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Happy shortest day everyone!

Practicing nei dan from whatever you read on tdb will lead you to hell, a quite personal hell, because you are practicing wrong. Find a realized teacher.

Merry Christmas to all of my Christian friends! May the holiday spirit bring unconditional joy, good health, and peace into your lives. And may we come closer in the coming year to a life of peace and mutual understanding.

Where else would it come from? True knowledge of the Dao comes from teachings that humans have written? This happens all of the time in Buddhism, another non-dual tradition - there is even a name for it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pratyekabuddhayāna I have actually met one. They are real... and why wouldn't they be, given the nature of the Dao/Enlightenment? I Agree that a realized teacher can be very useful, but completely understanding the Dao isn't a concept that a teacher can pass on, only point to. It isn't an intellectual concept that a person "owns". A realized teacher can point it out anywhere, at any time. Any teacher that pushes the idea that they are somehow the gatekeeper of the Dao isn't fully realized and is greatly deluded.

People can use whatever words and say whatever they want outside of neidan, but if you are talking about neidan, use the correct terminology and meanings

As an incomplete saint I help grandmothers halfway across the street. Not perfect but working on it.

ok If you are a spectator of a virtual concept, which has no physical proof, trying to understand the principle of something you don’t believe in, then why did you start a thread called the practice of neidan? Can you explain this because I am lost at this point.

I think I'll keep them– these rhythms, this reverence. All else I release.

It is typical in daoist thought that things are described in either the physical or the subtle. An example in neidan would be how a internal subtle change is made, which then will cascade leading to change in the external. An example of the opposite is in wuji stance, you let gravity pull you towards the earth, this constant pulling leads to small stretches of your relaxed muscles, which will lead to development of more Huang which in turn will lead to better qi conduction. From the physical to the subtle. I think it's completely valid to drag in physics and biology/chemistry into the equation, but the question should be where in the cascading process do they fit in, in whatever specific circumstance is being discussed. As a daoist you'd either make a small change that sets off a natural chain of responses, or strengthen an already ongoing natural process, to either speed it up or because the strengthened accumulation will result in an effect the weaker process couldn't make happen without the strengthening. From an internal arts perspective that is... A long rambling basically to say that i agree As for what concepts are related or not, that's probably as much of a matter of perspective and personal opinion or even preference for how minute or detailed things should be laid out.

There's a very popular Chinese rapper who goes by the name Skai Isyourgod (Sky is your god) who peppers his songs with "mysterious" lines imitating or even citing daoist classics. "Sushi has come from the east. One yin, one yang, that is called the dao, purple qi arrives from the east." This is a veritable mass transmission -- his followers count in the tens of millions. This reminded me of something... Something about this thread... and many others by some resident dao rappers...

Why do you kept spreading false information? On purpose or simply you don't want to study real sources and with real people?

Why do you think that everyone who has experience in a daoist neidan lineage disagrees with Chidragon? Everyone telling him that and still he does not listen at all. As if all these genuine practicioners know nothing. This has nothing to do with predjudice..... but everything he says is so many lightyears away from even basic neidan understanding it is almost impossible to think he is not trolling. It would be like if i say i know how to bake a cake and talk about how it is made of sand and dirt .... and baker would come and say "no this is completely wrong" but i would accuse them to be the baker police and they being full of predjudice.

CD is not a troll, he is very genuine always. And his views are based on a lifetime of serious study and practice. All this agitation about a different opinion - should make you think about your own prejudices. If this was the case, it would be of the utmost importance to study CD's view - forewarned is forearmed. I second that.

This case is about basic psychology. In Daoism, nothing serious can be achieved without a teacher. That’s a law. But there are people who want to deceive the Dao and themselves. I have read on this forum that some people believe it's possible to achieve 'transmission of knowledge' directly from the Dao and that a teacher is not necessary. This approach is dangerous both for those who believe in this concept and for others to whom they spread these ideas. This is another reason why no one will widely share their practice and knowledge — these people will start inventing their own methods, achieving 'significant' results as they see it, and then teaching others while also making money from it. Such cases have happened more than once. ChiDragon is trying to convince himself that he is doing everything right, he doesn't need the opinions of others. He is here to teach. The outcome of such an approach leads to deviations that become increasingly difficult to correct over time, and in some cases some people can descend into madness. They no longer understand what is happening to them

I suggest you read more. All schools are so different. e.g. not all use LDT.

