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My 2025 started off rough, by spring I attempted a move. Didn't work out. Late summer, tried another move, didn't go as planned, yet, worked out in other ways. Fall has been good. Beginning this winter much better than a year ago. Reflecting on 2025, personally,,, new found direction. Looking at 2026, looking forward. Knowing, things continue to change. I learned a new way to offer Cheers, salut, etc And to all ya'lls bums, I raise my glass sans clinking Formidable!!

Happy New Year to you Luke, and to the rest of you Bums. May 2026 bring out the best in us!

After many years of practice, the slow spiraling movements of tai chi become part of one´s personality; the habit of deep diaphramatic breathing results in a remarkable steady calm. No doubt this explains why Dao Bums forum members are unfailingly peaceful, remarkably free from the pugilistic impulses that characterize interaction in other corners of the intrawebs. Our tendency towards good cheer and amiability was especially apparent in that area of the site, now defunct, known as "Current Events." Did we always agree with one another? We did not. But even when we found ourselves at extreme idiological odds, we never failed to recognize the humanity and basic good will of our fellows. On that rare occasion when a post resulted in passing annoyance, we looked inward: what unresolved issue within us was responsible for this prick of discontent? Such is the way of the refined heart. And so, with all the gratitude and warm fuzzies I can muster, I raise my glass to you my fellow Bums. May you saunter on into the expanse of the desert or the misty mountains or the bathroom down the hall, wherever your path may lead. Happy New Year!!! LL

Moderator Note: In the interest of intelligibility and inclusivity we would like members to provide translations or at minimum transliterations of posts that include words or text in Chinese characters. This will give posts a wider reach and promote more wide ranging discussion. Thanks. A.

Bah, there’s already a hundred “illuminated translations” out there. Going forward I am happy to represent the quale grokker community.

I would suggest some meditation on what it actually means before translating. For instance why is the invisible that which produces heaven and earth. What is heaven, what earth and so on. Otherwise you are working in the dark so to speak.

PS - some constructive criticism. If you are interested in an English translation that people can comprehend, that helps them understand the original, I would not use the words grok or quale. Only elderly science fiction fans would know the meaning of grok and quale is not a word in common usage.

Two men visit an abbot at a monastery at different times. The first man said, “I’m thinking of moving to this town. What is it like?” The abbot asked, “What was it like in your old town?” The first man responded, “It was terrible. Everyone was full of hate. I did not like it there.” The abbot said, “This town is very much the same. I do not think you should move here.” The first man left and the second man came in. The second man said, “I’m thinking of moving to this town. What is it like?” The abbot asked, “What was your old town like?” The second man responded, “It was wonderful. Everyone was nice and friendly. I was happy. Now, I just wanted a change of scenery.” The abbot said, “This town is very much the same. I think you will like it here.”

Fire from the Heavenly Stem hits the stable where the Horse has been chomping at the bit for 60 years. The Horse jumps out of the burning gate and takes off galloping, mane fiery, tail ablaze. It never fails to leave its hoof prints on the world's politics, economy, and landscape. Here are some of them: 1846 Mexican–American War begins, reshaping the future borders of the U.S. Peasant uprising in Galicia, future Ukraine, engineered by the occupying Austrian empire against the local Polish nobility. 1906 San Francisco earthquake and fire, one of the worst urban disasters in U.S. history. Mount Vesuvius eruption in Italy, a major disaster affecting Naples and surrounding regions. 1966 Cultural Revolution begins in China, profoundly reshaping society and politics. Flooding in Italy destroys a lot of cultural heritage in Florence and Venice. A major escalation in the Vietnam war. 2026 -- ? Of course there were good things happening too. The type of qi known as the Fire Horse can be quite transformative and, under the right circumstances and given the right treatment, energizing, illuminating, and magnificent. But it's the most volatile kind of them all, unpredictable and not easily governable. Let's hope no pale riders manage to mount it.

