Do right and wrong / good and evil exist

[old3bob]

"

According to the Dalai Lama, “If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun.” (Seattle Times, May 15, ...

[old3bob]

Anyone else want to say something to the question below?

 

"A tangential question on the topic.  Is a "Buddha", using the generic and spiritual meaning of the word,  (thus a being who could be associated with Buddhism, Hinduism, or any other number of "eastern" or "western" schools)  just or only a human being that is limited  to human judgement?" 

[freeform]

So I thought I’d weigh in with my own views on morality - as it’s an interesting topic for me.

 

1 - I think we absolutely do have a basic moral compass that’s prior to any societal conditioning. We know right and wrong from a very young age. It’s based on very basic animal drives and preferences. The preference for nutrition over poison… pleasure over pain… love over hate… attention over being ignored… survival over death.

 

2 - We also have a strong urge to belong to a group - which means we are primed to take on beliefs, preferences and attitudes of those around us. In this way our moral attitudes are adjusted by our society. This adjusting can override our basic moral values.

 

Theres lots of experimental data to show that this is the case. What’s funny is that our own biases towards our group adjusts our view of morality. We’re far more likely to assume that those outside our group are immoral or are at least capable of immoral acts. The ‘other’ is usually seen as capable of killing while you and your group are not.

 

But the truth is that the vast majority of all people - even despite their cultural conditioning are averse to killing. I can’t remember the exact statistic - but something like 80% of soldiers never even fired their rifle in WW2. These are people who have been trained to kill… being met by an aggressive enemy - and still the vast majority won’t even shoot their rifle - let alone aim it at a person with the goal to kill them.

 

The ones who do shoot to kill are often actively protecting their group (like when their squad is ambushed)… it’s this protection of the group (no. 2 above) that overrides our basic moral value of not killing another.

 

Soldiers that do kill, in many cases are incredibly traumatised by their act. It’s something that never leaves them.

 

———

 

Is there some mechanism the decides morality?

 

From a Daoist Alchemical perspective (at least the tradition I’m part of) - yes.

 

But it’s not external to you.
 

It’s you.

 

But not the ‘you’ that you’re aware of…

 

At the moment of death, as your soul gets ready for the process of transmigration, it evaluates your lifetime - and actions that made strong impressions on you will take significance at that time… The soul does not look upon these actions from our normal perspective - our personality with all its biases and acquired conditioning… it’s perspective is closer to that of our true, divine self.

 

So even the dude that took great pleasure in creating pain for others, sees his actions without the filter of whatever acquired mental and emotional deviations that gave birth to these actions… and at that moment they recognise what they have done - and it’s this self recognition that ‘scars’ the conditionable aspect of our individuated soul (bhavanga in the Buddhist tradition) and creates the karma for the next life.

 

The ‘morality’ of our ‘true, divine self’ - is similar to, but a little different from the more basic ‘animal’ morality we express as small children… more likely it’s this divine morality that is adjusted (through the process of ‘refraction’ from pre heaven to post heaven) intto animal morality that is suitable for survival on the earthly plane.

 

———

 

So I said that this process happens at the moment of death - that’s true for most people.
 

But it also happens at the moment of entering various meditative states. As one crosses over from the manifest into the unmanifest and touches the centre of one’s divine aspect - suddenly all the impact of our actions come into view…

 

As this happens, there’s a very vulnerable period where one either begins to identify with these karmic ‘scars’ (and therefore fertilises them into fruiting in various ways) or one begins the spiritual journey of transformation.

 

This is why often you see people that have clearly had some divine insight, or some spiritual achievement begin to act immoraly - their karma takes over and they slowly become a kind of monster as their fears, pain and inadequacy begin to fruit into abusive behaviour. Sometimes it’s subtle - sometimes it’s quite shocking.
 

THIS is the reason for spiritual traditions to have strict moral precepts.
 

They are the guiderails for this vulnerable period where we’ve touched the divine at one end, but still mired deeply in all our karmic issues on the other end - and this discrepancy makes for fertile ground for the seeds to sprout.

 

Once these karmic seeds have been cleared, there is no longer any need for the guide-rails of moral precepts… one cannot help but emit divine morality unconditionally. There are various physical and physiological signs of this having taken place. It’s very rare indeed. Jesus-level rare

 

The big issue is that when one is in the vulnerable period, it’s easy for them to think they’ve become enlightened and that they’re at the stage that moral precepts no longer apply… it’s a very tricky period for cultivators - particularly if they are not part of a tradition and don’t have a teacher guiding them.