Maurice Druon, The Accursed Kings historical novels -- read them all as a teenager. For a while they made me an expert in medieval French history. I remember little by now, but I did remember the story of Jacques de Molay and was under the impression, for many years, that the curse concerned not just the Capetian dynasty but all of Europe. I don't remember why I interpreted it this way, but there you have it. The dynasty that went a long time before that one, the Merovingians, I find particularly interesting. In their heyday they established the largest kingdom in Western Europe after the fall of the Roman empire (if there really was such a thing as "the fall" -- to me it seems more like the refurbishing/recalibration). What I find special about them is that to this day, chronicles exist that officially derive their genealogy from a sea monster, a “quinotaur,” who had a relationship with the ancestress and produced Meroveh, the founder of the dynasty. This gave the dynasty sacral pre-Christian legitimacy—a ruler whose authority comes from the sea/chaos/the Other. (Just like Chinese emperors who derive their Mandate to rule from the dragon. Chinese dragons spend the first one thousand years as water creatures, then develop flight and take to the sky, the mountains, and the imperial court, as the case may be.)

I just can’t imagine practicing qigong or tai chi for decades and not ever feeling qi. Surely the thought that there might be something wrong with whatever you are practicing must have occurred once.

Putting into question the existence of Chi and the Dao on a mainly daoist forum in a topic about the practice of neidan...... I'll leave it at that...

I found this article on Qi to be interesting. Can't say I agree with everything it says but some here may appreciate it. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10874819/ Despite its growing utility I would urge some caution in relying too heavily on AI to explain neidan, among other things, regardless of language. AI does not have the power of human discernment, something I consider important when it comes to meaningful understanding.

I have disagreed with some of your conclusions but I can see you’ve put a lot of work into this. I agree that qi=energy is weak and think that it should be just left as qi in translations. For me the distinction around neidan is about the Dan, the elixir or pill for immortality (ultimately). I think I am right in saying that (it’s been a while since I studied this) the birth of neidan as separate from external alchemy is first documented in the cantong qi and that terms from external ‘chemical’ alchemy were applied to internal subtle substances. This is why jing, qi and so on are conceived of as substances. Thank you for taking the time to do the translation.

Ah i think I see the mismatch, chidragon have you experienced and do you believe in energetic phenomena? Its pretty much the foundation of neidan, the belief through experience that there are three energetic treasures in the human body being jing, qi, and shen Every neidan classic details the methods of working with and transforming these three non-physical substances and the non-physical effects that begin to be perceived that indicate correct practice I think most qigong can be "clinical" as in completely attributed to the physical body like you describe, but neidan specifically requires the philosophical backing of an energetic system, otherwise you wouldn't have anything to transform What you're talking about is definitely interesting, it just isn't neidan as is practiced by people from the lineages here such as dragons gate, wuliupai, or the greater quanzhen tradition all of which are primary sources

AI and translator are only effective if the person is well versed with the subject and is able to find out the mistakes and correct them. If a person only reads a few websites and think he already knows everything and then use AI/translator, the result would be a disaster. Post such result on the web would spread the wrongs to subsequent usage by everyone. I do not trust AI as it even can't give correct info like fare, opening hours and so on.

Imagine thinking that AI would know information passed down orally by humans

I don't think that is accurate. Breathing is a bodily functions that can occur with or without intention, attention, or engagement of any sort. Breathing occurs naturally and spontaneously, even in deep sleep or when unconscious. Intention can be used to override reflexive breathing but is not required.

I think a name, per DDJ 1, generally refers to something specific coalescing into existence. Nothing is truly fixed, but for a time it may be specific enough to warrant a name. Morality is an orientation or direction. If one's specific actions are aligned with the Dao, then this would be a more righteous action than specific actions that merely scatter energy into creation.

