Do right and wrong / good and evil exist

[dwai]

The use of "straw dog" seems to imply the ephemeral/mirage-like nature (therefore, akin to phrases used in Hindu texts often - "horns on a hare's head", or "child of a barren woman")  of "reality" as we see it. 

[Nungali]

17 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

Most people and cultures have a moral code, a deep sense that some actions are right and others wrong.  We may disagree about the nature of right and wrong actions, but we tend to agree that there is such a thing as right and wrong.  When asked to define pornography in 1964, US Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart famously said "I know it when I see it."  That's how I feel about evil.

 

Meh ... what a crap definition !

 

I can do a LOT better    

 

Spoiler

'Pornography' is  when I want to see something erotic , but instead I feel I have stumbled upon an anatomy lesson .

 

 

 

17 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

Personally, I'm not OK with the murder of human beings but am OK knowing that other animals and plants die so that I can live.

 

Yes. And when I die , I will go into the ground and other animals and plants will live off me  .... seems  fair enough .

 

 

17 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

 

  I'm not OK with the death penalty but am OK with women who choose to have abortions (as emotionally complicated as that choice may be).  I'm OK with people in terrible pain deciding to end their own lives.  Other Bums doubtless think differently.  

 

If I did something deeply against my own moral code (like kill someone) I'd probably vomit.  Throwing up is a good barometer of evil, a sure sign that my body is unable to assimilate my actions.  The world would be a much better place if everybody just avoided doing things that made them want to upchuck.  That would be a good place to start.

 

I believe that evil fragments and good unifies.  Daoist teachers I've listened to have used phrases like "the mind becoming one with the heart."  They've talked about the 3 dan tiens coming together.  I think there's something about this coming together process that transcends cultural differences.

 

" Building this particular part of your psyche with some other parts , enables you to continue on after death as well ( See ' United Fravashi" in the link above . ) Crowley also has a similar concept of this uniting that leads to a 'successful transmigration , and retaining of this life's experience , without this uniting that experience can be lost ( and I postulate must be done time and time again in cycles of incarnation until one 'gets' it .... on the 'immortal plane ' ) . The ancient Egyptian system seems based on the same principle as well ; a certain development and uniting of parts of the psyche with the body ( 'khat' - the material perishable .... ' dead fish stink ' ) is needed to gain ' eternal momentum' ( the hypotenuse ) to the formation of 'eternal shining spirit ' - Akh ;

 

"

 

https://forum.alchemical.garden/threads/212/#post-1349

 

 

17 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

 

 

 

 

  If I do something and it tears me apart, I'm probably on the wrong track.  If doing something allows for more integration and unification, it's probably not so bad.  This is how I judge.

 

 

 

I like this .

 

One of our groups 'tracing boards' *  / teaching aids  shows various branches of magic / yoga  in a type of radiating pie chart .  Towards the centre we  have the positive manifestations and 'forces'   ( a bit like the  ' drives' of psychology ) radiating out from a central  white unity  in various colours  ;

 

Gnana, Raja, Bakhti, hatha , Mantra, Karma - relating to Holy Kabbalah (and similar) , Sacred Magick, Acts of Worship, Ordeals, Invocations and Service  -

 

relating to Knowledge , Will, Love , Courage , Speech and Work  .  As these qualities radiate out from the centre they begin to loose colour and focus and eventually result in an outer band of   insanity, obsession, fanaticism,  paralysis and death,  gossip and  idleness . Then these sections continue outward and loose colour until all are joined in darkness and and outer dark ring encompasses all ; 'ignorance' .

 

But when we where creating this and our group artist had made all these things fade into a central white light at the centre of the 'board' , where all virtues come together , I had to think of a tag to print there . After much thought we decided  the central word would be ; ' Integration '   .

 

 

*  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tracing_board

 

[Nungali]

If one 'group' kills the infant of another 'group' should the first take revenge on the second ? 