[freeform]

Just now, freeform said:

Theres lots of experimental data

Edited December 26, 2021 by freeform

[freeform]

https://youtu.be/FRvVFW85IcU

Not sure why I can’t paste a YouTube video properly… it’s about the experiments of morality with babies. 

Edited December 26, 2021 by freeform

[old3bob]

i don't know either but posted it for you...

[old3bob]

"....The big issue is that when one is in the vulnerable period, it’s easy for them to think they’ve become enlightened and that they’re at the stage that moral precepts no longer apply… it’s a very tricky period for cultivators - particularly if they are not part of a tradition and don’t have a teacher guiding them." freeform

 

Indeed, and also along the lines of or aspect of knowledge, knowledge acquired without a near equal development of being and reduction in karma's as you've pointed out to go with it.  There is a Bible verse along this line and its bitterness:  "1 Corinthians 13 1

 

"If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing."

 

Edited December 26, 2021 by old3bob

[Daniel]

On 12/24/2021 at 8:09 PM, silent thunder said:

It exemplifies the dichotomy and the lack of a clear moral status.

Some in society honor and worship soldiers for murder.

Some abhor them.

Some soldiers bask in the praise.

Others loathe participating in it and just want to be home.

 

I find his quote exemplifies the lack of objectivity in the concept of righteous murder.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Or more simply it points out the injustice of killings during warfare.

 

What do you think, is military action resulting in murdering innocents good or evil?

[natural]

Over many years I have had many canine companions, with the only exception of a puppy in my toddler stage, all could distinguish intent. Was it to harm or an accident? Without fail they knew my intent, with the the exception of the pup who suffered distemper.

My family was new to dogs... and it wasn't but a decade later before my home was blessed with another dog.

[Geof Nanto]

I’ve read all the comments on this topic with interest.  It’s one of those discussions where I could well add a ‘Thank You’ to everyone who has contributed.  It’s a vast topic though, one that’s been extensively explored throughout history in both the West and the East. 

 

@freeform  Yes, morality, which is deeply explored in Confucianism, is integral to neidan, yet it’s little discussed in contemporary Western cultivation circles.  Indeed, there’s an erroneous yet widely held view that Daoism and Confucianism are fundamentally antagonistic. They are not. They are complementary. 

 

For anyone who is interested, I recently read an excellent essay which explains Neo-Confucianism cultivation with great clarity. I assume all neidan practitioners will find its language and cultivation aims familiar, both similar and complementary:   

Varieties of Spiritual Experience: Shen 神 in Neo-Confucian Discourse

 

[Geof Nanto]

Here’s an interesting essay that’s pertinent to the topic in that it explores how vital acknowledgement of our own evil is for inner cultivation. I particularly like it because its grounded in the method of alchemical transmutation rather than attempting to cut off evil:  Böhme’s Theology of Evil and its Relevance for Psychoanalysis

 

A couple of extracts:

 

“Without official training as either a theologian or a philosopher, and inspired by peculiar religious experiences, Böhme blended the limited sources he had available to him (the Luther Bible, the alchemical writings of Paracelsus, the preaching of the German mystics) into a strikingly original vision of God’s relation to creation. At the same he constructed a new paradigm of personality, the functional soul as an imago Dei—the product of a resolution of conflicting unconscious drives. The unconscious ground of personality extends as far as demonic evil, and provides Böhme with an answer, however heterodox, to the question of the origin of evil. For Böhme, good and evil are mutually exclusive yet connected at the root. Christ’s love is born of the same principle as the devil’s hate. Böhme calls this common root the wrath (Zorn) of God, the narcissism of the father, which is forever balanced by his mercy. The notion of an original unity of divine wrath and mercy originates in the Kabbalah, which posits them as respectively the left and right hand of God. United, divine wrath and divine mercy hold each other in check. Without mercy, wrath becomes the spite of the devil. Evil is ingrown personality, the self-assertive principle sundering itself from the other and willing to be infinite. The result of this break is a loss of interior balance and capacity to grasp reality. The others who ought to be occasions for love became hateful and sources of pain.”

 

“For Böhme, there can be no divinization without passion and will; the first principle—harshness / narcissism—is integral to the realization of the good. Sanctity cannot be achieved by a simple negation of self will; it requires, rather, its transmutation. Böhme’s greatest psychological insight is this identification of the seed in love which otherwise sown becomes evil, or better, the seed of evil, which, with cultivation, blossoms into love. Against the emasculated Christianity which preaches love without self, sanctity without self-assertion, Böhme argues that the loving personality has at its heart a flame of narcissism—overcome, self-donated, but undeniably alive.”

