's a whole other story.

Welcome to the Indigenous Traditions sub forum. This is a space for discussing traditional beliefs and practices from old cultures around the world, so we can share and learn from ancient wisdom, myth and method. As ever on this forum please commit to remaining respectful to those cultures and each other - and enjoy the conversation.

Whatdaya think?

Come to think of it, most words that refer to ideas, concepts, mental constructs, interpretations, all that "vaporware" of human cognition, are similarly problematic. We use them as though they are qualitative and quantitative, whereas they are semantic conventions born of contentions. Often they define what is really indefinite, what barely exist, or does't exist at all. With tangible material things the grey zone is a lot smaller, but still... I sit in an office chair. I bought it as an "office chair," but if I put a dining-room chair in my office instead, in that same spot in front of the computer, will it become an office chair? Will it lose its dining-room chair citizenship? Will it become a naturalized citizen of the office? Will it surrender its dining-room allegiances and swear to fight all enemies of the office, foreign and domestic? And will the indigenous residents of the office -- computer, printer, filing cabinet -- see it as an office chair, as "one of us?" And will it forget all those family dinners it was part of in its native dining-room, all its dining-room mates from the same set still gathered around the dining-room table, still indigenous?..

Thought I’d share this on the Babaylan indigenous culture of the Philippines. I have participated in some of these rituals and found them both powerful and fascinating particularly seeing the connections to Indian and Chinese language, physical and spiritual cultivation and healing cultures that are part of it. My wife’s grandmother was a traditional practitioner of this and the capabilities of her lineage appear to have been passed on to the women in my immediate family. The video talks about the indigenous experience in confronting Christianity and Islam as well as the role of gender including transgender there. My guess is that many indigenous practices in other parts of the world went through similar processes where they interacted with/were changed by outside cultures trying to control them. In the modern era the Babaylan culture mostly manifests as indigenous healing practices like manghihilot which are still widespread in the Philippines but there also still exists behind this those currently following the culture and practices of the Babaylan. My understanding this tradition was not only affected by Catholicism and Islam but also more recently by American Protestant missionaries who carved up the Philippines in the 20th century into areas of authority to proselytize and before Catholicism and Islam by Buddhist and Hindu influences. These earlier Indian influences can be seen in the language, traditional scripts, as well as in the healing practices. https:// 1 justjoseph responded to this Quote Edit

Do not bring external feuds into this website or you may be banned. I’m locking this thread - no more discussion on this please.

Ok Just expressing how I feel about it. No worries (as I said before) I will be fine with whatever the admods decide.

If you read the Heart Sutra from the perspective of realization it is as clean and clear as a mountain stream. I don't know of any non-dual expression that is more concise and to the point. Another in the same league (IMO) is the Tsin Tsin Ming by Tseng T'san, not written by the Buddha but rather a Ch'an patriarch much much later. Dharma is being penned by living beings every day, all over the world. It isn't important if the Buddha said it, or if the guy that runs the hardware store down the street said it. There have been countless enlightened beings since the Buddha, all Buddhas themselves. They walk the streets of your town, tip their hats, and frequent the aformentioned hardware store to see their dharma brother. Even their simple kindness and patience is dharma.

Meh...that's like the endless DDJ translation debates. It doesn't change anything. I am a practitioner, not a scholar. But, thanks for the side-note.

Your method for dream work is very similar to the method in my tradition for working with any experience, including dreams. Just as you recreate and embody the dream in your mind and feelings, we do the same with any experience or person that generates reactivity. These can be very recent experiences, alive in us at this very moment. They can be remote memories, dreams, people who generate reactivity, future worries, any life experience. We turn to the experience if it is active in the moment, or recreate whatever it is we want to work with as vividly as possible in body, speech, and mind. We sit with that for as long as it is fresh and alive. While we don't engage with it intellectually, we are often taken to earlier times and other experiences that may have some connection, often a connection we were not aware of. The one thing that may be a bit different is that we are working with the sense of a "me" who is being affected by the experience rather than hosting the experience itself. It's a very subtle but important difference in our paradigm. And we rest in the stillness, silence, and spaciousness. This is referred to as hosting pain identities. . It's a wonderful and powerful practice and one way we avoid the bypassing that can so easily happen to practitioners.