This may not be a symptom of progress. When the mind is truly quiet and open, not grasping, there are qualities that arise spontaneously - warmth, joy, compassion, and creativity, and there is some sense that anything satisfies. The absence of these energetic manifestations of the base is an indication that something is blocking our progress. Often it is an aberrant view such as nihilism or an unbalanced practice, prioritizing the mental over the physical and emotional, for example. Another common cause of this sort of deviation is bypassing, neglecting to bring our real life challenges onto the cushion, or neglecting to bring our practice into life's activities, in a way that supports genuine transformation. Something to consider if you feel like there is something lacking in your life or your practice.

Since this was posted in the Buddhist sub, here is a Zen story for this kind of condition, which ZM Seung Sahn turned into a kong an (koan): The Buddha only taught two things: Dukkha and the end of Dukkha. Dukkha is the dissatisfaction of not getting enough of the things we want, and too much of the things we don't. Getting one's emotions under control is good, but another step is needed. As Oldbob mentioned, desire can be a useful energy. In Zen terms, the desire to wake up our to our true selves keeps us on the path. And then, when we see that, we help others to do the same. To me, that is the ultimate teaching of the Buddha's enlightenment. He didn't just sit there with the knowledge of his true self. He shared it with the world. _/|\_ Keith

你真是太懂我了！Nǐ zhēnshi tài dǒng wǒle! შენ ჩემს აზრებს კითხულობ! Shen chems azrebs k’itkhulob! Ты прочёл мои мысли! Ty prochyol moyi mysli! You have read my thoughts! /ju hæv rɛd maɪ θɔts/ The second line of the above is in Georgian. I don't know the language but I do know the alphabet. Me and my girlfriends at school learned it from a Georgian classmate circa the 6th grade in order to exchange coded messages during lessons by transliterating them into that alphabet. The motives were strictly pragmatic -- so that classmates who passed little pieces of paper with messages along, or the teachers should they intercept them, wouldn't be able to read them. Now I wonder... what purpose does it serve to use a writing system here guaranteed to not be understood by nearly everyone on the forum. Just curious.

The subforum is currently in Beta and is now open. Please use responsibly! Feel free to offer suggestions. Everything is open to discussion.

Probably, but it may be hard to find. Even neigong the real deal is something that is mostly taught in private, one on one, for all kinds of reasons. E.g. "pearls before the swine" is avoided, "teacher tell all, go hungry" is another consideration, persecution of taoists that repeated many times throughout history (communists didn't invent it, emperors did long before them) and what not. The culture has always been big on "family secrets," "secret skills," "secret manuals," "secret formulas,' "secret transmissions" and so on, from neidan to porcelain to herbal formulas to martial styles, it was more common than not to not tell everything, and often tell nothing outside the family or school. This is not just history, this is also true in our time. Even though a lot of Chinese movies and Jin Yong's novels are centered around the pursuit of such secrets , all of it has a real-life cultural counterpart. If the private forum materializes, I might tell a story or two... can't share in a public space, so for now they are secret.

The CPC is known to have insisted on the "out with the old, in with the new" approach most decisively for decades. Traditional arts and sciences were condemned, taoist temples burned to the ground, practitioners publicly humiliated, sent to "reeducation camps" and so on. The legacy lingers -- although later they took a somewhat different stance and the pendulum started moving toward "restoration." They realized that all those things they used to condemn can be turned into tourist attractions and marketable trinkets. So it's not unusual to encounter views in people influenced by this sort of education that glorify things traditional at the cost of the tradition itself, by reformulating it in "modern" quasi-scientific terms. Instead of forbidding all things cultivation they try to give them Western style respectability. This is a very simplified picture of course...

Do you yourself understand it? How about this: Wu Wei arises is the understanding that enlightenment and the world of separateness occupy the same space, though one of them is a "deeper" reality. To a person who experiences the world as a "self", there is a world of separate objects, and a "self" with agency that interacts with them. From the experience of enlightened mind it is obvious that the separateness is a delusion, and that the unity of things takes care of itself. The way this appears is from the same perspective, but with two ways of seeing - there is still the appearance of a body that interacts with the world, but from the enlightened perspective this action is not the product of volition but the action of reality itself acting as a wholeness. No amount of reading or pouring over translations and commentaries will ever yield an understanding of the non-dual nature of reality, of which Wu Wei is only a single intellectual perspective. The broader realization isn't an intellectual understanding, and the reality of it will never match an intellectual idea about its nature. The only path to understanding Wu Wei is in having it become your permanent experience through realization.