 

Edited December 26, 2021 by Yueya

[-_sometimes]

11 hours ago, freeform said:

Once these karmic seeds have been cleared, there is no longer any need for the guide-rails of moral precepts… one cannot help but emit divine morality unconditionally. There are various physical and physiological signs of this having taken place

Would you be willing to share some examples of those signs?

[old3bob]

 "...one cannot help but emit divine morality unconditionally..."  

 

whether intended or not that pretty much  answers one of my earlier posts...

Edited December 27, 2021 by old3bob

[freeform]

11 hours ago, -_sometimes said:

Would you be willing to share some examples of those signs?

These are generally inner door secrets. Not sure why - but they are… I can skirt around it though 😅

 

For instance some of the biblical miracles line up with these signs. Sometimes allegorically.

 

For instance manna coming down from heaven to feed the Israelites on their journey from Egypt to the ‘promised land’.

 

The manna coming down from heaven is what’s known as ‘jade fluid’ in Daoism or ‘Amrita’ in Hindu traditions. Coming down from heaven - means it descends as a fluid into the mouth from the internal heaven (‘located’ in the centre of the head… but also accessed in a certain state of awareness)… it feeds because this is a very nourishing substance that can regenerate you physiologically and energetically and usually means you no longer need to eat for a period.

 

When a master can cause this in his disciples, this is one sign among many…

[anshino23]

2 hours ago, freeform said:

When a master can cause this in his disciples, this is one sign among many…

 

I was under the impression that the Amrit is something that is produced endogenously as a consequence of the correct causes and conditions being in place that would allow it to be produced. I wasn't aware that it can actively be directly activated by a Master even if the conditions were not in place for that to happen? But I guess at the higher levels an authentic master could literally transform your physical body if he wanted to (but your karmic hindrances may not make that the 'right course of action'). 

[Indiken]

3 hours ago, freeform said:

These are generally inner door secrets. Not sure why - but they are… I can skirt around it though 😅

 

Please, can you answer - Why keep secret what is considered to be good?

 

For example, if I would have abnormal powers, my reasoning not to share would be:

 

• I would profit
• I would feel superior
• It would be tiresome to teach, teaching is not required to proceed 
• Teachings can be interpreted, so practitioners can hurt themselves or waste time
• Everyone has to proceed and learn by themselves, to share something is to do bad to them. For example, the material I read from "alien" source says that in this density we live, we have to do karma and learn common lesions to proceed to higher density. When asked what those lesions are, the answer is to figure yourself.

 

EDIT: Missed the "not sure" part, question is not important anymore.

Edited December 27, 2021 by Indiken

[freeform]

1 hour ago, anshino23 said:

 

I was under the impression that the Amrit is something that is produced endogenously as a consequence of the correct causes and conditions being in place that would allow it to be produced.

Yup - it’s usually produced through correct practice of various alchemical methods.

 

1 hour ago, anshino23 said:

I wasn't aware that it can actively be directly activated by a Master even if the conditions were not in place for that to happen?

Yup  

 

1 hour ago, anshino23 said:

But I guess at the higher levels an authentic master could literally transform your physical body if he wanted to

What I’m talking about isn’t a result of that sort of cause. It happens at an earlier level of attainment than the stage of mastery over form… (earlier stage - though still exceptionally rare).

[old3bob]

Also, a master does have a measure of personal power but I'd say more importantly does the work of the Holy Spirit or the Holy Spirit works through them...so it is not a matter of what they want but a matter of how the greater power of Spirit moves, directs or uses them as a willing and witnessing conduit. 

Edited December 27, 2021 by old3bob

[helpfuldemon]

Unfortunately there is  a need for soldiers.  It just goes to show you that if mankind can think it up they will do it.  War is one of those things.  

[silent thunder]

22 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

Or more simply it points out the injustice of killings during warfare.

 

What do you think, is military action resulting in murdering innocents good or evil?

Neither. 

[liminal_luke]

53 minutes ago, silent thunder said:

Neither. 

 

This answer reminded me of a snippet from shame researcher Brene Brown's TedTalk on vulnerability.  She tells the story of her first appointment with a therapist.  After briefly describing her reasons for seeking help, Brene has the following exchange...

 

Brene: It's bad, right?

 

Therapist: It's neither good nor bad.  It just is what it is.

 

Brene: Oh my God, this is going to suck.