This is a depiction of the Hetu (河圖, “River Map”) and the mythic Longma (龍馬, Dragon-Horse). According to tradition, a dragon-horse emerged from the Yellow River carrying the Hetu diagram on its back — a cosmological pattern representing early foundational principles of taoism.

Part of my method for dream work is to “feel the feeling” after the dream has been interpreted to the best of one’s ability, which I did by recreating the dream in my mind and allowing myself as much as possible to re-enter the feeling created by the dream image. Doing this for decades, slowly getting better at it, allows the full force of a feeling to be experienced over time, and really this is what a fully open emotional channel is. Rumi’s poem captures the work perfectly - The Guest House Rumi Translated by Coleman Barks This being human is a guest house. Every morning a new arrival. A joy, a depression, a meanness, some momentary awareness comes as an unexpected visitor. Welcome and entertain them all! Even if they’re a crowd of sorrows, who violently sweep your house empty of its furniture, still, treat each guest honorably. He may be clearing you out for some new delight. The dark thought, the shame, the malice, meet them at the door laughing, and invite them in. Be grateful for whoever comes, because each has been sent as a guide from beyond.

I dreamed you were going to delete that.

Ohhh I do ! Used to do it professionally . I cook various Asian, Middle Eastern, Persian, Mediterranean ... but never African , for some reason . Maybe I assume I cant get the spices* ? I'm not sure why . yeah, I should give it a go . * a lot of the time they need to be fresh ones . I remember years back, I was being treated to some delicious Persian cooking , I was invited to meals by refugees (post Iran Islamic revolution ) I had been working with , and when they got a home they would invite me to dinner . One time I asked for a recipe ; ''Oh no, you would not be able to make it .'' '' I could give it a try ?'' '' No, you would not have the spices and herbs . '' '' Cant I buy them ? '' '' No, special, rare , cant get them here .'' '' I think I can .'' '' No, not the fresh ones, you need fresh ones .'' ''How did you get them?'' ''Friends grow them , here in their garden .'' ''Then I should be able to buy seed and grow them?'' ''No, you cant get the seed here .'' ''Well then, how did you get them .'' ''We bought them with us .'' ..... ? ... '' Are you saying, when you left Iran , as you told me , disguised as herders , going across the desert , hid some things in your robes , including, one person in your group, a baby , and you thought to bring some seeds with you , on the chance that you would make it, go through various countries , and searches and check points , for months, maybe years on end , finally end somewhere and maybe able to plant them ... so you can make your traditional food ?'' ''Yes . '' Now that is dedication to indigenous cuisine !

Lovely post. Thank you for the clarity of it and sharing your experience. You should stop listening to metal if it stresses you.

Tell me about that, in the place where I work most of my colleagues are from Kerala and Nigeria. That staffroom at lunchtime... Start cooking, mate. Learn from the best. These days I rarely go to restaurants and pretty much cook 80% of what I eat. Food wise, it's all poison out there.

This probably belongs here for reference ; https://www.boandbon.com/

No need for an apology. I very much appreciate both responses. Good stuff here with which to spend some time. 🙏🏼

if you’re told that spaciousness and stillness is what we should be looking for, and you find spaciousness and stillness, then you can think you have arrived at what you believe to be the destination. But what if this as a destination is more like a model of consciousness, and as with all models they fray at the edges, and new comprehension of consciousness dawns. You believe your achievement is absolute, but it might be as primitive one day as the belief that rain gods needed to be sacrificed to to cause rain. You are working within the model you believe in, but in the future that model might have advanced significantly. From my perspective your model is incomplete because it doesn’t create flow in the subtle nadi’s, ie. the side channels and the central channel, it doesn’t activate chakras, it doesn’t build dantians, it seems mind based as opposed to subtle body based. My end point is direct seeing, resting upon one’s subtle body reality, of measurable, ascertainable things, within all levels of the body.