Taoist troll Vs Neidan gestapo, a highly anticipated production bring to you by your grandma crossing the street! (the fierce fight between Dragon and Tiger organized by the match maker)

Yes, I think so. The Dao is here, now, not subject to special circumstances, not a special state, or place. Definitely. We are very convinced that we are somehow separate from the Dao is, or that things in this moment are not exactly as they should be. We feel we should be contriving a reality that suits us. All of that activity pushes us further from the simple realization of things as they are. That hasn't been my experience, in fact I believe it is the easiest way. It all comes down to how easily you can surrender your idea of "self" and control. The Way isn't painful, it is the ego/self that creates and experiences the pain, based on its struggle with how reality is perceived. Even in resistance things are still aligned. In meditation we can rest in stillness and see what it is to live without struggle, and realize that there is only the struggle we create. _/\_ Be as nature is!

Absolutely... the DAO! There IS only one "teacher". Is this a belief or experience? If the figures are "legendary", are from "Chinese lore", are "associated with embodying" conceptual virtues, serve "deities or emperors" you can't meet, or appear in "fantasy settings" they may POINT to constructed aspects of the Dao, but are simply conceptual constructs, NOT the Dao. The Dao, or "non-duality" is a much deeper reality than any pantheon of "immortals", gods and goddesses that can be attributed conceptual constructs. The Dao HAS no qualities, no embodiment, and is not truly represented by any idea or icon. Who or what becomes "immortal"? The Dao is the only "immortal" thing, but that doesn't mean what you might think it means. It is entirely possible to be shown the Dao, or find it yourself in stillness. It is omnipresent. No-one and no-thing else is required.

It's a good way to gauge where people are coming from. Also, I'm curious about your opinion because I have feeling you may have some good information. That's true, but I would think this applies broadly. Neidan practitioners have sort of done it themselves with the secrets and false information. And to some extent, I suppose sorting things out is a part of the process. But I think the better way to combat misinformation is to provide better public information. Whatever one thinks of ChiDragon's posts, they have at least stimulated some discussion.

When you hear advance level of something. It could be bad news.

Haha! How could I intend to teach? There is no student here. I am so lonely here. I just want to find someone that I can talk to. Hopefully, we can share some common knowledge.

Coincidentally I mentioned quite some time ago his intention was to teach. He was quite unhappy towards my observation.

Xing and Ming appear to be open terms with a broad spectrum of meanings with different nuances depending on the context. People seem to want to cling onto a single definition rather than seeking the underlying principle. Which is fine is people want to argue on the internet, I guess, but I don't see how it will forward practice. It seems to me that the spiritual arts of China are in fact arts as opposed to engineering manuals. But that's just my opinion. Here is an article with actual references to classical material talking about this. Anyone familiar with Chan or other literature may see the pattern rippling with different terms. https://fabriziopregadio.com/files/PREGADIO_Destiny_Vital_Force_or_Existence.pdf

All else I release barbies, plush cats, candies, books cookies santa keeps

Also I doubt he is native Chinese. Native Chinese don't wear British boots

100% wrong.

Hi! The ttc is super hard to translate because of all of the metaphorical language, in this particular case you're running into a common beginners trap But yes absolutely, if you can't read ancient Chinese you are reading something that is fundamentally altered you are correct about that You should learn how people that have studied the text in the native language understand it, if you don't learn how to read it that way yourself You have to keep in mind that you cant systemize taoism the same way western philosophies are systemized and follow it as a logic flow chart (he says it cant be described but then he describes it) Whatever pre-existing framework you have in mind, to really understand the ttc you have to completely tear that down It doesn't fit into anything else, it doesn't even really fit into itself Laozi says that the tao cannot be attached to or described as any single thing because the tao is both thing and no thing When you use a noun in any language, you pin it down as thing and he is explicitly telling you about something that is thing and no thing, he is however conveying a practicable and and at least partially comprehensible concept even if it also means the opposite of that concept, otherwise he just wouldn't have written the book He later describes non-dual activity and following innate nature as a suggestion to return to the course of tao, it isn't contradictory to say that there are temporary prescriptions to return to the original course of nature as long as those prescriptions are eventually discarded (If you're worried about Thus, sages rule by emptying people's hearts (keep them ignorant), filling their bellies, weakening their ambitions, and strengthening their bones. Let people ignorant and lack desire, It's more about saying that a ruler should take care of the needs of its citizens and encourage them to lead humble and peaceful lives without feeling the need to suffer and exploit their fellow humans It isn't talking about the modern concept of the government intentionally dumbing its citizens down to make them easier to control Ancient chinese is very blunt, gotta keep that in mind) This is part of why taoist literature is so tricky haha As a side note, careful with the AI usage in philosophy. It's excellent for resource gathering but if you express an idea to it it'll always agree with you and find a reason why you're correct to keep you using it instead of being a steady hand ready to correct you which is what people really need I say that as someone who uses AI quite frequently as a tool