 

 

https://www.newsweek.com/group-monkeys-kill-over-250-dogs-revenge-indian-town-1660683?fbclid=IwAR0bJw0vi0bmxfRs92lxu0TexvZVinSZDYFLDXxYqpzSq7l4rTwXjAJdy7k

[helpfuldemon]

11 hours ago, dwai said:

My studied observation and consequent summarization is as follows --

 

Anything that takes us away from our True Nature is wrong/bad. Anything that leads us towards our True Nature is right/good. Of course, there are progressive gradations within our everyday experiences that contribute towards our trajectory in life with regards to the realization of/Being our True Nature (either towards or away from). Within each gradation are "micro-actions/events/expressions" which too can be similarly considered as "Good/Bad or Right/Wrong". 

 

I belong to the school of thought that our human existence is solely for the purpose of Realizing and Being our True Nature. 

 

Ones true nature changes over time with experience and education.  In the end the true nature is up in the air, and at the time of death will probably be different than when they were younger.

 

People usually need to experience the Evil of crime upon themselves before realizing why it is a crime, otherwise it is just someone else's opinion on right and wrong.

Edited December 23, 2021 by helpfuldemon

[old3bob]

"Ones true nature changes over time with experience and education.  In the end the true nature is up in the air, and at the time of death will probably be different than when they were younger." H.D.

 

The Upanishads definitely do not not posit this interpretation... which can be verified when seeing the mind for what it is, a thing.

[helpfuldemon]

There is no "True Self".  It's all conditioning.

[steve]

My perspective is that good/evil - right/wrong exist, but solely within human judgement. This is captured in passages like those regarding straw dogs in DDJ. In Buddhism, it is related to the 2 Truths. Good/bad is only relevant to the truth of relative existence. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the truth of absolute existence. Like Dao, the Natural State allows for all expressions and manifestations equally and without preference or judgement. From our human perspective, there is clearly judgement and preference, good and evil, right and wrong; although there are few specific examples where all would agree.

 

From the 21 Nails, a dzogchen text from the Bön canon:

 

Self-originated primordial wisdom is the base.

The five poisonous mental afflictions are the dynamic energy.

Chasing after them is the way you are deluded.

Viewing them as deficient is the error.

Leaving them as they are is the method.

Freeing them into vastness is the path.

Non-duality is the realization

[silent thunder]

This quote by Harry Patch, who at the time was the last surviving Brit to serve in ww1.

On some big hoopla military oorah day, they brought him out in his wheelchair, in uniform and then thrusting a microphone in his face amid all the hubub asked him promptingly  "So Harry.  How do you feel about all this?"

 

His answer is pure insight.

 

 

Legalizing anything does not alter its nature.  It reveals our interpretation of and relationship to it.

[old3bob]

3 hours ago, silent thunder said:

This quote by Harry Patch, who at the time was the last surviving Brit to serve in ww1.

On some big hoopla military oorah day, they brought him out in his wheelchair, in uniform and then thrusting a microphone in his face amid all the hubub asked him promptingly  "So Harry.  How do you feel about all this?"

 

His answer is pure insight.

 

 

Legalizing anything does not alter its nature.  It reveals our interpretation of and relationship to it.

 

the problem to me is that that doesn't nearly cover it, for instance all the myriad and normally unseen forces behind the politicians and peoples that are  in play should also settle their differences...but no its battlefield  earth between the beings and forces of darkness and light. (with humans just or mainly being an influenced aspect of that)

Edited December 23, 2021 by old3bob

[old3bob]

3 hours ago, steve said:

My perspective is that good/evil - right/wrong exist, but solely within human judgement. This is captured in passages like those regarding straw dogs in DDJ. In Buddhism, it is related to the 2 Truths. Good/bad is only relevant to the truth of relative existence. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the truth of absolute existence. Like Dao, the Natural State allows for all expressions and manifestations equally and without preference or judgement. From our human perspective, there is clearly judgement and preference, good and evil, right and wrong; although there are few specific examples where all would agree.

 

From the 21 Nails, a dzogchen text from the Bön canon:

 

Self-originated primordial wisdom is the base.