I think the images that are used in dreams are very much based on conditioning and experience, but the plot of dreams is the objective part, I have found that dreams mirror the state of our psyche, subtle body and physical body without our subjective sense of our selves interfering. For instance ten people see a movie about a boat, a few of them have a dream of a boat, and all of those write it off as just the movie affecting them. But in each dream the boat does something different, one boat sinks, one loses its steering, one is moved by waves running parallel to the shore, one is speeding along a river. I see dreams as an incredible resource, but they come without an operators manual, at this point I think some of us are trying to write that manual. I’ve been at it for forty years so far, and I’ve found it to be a fascinating journey into all the levels of me. The objective reality I’m referring to is this objective mirror, the dream plot is delivered to my conscious mind without interference from my conscious mind. This is the most objective I can be about the nature of my own reality, which is what I’ve chosen to examine.

You take a leap of faith assuming that Laitg himself has the capabilities he claims. Put a claim to the test, the classic is ‘appear in my lounge room’ for people who claim special talents. But other tests might be better. Why would anyone just believe a claim without it being substantiated, unless you’re buying a bridge for sale?

The problem is Lairg, you expect others have the same capabilities as you. You ask things of others like "see where the white light goes" or "go back on the timeline" not realising that just because you can do these meta-physical experiments doesn't mean everyone else can, so your method becomes less like a helpful person saying things and more like a guy just saying odd things.

I will try to help here ... he is saying 'truth' ( alone ) is syncategorematic . :)

Down here in Oz we have certain unique dynamics that can assure 'indigenous ' , like, it is pretty certain now and backed up by a lot of research that the indigenous Australian Aboriginal can be certainly termed indigenous as they were the first people here . That's a rare (supported ) claim . The confusion rises with the idea of modern indigenous ; what is accepted as indigenous here : It relies on 3 things ; Proved descent, self identification and community recognition . problematic ; due to lost and stolen generations , some may look obviously Aboriginal but not know ancestry . There is also the issue of % of ancestry ... it doesnt apply ! One ancestor ( going back to whenever ) is sufficient to claim indigeneity. Self identification ... curious , I just need to declare I think I am . It also means no one can say you are , if you dont agree . And community battles or fights or rival claims can make the leaders of a community 'not recognize' (or not issue a certificate of recognition ) to others . So, with myself as an example ; I cant prove descent * , I did not in the past, but am moving towards identifying as indigenous ( due to above * and also the following ) many times Indigenous community have insisted I am Aboriginal , BUT they were not the people that I might have descended from and with the other group, that generation of elders has gone now ( that insisted I was Aboriginal ) and the new people cant seem to recognize it or even are aware of my past work with the old elders . * as far as I can track ; paternal Grandfather came out from England expecting promised land of milk and honey ... not so . Ended up as a cane cutter in Queensland , then went out west to do remote mining . Somehow ended up with some woman and 3 kids ( not sure if they all had the same mother ) . Looking at history .... what were women doing out there ? A great shortage of women for the miners . Chances are she was indigenous . But that was all covered up . Grandfather came to Sydney with three kids and a relative of his had an in law that felt sorry fo them and stepped in to help . This was the woman I thought was my paternal grandmother (until I was in my 30s ! ) It would be funny if it turned out she came from .... https://www.victoriadaly.nt.gov.au/timber-creek/#:~:text=The first inhabitants were the Ngaliwurra and,of whom still live in Timber Creek. [ I did not know of these people when I chose this name ,,,, its a pun in local language about a goanna lizard (gungali ) and the main myth of this valley (Nungli ) ] I still have trouble with it as I still 'visually identify ' people ... nowadays this is a big no-no ; In Australia , there is no "blood quantum" or minimum percentage required to be recognized as Indigenous. The legal and community standard does not measure "how much" descent you have (e.g., 1/4 or 1/16); rather, it focuses on the fact of descent from the inhabitants of Australia prior to European settlement Which means some dude white as snow might be considered , but some guy 'black as' that could not get the records or community acceptance might not be One reason I dont pursue the claim ; all sorts of people are doing it to get special benefits reserved for the indigenous . I have never had to suffer any thing or need that as the system never assumed I was indigenous . The other reason is .... 'special' types of Aboriginals instantly recognize me as 'one' . The ones that do not .... seem to have lost something ( by that I mean they seem more 'westernized' and less 'magical' ) .