[Nungali]

22 hours ago, Yueya said:

Here’s an interesting essay that’s pertinent to the topic in that it explores how vital acknowledgement of our own evil is for inner cultivation. I particularly like it because its grounded in the method of alchemical transmutation rather than attempting to cut off evil:  Böhme’s Theology of Evil and its Relevance for Psychoanalysis

 

A couple of extracts:

 

“Without official training as either a theologian or a philosopher, and inspired by peculiar religious experiences, Böhme blended the limited sources he had available to him (the Luther Bible, the alchemical writings of Paracelsus, the preaching of the German mystics) into a strikingly original vision of God’s relation to creation. At the same he constructed a new paradigm of personality, the functional soul as an imago Dei—the product of a resolution of conflicting unconscious drives. The unconscious ground of personality extends as far as demonic evil, and provides Böhme with an answer, however heterodox, to the question of the origin of evil. For Böhme, good and evil are mutually exclusive yet connected at the root. Christ’s love is born of the same principle as the devil’s hate. Böhme calls this common root the wrath (Zorn) of God, the narcissism of the father, which is forever balanced by his mercy. The notion of an original unity of divine wrath and mercy originates in the Kabbalah, which posits them as respectively the left and right hand of God. United, divine wrath and divine mercy hold each other in check. Without mercy, wrath becomes the spite of the devil. Evil is ingrown personality, the self-assertive principle sundering itself from the other and willing to be infinite. The result of this break is a loss of interior balance and capacity to grasp reality. The others who ought to be occasions for love became hateful and sources of pain.”

 

“For Böhme, there can be no divinization without passion and will; the first principle—harshness / narcissism—is integral to the realization of the good. Sanctity cannot be achieved by a simple negation of self will; it requires, rather, its transmutation. Böhme’s greatest psychological insight is this identification of the seed in love which otherwise sown becomes evil, or better, the seed of evil, which, with cultivation, blossoms into love. Against the emasculated Christianity which preaches love without self, sanctity without self-assertion, Böhme argues that the loving personality has at its heart a flame of narcissism—overcome, self-donated, but undeniably alive.”

 

 

I am wondering why the term 'wrath ' was used to oppose  'mercy ' ?   I cant help but feel its the wrong word  ; wrath means  extreme anger  and the expression of extreme anger . In years and years of studying kabbalah I never seen that  translation , it has always been  mercy and severity  ;  strict and / or harsh . 

 

Many a time here I have included this passage ,  its a good example of the application of these two principles;

 

" Remember that unbalanced force is evil; that unbalanced severity is but cruelty and oppression; but that also unbalanced mercy is but weakness which would allow and abet Evil."

 

It seems that the word chosen for translation here was done so to fit in with the theory .    Also Bohme wrote very obscurely and mostly for himself and friends , leading to some to misinterpret his works .... which seem to have stuck .

 

" However, it is clear that Böhme never claimed that God sees evil as desirable, necessary or as part of divine will to bring forth good. In his Threefold Life, Böhme states: "in the order of nature, an evil thing cannot produce a good thing out of itself, but one evil thing generates another." Böhme did not believe that there is any "divine mandate or metaphysically inherent necessity for evil and its effects in the scheme of things."  - Wiki on Bohme . 

 

Also he is a 'black gnostic' like most Christians and believes in  the 'Fall'  of Man as the reason we are here  ( the white school believes incarnation is a positive process to gain experience ). However , he was influenced by Neo-Platonism and alchemy as well , and is honoured by his inclusion as a  Saint in The Gnostic Catholic ( ie. Universal )  Church in that  some of his teachings penetrated and where incorporated into high grade Freemasonry ;

https://sabazius.oto-usa.org/jacob-boehme/

 

I am interested in this bit ;  " a new paradigm of personality, the functional soul as an imago Dei—the product of a resolution of conflicting unconscious drives. "  This seems to suggest , and other parts of the article  suggest  these conflicting drives in Man originated in God  .... 'in the image of ' (imago)  'God' (Dei)  .  Curios .     I find it interesting  as it is he first time I have heard of anyone ( else besides me ) refer to the soul as a resultant product of unconscious drives !  However in my case I dont see it as a product resulting from conflicting forces but as one  primal drive  ( in concert with a reinforcing feedback loop in 'material actions' )  . And this primal drive is unique to Man and causes us to be different from every other animal . 

 

However I totally agree with your own words here  :   " how vital acknowledgement of our own evil is for inner cultivation "

 

and also  vital , how these forces are generated in us  and how we can develop them to positive ends . 

 

Personally, I believe the polarity only begins with Man .   Mercy / Severity  ( or even Mercy / Wrath ), good/ bad , etc . as many have pointed out , is a human value system . Its all based on the fact that humans are a primate and we function best in extended family groups ... thats our 'nature'  - regardless of how many hermits , nuclear families  or massed collectives form, thy will generate problems as they are not part of our natural way ,(  unless we can change from being primates     ) .