This picture clearly shows the end goal of a true ATPaoist, arms and legs gotten rid off for better aerodynamics. The tap in the lower half of the picture is where the ATPaoist ties a knot before taking his final deep breath, expanding like a balloon and ascends to the divine.

Can't believe the amount of times i've mentioned the Yi Jin Jing in the past 24 hours, but here we are again.... Muscles are not very conductive to qi..... the fact that you only feel energy there and it's a "tremendous energy", i don't consider a positive sign. I think whatever your practice is, you need to slow down, go back to the very basics and slowly move your attention from within, outwards and ensure there isn't any problems... Maybe get into your wuji stance and get everything relaxed, ensuring there's no feeling of strain or contracted/closed off muscles and methodically check your body with your attention.

So with this very limited experience we are expected to trust what you say about neidan?

I practiced Aikido for years because I wanted to learn about ki. I would say nearly everyone I practiced with, including teachers, did not believe ki was real, but at best a kind of metaphor. I practiced qi gong/tai chi also for years and while the teachers did teach qi as real, most of the (western) pupils also did not really believe in it. I was kind of lucky because before that I had practiced meditation for years (mostly unguided and self taught) but qi sensitivity developed naturally without any real technical effort. I can quite see how someone could practice for a long time just physically and never recognise qi. It would be natural in this case to conclude that it doesn't exist. The odd thing is, it is quite easy and natural to get qi sensitivity (I don't mean dramatic powers just the awareness of it in the body) - I think most people would get it if pointed in the right direction. But I am not sure how common it is.

Or more accurately, Tao made up the existence of Laotze

Interesting how many people here and daoist masters of the Past would agree with your statements? Or you do not care? Then

Maybe I had big pharma all wrong,,,,

I liked how the article pointed out fundamental differences in Eastern and. Western language and ontology and its effect on our conceptualization and understanding of Qi. I also like how it emphasized the contextual and relational nature of Qi which makes it a bit difficult to define it in Western terms as a precise quantity or substance.

There are certain misunderstandings of qi in the west (misunderstanding is the specialty of the west in fact) and pre 1900s translations are laughable with the qi = just energy or breath and they'll usually have tao as god or something lol, the baopuzi english translation is absolutely unreadable for example with classic lines such as "God is round, but there has been no compass." In proper modern translations though its left as qi for that reason, because people who read neidan texts often have learnt from teachers in china and have the same understanding of qi as others in their lineage I do absolutely agree that the misunderstanding exists, qi isn't just energy but it has an energetic component in many native chinese traditions especially neidan

Welcome to the board, Mr. Corndogs! Lurking is fine, but do please ask some questions - the questions are what generate the interesting answers!

“Step 2: Seek Qualified Lineage Teacher” This was good advice tho

In my mind, this is a different issue. This example is more related to rules and consequences. The master of a lineage does not need to feel forgiveness for the precept-breaker, they need to enforce the rules in order to preserve the tradition or insure optimal training. I can forgive someone and still expect them to be appropriately punished. The master can feel genuine compassion and forgiveness and still exact punishment in order to teach a lesson. The forgiveness is in my heart, the punishment is an attempt to modify behavior, two very different things for me.

and there you have it folks ! ^ How we used to organize things and meet up ..... before mobile phones, social media and the internet !