My comment was about your comment about dreams not about absolute truth. Dreams are a good tool for self-development because they mirror a deeper truth than the bs we tell ourselves. Regarding absolute truth I just don't believe in that anymore or concern about it. It is my experience that what we believe to be true rooted in deep material or spiritual experience can vanish in a moment. Truth doesn't settle anywhere, ever.

In my mind, indigenous people are those who are rooted by blood to communities that have protected them, more or less, from alienating and spirit-fragmenting modern influences. (This is, perhaps, an overly romantic definition, but whatdaya expect -- I´m not a very indigenous person. )

After doing the haplogroup thing on my parents and seeing the maps that showed the movement across the world of my ancestors from their source in east Africa I found that one could argue that indigenous really only applies to these original people in East Africa. However if you reduce it that far in search of a pure definition you miss out on many interesting and informative steps in evolution of religion, culture, cultivation, healing modalities and philosophy. To me what makes this topic interesting is asking the questions - what was there before what we are familiar with now?, how are these things connected? and what can we learn from them? In my posting on the Babaylan priestesses I tried to make the point that the view of the Philippines just as a country that is predominately Catholic with enclaves of Islam in the south misses a lot of important influences and cultivation phenomena. Some young people in the Philippines are attracted to the Babaylan/hilot culture to find who they are and to overcome their own programming as a colonized people. It has helped them to connect with something through a community mechanism that was there before the modern world that can help them work through their own issues such as trauma, relationships and dealing with gender identity issues. My own interaction as a cultural outsider meeting with it in my own family has created growth for me including getting me to go beyond the thinking sense that is so predominate in modern culture (a work in progress, lol) and to better see how people are affected by the colonial mindset. It also has given me a perspective on what lineage transmission is in an esoteric sense that not many outsiders get to directly experience.

Many are, many aren't. If you start a dream journal you will realize that. You can deny your true feelings to yourself and your unconscious will show you otherwise, just like you can deny your attraction or aversion towards someone and your body will show you otherwise.

I am wondering where the horse got them cool sneakers for his front feet from .

Hi Tommy, I would say whatever "knowledge" I might have, is built with bricks of silence. So, empty space indeed. Some basic intellectual understanding of core teachings of the Buddha has been helpful. But, in the end, our karma is unwound through silent practice, in my case, looking at the question "What am I?" You have described a very pernicious trick the ego does. The idea of a self, the ego, has only two jobs. 1. To try and be happy in a world where lasting happiness is impossible. 2. To not die. In order to accomplish 2, it will stop at nothing. That's why we have to let go of absolutely everything. Nothing remains, our true nature shines brightly. Or something like that. I don't know. Practice and see what happens. And, when something unshakeable appears, help others to see that too. We all "know" more than we think. Every human being on this planet has innate Buddha Nature. Yet, most of us, including me, are trapped in mind prison created by thoughts. Thanks for your kind reply. _/|\_