The five poisonous mental afflictions are the dynamic energy.

Chasing after them is the way you are deluded.

Viewing them as deficient is the error.

Leaving them as they are is the method.

Freeing them into vastness is the path.

Non-duality is the realization

 

To me the Noble 8 fold path and other dharma teachings  do not use high sounding and  wishy-washy forms of sideways nihilism for the dharmic or non dharmic actions and or voices that they point to along with the results related to or for  same.

Edited December 23, 2021 by old3bob

[Nungali]

13 hours ago, helpfuldemon said:

Ones true nature changes over time with experience and education.  In the end the true nature is up in the air, and at the time of death will probably be different than when they were younger.

 

It might take some time for one's true nature to be revealed , just because you and  some other e people get confused about what it is does not mean it does not apply to those that are clear on it .

 

Also it might not be a specific thing   but a general thing  where many manifestations of that nature might be possible . eg. if one's true nature is to be a carer  one could end up as a nurse, a mother ,  a dog trainer ,   etc .

 

 

13 hours ago, helpfuldemon said:

 

People usually need to experience the Evil of crime upon themselves before realizing why it is a crime, otherwise it is just someone else's opinion on right and wrong.

 

Let's make that   ' some people  '    ......   I can form my own ideas of right and wrong , thanks .   And I can easily recognise crime committed against another that isnt me .

 

 

[Nungali]

5 hours ago, helpfuldemon said:

There is no "True Self".  It's all conditioning.

 

Depending on what you mean by  'conditioning '  .... of course there is .  Just because conditioning plays such a big part, that doesnt mean that there is no original form that gets conditioned .

 

I was subject to all sorts of conditioning in my childhood and youth , which I refused and did not take  .....   so if it is 'all conditioning' , what part of  'me'  rejected a system  'I' didnt want ?

 

We do not come here as a totally blank slate ... which is what you are inferring . 

 

When you get some life experience , especially with very young children ... and a  little bit more awareness of what is going on in others , then you will realise this . 

[steve]

4 hours ago, old3bob said:

 

To me the Noble 8 fold path and other dharma teachings  do not use high sounding and  wishy-washy forms of sideways nihilism for the dharmic or non dharmic actions and or voices that they point to along with the results related to or for  same.

 

I assume you’re criticizing the passage from the 21 Nails. Or my perspective? You weren’t clear. Not everyone has a connection to every wisdom teaching. That’s no reason to attack. Unless, I guess, if you feel the words are bad or evil, or threatening in some way.

 

My teacher once gave me a piece of advice I’ve found very powerful. Take it or leave it as you wish. If I disagree or don’t understand something in the wisdom teachings, always best to be open and patient and allow the possibility it might speak to me at some point. Otherwise I’m closing myself off to so much potential!

 

To me, this passage is a powerful, practical instruction and explication of the entire dzogchen teaching - view, path, and result. A direct way to touch the heart of reality. If it doesn’t speak to you, cool.

 

Disparaging criticism? Totally unnecessary…

[Eduardo]

The universe cannot be understood using our moral or religious beliefs.

You will always get hurt following that path.
Only mathematics can help us understand reality.

[old3bob]

20 hours ago, steve said:

 

I assume you’re criticizing the passage from the 21 Nails. Or my perspective? You weren’t clear. Not everyone has a connection to every wisdom teaching. That’s no reason to attack. Unless, I guess, if you feel the words are bad or evil, or threatening in some way.

 

My teacher once gave me a piece of advice I’ve found very powerful. Take it or leave it as you wish. If I disagree or don’t understand something in the wisdom teachings, always best to be open and patient and allow the possibility it might speak to me at some point. Otherwise I’m closing myself off to so much potential!

 

To me, this passage is a powerful, practical instruction and explication of the entire dzogchen teaching - view, path, and result. A direct way to touch the heart of reality. If it doesn’t speak to you, cool.