 

So our basic wiring is within this and  any ideas we have about what is good or bad , stem from this ;  are we geared to be able to live well together , within that extended family / group  ( good )  or are we an individual that only cares for oneself at the expense of the others in the group (evil ) . An 'evil' person has no regard for others 'in the group ' .  This is the core feature of initiation  ( world wide, through all societies and times ) ; naturally , Man is a wild animal, just like all the others , initiation makes people 'human'  -  decent social creatures that can look after and support each other , learning ( through their initiations - or other dynamics and education )  what their responsibilities are to the group , and what rewards and benefits they get back, for giving up their  (totally) independent 'wild' nature .

 

Also I liked  your comments about transforming 'evil' via alchemy .  One of the core principles of alchemy is 'circulation' .   The basic principles in Zoroastrianism  are ; Good thoughts, good deeds and good actions . Thats how they cultivate .  One generates the other   and visa versa . Eg  They had a prohibition ( man of them ! ) relating to animals one was , if an animal  ( like a sheep or chicken )  starts to be treated like /  becomes , a pet , you cannot use that animal as   food .   Why ?   Well, I am sure most people here realise its a bit weird eating your pets  ... but what if you did ?  First you would think about doing that , and you might convince yourself by  trying to verbally convince others , then you might do the act . Unconsciously that is setting up a 'weird ' psychology internally . The act reinforces the idea and gives feedback, back into the mind , now the concept had been justified and cemented in by the action, each time its done ( 'circulation' )  its more firmly lodged  and gives birth to other things  and ideas  ;  like using things to your own advantage without thought of the thing itself  ( yeah, I know this applies to  vegetarianism as well  - but with the Zoroastrians  ,  ' good friendship',  truth, loyalty, companionship, etc where primarily lauded  - as principles which hold the group together , as above , a primary importance for primates , a pet was seen as an extension of this 'loyal companionship ' ) . before long you might be abusing things and your friends and the system and your society .  The reverse applies, of course, with 'good'  ;  good thoughts lead to good words and deeds which give feedback into mind and circulate  as healthy psychology .  And these good acts should be the principles of religion ;   good works - charity  ( many a person recovering from mental health issues has lauded the benefit of such work , like working in a soup kitchen or offering similar assistance to others ), a few times here I have talked about the benefit of 'offerings '  ; showing appreciation (in an act ) for what you have and gratitude for it  is a healthy psychological practice and will accrue benefit over time .

Edited December 27, 2021 by Nungali

[Daniel]

4 hours ago, silent thunder said:

Neither. 

 

If , according to you, murdering an innocent person is neither good nor evil; then, am I correct to conclude that your answer is the same for saving the life of an innocent person?  It's neither good nor evil?

[steve]

On 12/21/2021 at 12:06 PM, Daniel said:

I do beleive in a single divine being

 

Do you believe this divinity to be omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent?

[manitou]

On 12/22/2021 at 12:56 PM, silent thunder said:

Tao Te Ching Chapter 5

Lin Yutang

Nature is unkind:
It treats the creation like sacrificial straw-dogs.
The Sage is unkind:
He treats the people like sacrificial straw-dogs.

How the universe is like a bellows!
Empty, yet it gives a supply that never fails;
The more it is worked, the more it brings forth.

By many words is wit exhausted.
Rather, therefore, hold to the core.

 

 

 

I love Lin Yutang's translation.

 

What is, is.  Nature is kind and unkind, depending on the beholder.

We all share the same entity within.  Only our conditioning separates us.  That Thing inside us that Knows, that exists as awareness, is not affected by kind or unkind.  It sits at the base of our being.  It wants to Experience.  It wants to experience seemingly good and seemingly bad.  Our conditioned selves are the straw dogs.  The essence we share is the true self.

 

I've been in some nasty depressions in my life.  And as depressed as I would get, there was always an awareness at the bottom of it that knew that I was choosing to be depressed.  Ego chooses to be depressed.  And as to murder and things like that -  does it really matter on which day we die?  It's going to happen one way or the other.  Our bodies are the straw dogs, not our essence.  It goes on.  It always has been, and always will be.  I've heard it said that death is like slipping out of a tight shoe.

 

To do 'good' may be the very same as doing harm.  I'm very familiar with alcoholism, and this is a case in point.  One thinks they may be being kind to the alcoholic; perhaps a wiser person would see it as enabling the alcoholic to remain sick.

 

No, I don't think there's good and evil.  Just Is-ness.  Enlightenment, in the final run, is the elimination of making that judgment.  Of making any judgments at all.