Your entire post above is gold. And there are layers of understanding and realization, just as there are relative and absolute truth. Reading and studying alone, even a scripture as perfect as Daodejing, can only take us so far. The mind, its activity, and its contents can only take us so far. We must make room for practice, for simply being, to appreciate the wisdom hiding behind the words. And we must be patient and kind with ourselves and each other if we want to discover something new together. Although, if we trust the old masters, an occasional swift kick in the arse or thwack on the shoulder with the keisaku can be helpful too.

Sorry, but I think that is too restrictive a definition of wu wei. What if I step on a toad as I'm saving a drowning animal? I'm playing with you a little here. Forgive me.

Errrmmmm ... yes you are ( you just dont realize it )

I’ve been through the desert on a horse with no name It felt good to be out of the rain In the desert you can remember your name ‘Cause there ain’t no one for to give you no pain

Same in finnish: taivas. I once said to my neighbor in broken finnish something like "the sky is beautiful" and he got this weird look on his face. afterwards, i figured he probably thought I was talking about heaven.

In Portuguese the word for sky is ceu and the word for Heaven, Ceu. Just for interest.

Skål, God bless and thank you! The journey continues! '

The characters and translation used by CD are (my highlights and layout): Classical did not use commas (these were inserted by CD). To define a term, they put e.g. 也者 between noun and definition. 無 used as a noun, only had the meaning of 'nothing(ness)'. 有 used as a noun had the meanings: existence; posession, having. "Tao at/as" is not in the characters (it was inserted by CD). Good practice is to put [square brackets] around what you insert into a translation.

The characters here are: Twice the translator had to chose a meaning for 道 . The listing for 道 in Kroll: ~~~<>~~~ dao4 ~~~<>~~~ 1. way that leads somewhere, road, route, pathway, passage. 2. the Way; as image suggesting how things actually exist, fundamental reality, a constant Way in which the diverse ways of living and relating are essentially balanced and whole. a. conceptual term used by all schools of thought, with same root metaphor but varying connotations: Confucian ‘Way’ incl. norms of social responsibility and personal conduct exemplified by ideal worthies such as King Wen of the Zhou, the Duke of Zhou, etc.; Dao. ‘Way’ points to absolute and ineffable reality behind flux and modalities of the world, and advisability of taking it as model; Budd. ‘Way’ incl. possibility of release from the round-of-birth-and-death (samsara) and recognition of contingent and impermanent nature of human existence. b. 道士 dao4 shi4 gentleman of the Way, exemplar of the Confucian ‘Way’; also, expert in the ‘Way’, specialist in occult or mantic practices, syn. 方士 fang4 shi4; also (med.), Daoist adept, usu. associated with an organised Dao. community (see 5a below), priest. N.B. Contrast these with (med) 道人 dao4 ren2, man of religion, a Budd. monk (not Dao.). 3. way of doing something, course of action, method, proper procedure, practice; e.g. 所以 求 之 之 道 suo3 yi3 qiu2 zhi1 zhi0 dao4, the means by which one seeks it; 道場 dao4 chang2, place of practice, arena of the Way, altar, Budd. or Dao. chapel. a. guiding road, rule of conduct, principle, guidelines. b. doctrine, tenets, dicta; teachings. c. (Budd.) the Buddha-path, path to enlightenment. 4. skill or art of a particular kind, specialisation. 5. ideas and teachings esp. associated with the texts Zhuangzi and Laozi (or Daodejing); e.g. 道家 dao4 jia1, lineage of the Way, bibliographic category ref. to these and related texts, often defined as ‘philosophical Daoism’ in contrast to next. a. practices esp. associated with movements and texts relating to masters of self-cultivation, pursuit of immortality, and various organised religious communities, esp. those ultimately deriving from the Way of the Celestial Masters (tiashidao 天 師 道 [tian1 shi1 dao4]) founded in mid-2nd-c. CE; e.g. (med.) 道教 dao4 jiao4, teaching of the Way, from early 5th-c. CE a term assoc. with groups and texts just described, often defined now as ‘religious Daoism’. 6. say, speak; express, communicate orally; cue. 7. circuit, administrative area outside the usu. prefecture/district (junxian 郡縣 [jun4 xian4 prefecture county]) structure; in Han times ref. frontier areas mainly populated by non-Chinese; in Tang times also ref. frontier area but from 706 on more importantly to large units of province size throughput the state, each of which (10 at first) incl. many prefectures and governed by special commissioners (shi 使 [shi3 sent]). 8. (med.) understand, be aware of; think, presume. a. (med.) expect; have a sense that X is likely to happen. ~~~<>~~~ dao3 ~~~<>~~~ 1. (interchangeable) 導 dao3 1. lead, lead the way, show the way; conduct, guide. ~~~ Even after filtering out (e.g. ‘med.’, ‘Budd.’), I will still be left with a plethora of choices.