This is typical Chūnibyō syndrome stuff. Many of the threads where this is mentioned were moved to the staff eyes only section, and can no longer be found via google. Here are a few examples, but these are pretty tame comparatively. https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/50649-brain-cleansing-in-the-internal-arts/?do=findComment&comment=922530 "Thats why for example, I could watch 20k+ 1000hz high quality movies, or remember past lives, or visualize a whole city projection." https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/50381-levitation-and-possibly-flight/?do=findComment&comment=922713 Question: As far as delusions go, you claim to have a harem of goddesses, shoot eye lasers, travel faster than the speed of light, open portals to other worlds to fight ancient 100,000 Naga demons, etc. Answer: "Those aint delusions, these are tiny percentage of extracts from things I have personally encountered on other planes. I have met and seen things you cannot even phantom." https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/50710-questions-to-master/?do=findComment&comment=924660 "I had brain implants and other stuff." https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/50755-divine-truths-from-master/?do=findComment&comment=926199 "I can easily capture your soul after it leaves the body, and put it inside the stone in my magic underground basement lab. You will be my guest for next 1000 years, and mb you will also learn something, but I will never let you back into "free" life. I might allow you to reincarnate in some of my lab rats." https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/50720-what-is-taoism/?do=findComment&comment=926138 "Having third Eye open I can see things that normal humans never can imagine, like a tentacle larvae crawling over an energy egg shaped field which is human. https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/49762-request-access-to-private-gender-subforums/?tab=comments#comment-926426 I am sitting in mountains and meditating while having multiple clones, and one of the clones is dreaming, and he goes internet from dreamworld without any "new age" devices like computer or phone. Old school is best school. " https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/50781-western-mopai-censorship-for-sean/?do=findComment&comment=926903 "I have passed through several galaxies in the matter of seconds, so yeah, I was travelling at a much higher speed than Light." https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/50720-what-is-taoism/?do=findComment&comment=926577 "Because to go through 1 million years of my own memories of past lives it is quite a work to do unlike googling baidu to find divine truths. When I will be 2000 times stronger than I am now, I may commit myself to this research." https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/50781-western-mopai-censorship-for-sean/?do=findComment&comment=926930 "I was never hurt by people making fun of my levitation ... or portal opening ability. I have had too much of these experiences to be able to doubt it or care about someone else opinion on the topic."

The mod team are a group of volunteers (that is ordinary members) whose role is to ensure that this site is a place where any member can post happily and truthfully. There are a number of rules that have been introduced over the years with the purpose of keeping the peace. These have been adopted progressively based on experience. Each report or instance of posting is considered by the mod team when it arises. We don’t issue general amnesties or permissions as we deal with each instance as it arises. The site is well run and successful and we want to keep it that way while being as permissive as possible. However if someone pushes at the general wish for mutual respect and so on they may well be suspended or banned. This would include introducing external battles and feuds onto the DaoBums site.

@Cobie I share your preference for a symbol that feels peaceful rather than fiery in an angry way. To my thinking, balanced fire has many positive qualities and these are the ones our banner should emphasize -- vibrancy, warmth, playfulness, forward motion, willingness to take necessary action. Political conflict and social media squabbles can also be fiery, but most of us will agree we´ve had enough of that. This said, I think the logo really does need to be a horse. The point of changing the banner every year around this time has always been to reflect the energy of the coming year according to Chinese astrology.

I have attempted to set up the sub forum 'Indigenous Traditions' but have hit some technical difficulties (based around I don't know what I'm doing). I have asked for help. Please remain calm during this period of transition, remain in your homes, drink plenty of water and breathe deeply.

This place is pretty cool. There is another forum I hop into once in a while. They have different streams of Buddhism, and basically, people aren't allowed to troll other groups in their own forum. For instance, the post above wouldn't be allowed, because this is the Buddhism forum. It's basically trolling. But, I don't think we should be so soft as to not brook a little disagreement. I have no response to the post, as it's gibberish from a Buddhist perspective. But, it's nice that this hasn't turned into a flame war. _/|\_ Keith

Yes, many modern people do not realize that is Qigong(氣功).

Some prefer a long sword because of its reach . But they are more difficult to draw. and often a quick draw is essential. What to do? . There is the dignified draw with the assistant helping by pulling off the sheath for you, or even running off with it in hand, to be quicker. But would that really do in a fast situation? And what if you don't have an assistant , how you gonna draw that huge long sword out of its sheath and be instantly ready ?

This is actually a very important point you make, Bob... thanks. Part of what is realized and then forever available to be seen is precisely this breakdown of our idea about time happening along some sort of continuum.