Thread locked because of tiresome drivel. FoC may reopen if there is a reason to. A.

Jesus H. Christ.

Another factor is that those "serious things" are often quite secretive, sometimes for good reason, perhaps sometimes not. I know that I feel uncomfortable sharing things my teacher asked us to keep to ourselves, be that personal experiences and insights from practice, specific information, or practical instruction. In part this is because certain information can be useless, misinterpreted, or even harmful when pursued before the student is prepared. Not saying a focused and well--moderated neidan forum would necessarily be a bad idea but I do think there will be challenges.

I think people who know serious things, if I can put it that way, are nervous about posting their ideas and being greeted with ridicule or low IQ takes. It’s a frustrating and depressing experience. As is immediate derailment into the world of slop.

One of my favorite modern parables is Anthony Demello's parable about Jesus, or someone like him... "A man invents the art of making fire and travels to cold, snow-covered regions where hill tribes shiver in the bitter cold. He teaches them how to make fire, showing them its benefits—staying warm, cooking food, building shelters. The people learn eagerly and are deeply grateful. But before they can thank him, he quietly slips away, uninterested in recognition or praise, embodying the nature of true greatness. He moves to another tribe and teaches them the same skill. His popularity grows, alarming the local priests who fear losing their influence. They poison him. When suspicion arises, the priests act swiftly to protect themselves. They place a portrait of the Great Inventor on the temple altar and create a liturgy to honor his name. The tools he used to make fire are enshrined in a sacred casket, believed to heal those who touch them with faith. The High Priest writes a biography of the Inventor, which becomes a Holy Book—celebrating his love, glorifying his deeds, and declaring his divine nature as a core article of faith. The priests ensure the Book is passed down through generations, interpreting its meaning authoritatively and punishing any deviation with excommunication or death. Over time, the rituals, worship, and veneration are meticulously preserved for decades, then centuries. Yet, despite all the reverence, there is no fire. The people have forgotten how to make it. They have ritual, gratitude, and devotion—but no transformation. Prayer is not a symbol of fire—it is fire itself, meaning inner transformation through awareness. If worship doesn’t lead to love, if liturgy doesn’t bring clearer perception, if God doesn’t lead to life, then religion is useless—breeding only division and fanaticism. The world doesn’t lack religion; it lacks love and awareness. True spirituality is not about rituals, but about awakening to reality, seeing through illusions, and allowing the fire of awareness to change your being."

I think ChiDragon has a future in US politics...

I know what you think, I wasn’t asking you.

Nope, the idea was not an elitist club, anymore than a tennis club that wants its members to be tennis players rather than football players bent on preaching to them about the correct shape of the ball they should be playing with. Or a football club that tries to stop tennis players from running around the field swinging their racquets at the goalkeeper. TBH that idea was born out of sheer frustration... a pipe dream... something along the lines of that tree house rule:

Google yields even more reliable results if you put site:thedaobums.com in your query. It's a great tip to know as of course works with any other domain name. On a similar note, i noticed when viewing a user's content history (either via the newspaper icon on profile, or the 🔍Find Content popup) it only goes back a few months. To get the full list you just have to click Posts on left side of the window, or from the Content Type drop-down if using a small window.

I read the title of this thread as ‘Saving Private Neidan’ on first take made me laugh.

To truly understand Wu Wei, we must consider a radically different perspective on reality. Most of us assume that we exist as separate players in an world of separate players, each making their own decisions. From the perspective of the Dao, or Rigpa, or enlightened mind, this is a nonsense. The separateness can be seen in operation, but also is very obviously a delusion, once understood. It is pointed to here: As worded, this is a nice little joke, inside of what looks like a riddle (it isn't)... this, in my experience, is the flavor of non-duality - "its" sense of humor. When we can see "emptiness", it is clear that it is the most salient quality of all illusory things, and that what you can see in this moment is also the extent of what can be seen in this moment.This is alluded to in Dogen's (creator of the Soto Zen school) "Instructions for the Tenzo": Words are emptiness. They refer to concepts, not real things. Practice is complete presence in (non-dual) reality in this moment. This moment is everywhere/everything, there is nothing else to do - nothing is hidden. The Dao is this, here, now, without delusions of "self" and "doing" and without time/space. To be transparent and aligned with the Dao, drop the idea of doing by allowing the mind to become still, or REALIZING that the stillness of emptiness is already what permeates all experience. This field of experience "we" are enveloped in acts as a whole, not as a series of parts, and the "Dao, or Rigpa, or enlightened mind" does it all without our input. Even our responses and intentions arise as part of the whole - aren't "ours". It appears that there is "doing", but what appears to be happening happens of its own accord, in timeless, spaceless awareness. Wu Wei is the happening of the phenomenal world without a subject/actor. The subject/actor has dropped away... things happen of their own accord, and are naturally taken care of, including the parts we might have thought "we" were doing. We aren't driving the car. A person lost in the suffering of their separateness, appears to "Dao, or Rigpa, or enlightened mind" like this: ...lost in the delusion that they are in charge. Arguments about how Wu Wei looks that involve how individual pieces on the chess board (animals/people/events) miss the fundamental point. It isn't up to "you'. It isn't about how "you" choose to act, or the kind of person "you" think you are.

Thanks for the vote of confidence Cobie! I´m not sure how much rescuing I´ll be up for though in the Year of the Horse; thinking of taking 2026 off. In lieu of a rescue, would you accept some dubious neidan advice (please see my contributions to the new subforum!) or an ironic personal anecdote? Those things are definitely on the docket.

When I look up the meaning of each character, this is what I find: 5. 故常無欲以觀其妙 故 therefore; so; thus; for this reason; because of; cause; reason; former; old; old friend; old matter; incident; event; deliberately; intentionally; to pass away; hometown; native place 常 constant; always; often; regularly; habitual; customary; common; ordinary; normal; fixed 無 not; no; without; lack; absence; none; nothing; nothingness; empty; to not have 欲 desire; want; wish; would like to; intend; plan; appetite; craving; lust; greed; urge; need; request; to be about to; will; shall 以 use; by means of; with; take; because of; according to; so as to; in order to; thereby; and; from; to regard as 觀 look; see; watch; observe; view; inspect; contemplate; reflect; consider; viewpoint; scene; Daoist temple; monastery 其 his; her; its; their; that; those; such; the aforementioned; emphasis marker; should; would; perhaps 妙 subtle; fine; delicate; ingenious; clever; wonderful; marvelous; exquisite; profound; mysterious; key point; hidden secret 6. 常有欲以觀其徼 常 constant; always; often; regularly; habitual; customary; common; ordinary; normal; fixed 有 have; possess; there is; there are; exist; presence; own; happen; occur; certain; some 欲 desire; want; wish; would like to; intend; plan; appetite; craving; lust; greed; urge; need; request; to be about to; will; shall 以 use; by means of; with; take; because of; according to; so as to; in order to; thereby; and; from; to regard as 觀 look; see; watch; observe; view; inspect; contemplate; reflect; consider; viewpoint; scene; Daoist temple; monastery 其 his; her; its; their; that; those; such; the aforementioned; emphasis marker; should; would; perhaps 徼 border; boundary; frontier; outskirts; limit; edge; patrol; guard; intercept; demand; exact; seek

Lao was 'bothered ' by a bird ? You better put that one in square brackets !