After having learned that altough Nigerians are the most genetically propense population to develop Alzheimers disease and however don't get it much due to having a traditional diet very rich in fiber my curiosity increased regarding African diets. Don't watch this if you're fasting...or trying to.

Yes, but one can have one hell of an argument! DaoBums for the win!

Anonymous internet intercourse is always tricky... don't ya think?

I'd love to have that job. Crocolepardoppotomizing them nine to five. There used to be laws of this kind in every culture. Eyeglasses makers guilds in Florence and Venice expelled their members with a lifelong ban on the profession if they were caught making lenses out of glass instead of quartz crystals (which actually helped treat eye disorders instead of merely serving as crutches for the eyes.) Today they're plastic...

My take on this is, first there are different types of dreams ; what you call the luminous dream ( great name ) seems the 'highest' . I have had them and a friend described one well to me ; it had a certain quality of light , she felt transformed afterwards . It was about her going out into the garden and seeing a peacock there , in full display , colors , light, and other qualities .... I put her onto the 'Peacock Angel ' https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tawûsî_Melek I think they are communications with our 'higher aspects' / tutelary spirits / Guardian Angel / 'Super-consciousness' . Normally when awake, they most often communicate subtly into the unconscious and we get communication to the consciousness via symbolism . When we are asleep and this is happening .. and we are getting a significant 'download' we have a 'luminous dream ' . The opposite 'lower forces ' give us the opposite type of dreams , as you describe ; like lower 'astral' all sorts of gumbo-jumbo mixed up together and flash backs . Then there is another type that you describe , where 'non-local' aspects of consciousness come into play . DR Wilson Van Dusen ( the 'Evidence of spirits in madness ' guy , the one that worked in the psychiatric institution and di clinical trial on this ) when talking about patients 'hallucinations ' / ' possessing spirits ' observed and noted the good qualities of the 'higher hallucinations' (although rarer ) and the same with the 'lower order hallucinations ' and also noted ; '' The higher ones seem more like Jung's 'Archetypes' , while the lower ones seem more like Freud's 'Id ' .

Sadly, that's what happened with all my office chairs -- each new one eliminated its predecessor. There's never been enough room for two office chairs. My only redemption lies in the fact that nearly thirty years ago I gave an old office chair to a friend who needed one, and that old chair was already a very old chair when I got it from a thrift store -- but built like a tank, they don't make them like that anymore, haven't in ages. Recently that friend mentioned to me he still has it. To be honest, I miss that chair... have missed it through a succession of uncomfortable and/or flimsy and/or ugly Johnny-come-latelies that followed. I misunderstood it back then, back when I was one of the people who believe that "new" means "better." But now I know. The staying power of authenticity...

What made me seriously think about it was once listening to this englishman born and bread in England but with a Russian mother speaking of his experience while visiting Russia. He never felt identified with English culture but while in Russia altough sometimes feeling literally smashed by the cold he felt simultaneouslly extremelly happy to be amongst his people, those who really understood him 🙂

"things" is the catch, for there is that which is not an impermanet thing, the human mind is a thing (with computer like aspects) that can not know no-thing no mater how hard it trys per every which way. Btw very few of us are ready or willing to give up our particualr mind which is our particualr identity. (which would entail dangers if not done via Spirit)

My cousin has compiled the family tree (on my father's side through which we are cousins). That project of his spanned years. It so happened that he used to have access to a very complete and detailed genealogical database of his country that is classified, which made it possible for him to dig up information a regular genealogy buff would never find. He was able to trace our fist known progenitors to the 11th century Sweden. From there, three streams of ancestors eventually dispersed over three continents. Some converged centuries later, some left their places of origin forever -- e.g. there was no one left in Sweden since the 14th century. But now a distant relative is in Sweden all over again, his parents migrated there, he was born there... I wonder if he qualifies as indigenous now?..

God wills, Man dreams, The Work is born. (Fernando Pessoa) That's pretty much what I feel about this one. Gamaliel comes to mind as well. Anyway, thank you moderation team for the sub-forum.

Here's a copyright free image that's not bad....