My take ( at the moment ... which may change 'as I go along ' ) is ; Heaven and Earth ' signify the primal 'division' from the one - giving us the three . These three ( the one itself and its expression in 2 ) are like the supernal triad and above the 'abyss' (of comprehension ) - hence 'invisible ' . 3. Invisible, was a name given to Tao at the origin of sky and earth. But after that , below the abyss , in to manifestation ( of the 10,000 things ) we can see in nature this 'signature ' ( TTC Ch 42, line 5 ) 4. Visible, was a name given to Tao as the mother of all things. Ie . we can see (identify ) the 'cause' ( the mother ) after creation , in the creation .

What exactly is your wife placing her hand oh?

As you may see, we are considering establishing a private neidan subforum. Unlike most of the TDB, the contents on this forum would only be viewable by TDB members with 20 posts, would be limited to neidan discussion (based on well-recognized texts, established schools and lineages). In other words, it would be a semi-private place for neidan based discussion. The forum title would be visible to AI and general non-members, but posts and comments would not. Before proceeding down this path, I wanted to open up to community thoughts and feedback. Let us know your thoughts/concerns/issues.

Various scriptures have different origins . Avestas - Various oral traditions / 'hymns' that evolved through centuries that were later written down and standardized much later which was a small percentage of a much larger earlier collection . Judaism - adopted several different cultural stories ( from Canaanite , Zoroastrian and Babylonian sources ) and wrote a 'religious history ' lifted from Assyrians ( eg old 'United Kingdom' , Solomon and his 'empire ' ) , 'found ' a scared Book of Law ( Torah ) and wrote up a back story , attempting to take over the northern kingdom of Israel ( Josiah ) and eventually moved into some historical documentation of themselves after that . Christianity - 1/2 their scripture borrowed from the above and the other half are gospels , which are highly suspect and full of all sorts of other ideas and politics of the time . Islam - where do I start ? Actually ; pass . - aside from that , a few times I have shared my ideas about origins and spread of religions ..... post ice age , ie . human accrued experience, not divine revelation . - the further we go back the moire we attribute to as 'gifts from God/s ' . However to explore you question in the affirmative , look at 'progressive revelation ( eg within a religion ; that would be 'Christian progressive revelation ' ) or perhaps more in answer to your question , overall including all religions and times and peoples , ( see Baha'i progressive revelation concept ) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_revelation_(Baháʼí) .

22 pages in finally a good neidan related topic Buddhism (and especially mahayana - vajrayana) shares quite a bit of similarity with original daoism but neidan is a different method with different goals that happens to overlap in a few places (I am both a practicioner of vajrayana and neidan) Dzogchen is strangely used as a xing method by a few different lineages though, with exact descriptions of the crystal kati channel The golden elixir is your true nature yes but its simultaneously a real energetic - physical substance with specific instructions, not something to be found pre-existing as in vajrayana (primordial purity)

Hi! That is not true from what i have been taught. While there are some Neidan texts that suggest that golden elixir is the true nature others dont. What one has to understand is that neidan texts are alchemical texts meaning they are mostly useless without lineage or divine inspiration (very rare). In the same way one cannot make the external elixir (the philosophers stone) from reading texts about it one cannot get anywhere or understand much when reading alchemical texts without teacher and direct experience. The golden elixir reveals!!! ... the true nature in a deeply embodied way because it is the merging of xing and ming.....meaning the deepest form of inner division is neutralized .... xing = preheaven yin, ming = preheaven yang. Ancient neidan does not talk about returning to the Dao but about repairing it within the bodymind (through the merging of xing and ming). At the same time the golden elixir makes one earth immortal which means the physical body lasts for a really long time. Much here appreciated freeform had known a living immortal master (they appear not only in daoism but also in Tamil siddha tradition or the wizzars tradition of Burmese).

Hi @ChiDragon, I have a genuine question for you. I don't mean any disrespect but your answer will help me understand your positions related to neidan. I believe you've posted here that you have studied taijiquan with a teacher at some point. My questions is, have you ever studied neidan or other forms of neigong (other than taijiquan) with a teacher? If so, can you share what system or lineage? I'm trying to understand where the "original Taoist method of Neidan" is coming from. Thank you

I propose you to read daoist texts before starting new thread on Neidan First read, investigate then teach other people