 

Disparaging criticism? Totally unnecessary…

 

"The steps of the Noble Eightfold Path are Right Understanding, Right Thought, Right Speech, Right Action, Right Livelihood, Right Effort, Right Mindfulness and Right Concentration" 

 

To me or I'd say a nihilistic sounding umbrella is counter to all the Rights taught above and which are not equal to wrongs.  As for That which is beyond all categories - evil per dharma can not begin to reach there from the netherworlds...while good or the Right per dharma takes one to Its threshold.  "It" also arises in manifestation through all the Rights mentioned above.  

 

 

 

Edited December 24, 2021 by old3bob

[steve]

What makes you think of nihilism?

[old3bob]

20 hours ago, steve said:

 

I assume you’re criticizing the passage from the 21 Nails. Or my perspective? You weren’t clear. Not everyone has a connection to every wisdom teaching. That’s no reason to attack. Unless, I guess, if you feel the words are bad or evil, or threatening in some way.

 

My teacher once gave me a piece of advice I’ve found very powerful. Take it or leave it as you wish. If I disagree or don’t understand something in the wisdom teachings, always best to be open and patient and allow the possibility it might speak to me at some point. Otherwise I’m closing myself off to so much potential!

 

To me, this passage is a powerful, practical instruction and explication of the entire dzogchen teaching - view, path, and result. A direct way to touch the heart of reality. If it doesn’t speak to you, cool.

 

Disparaging criticism? Totally unnecessary…

 

my post started with a "to me" so please don't take it as otherwise - although I see the implications you've mentioned and apologize for what could be taken as disparaging via my lack of Right speech ... (and agreed that it comes back to the "take it or leave it" saying)  

 

Anyway and to your question about nihilism... I'm not yet ready to go into being that I also have a tangential question on the topic.  Is a "Buddha", using the generic and spiritual meaning of the word,  (thus a being who could be associated with Buddhism, Hinduism, or any other number of "eastern" or "western" schools)  just or only a human being that is limited  to human judgement? 

Edited December 24, 2021 by old3bob

[steve]

10 hours ago, old3bob said:

 

my post started with a "to me" so please don't take it as otherwise - although I see the implications you've mentioned and apologize for what could be taken as disparaging via my lack of Right speech ... (and agreed that it comes back to the "take it or leave it" saying)  

Thank you

 

10 hours ago, old3bob said:

 

Anyway and to your question about nihilism... I'm not yet ready to go into being that I also have a tangential question on the topic.  Is a "Buddha", using the generic and spiritual meaning of the word,  (thus a being who could be associated with Buddhism, Hinduism, or any other number of "eastern" or "western" schools)  just or only a human being that is limited  to human judgement? 

I’ll take your question as rhetorical.

 

Happy Christmas!

 

[old3bob]

11 minutes ago, steve said:

Thank you

 

I’ll take your question as rhetorical.

 

Happy Christmas!

 

 

Thanks and Merry Christmas also!   And yes rhetorical to some, conceptual to some, experiential to some, impossible to some,  and who knows to some,  etc...

[Daniel]

On 12/23/2021 at 8:49 AM, silent thunder said:

This quote by Harry Patch, who at the time was the last surviving Brit to serve in ww1.

On some big hoopla military oorah day, they brought him out in his wheelchair, in uniform and then thrusting a microphone in his face amid all the hubub asked him promptingly  "So Harry.  How do you feel about all this?"

 

His answer is pure insight.

 

 

Legalizing anything does not alter its nature.  It reveals our interpretation of and relationship to it.

 

Doesn't this quote assume that Murder is wrong?

 

Apologies for the brevity, I'm posting from my phone.

[thelerner]

Thing w/ Harry Patch's quote is, if the advice was taken literally the 'righteous' countries that defended w/ their politicians would be quickly wiped out, invaded and at the mercy of the less righteous country who used 100,000 soldiers instead. 

 

Or if 100% followed it, then 'Might would make Right' and the government with the stronger tougher meaner leaders could take over other countries if they so wished. 

 

hmnn, the original sentiment does have some wisdom in it.. maybe simply putting politicians on or close to the front lines would be good enough. 

 

To the OP, I agree with his sentiment. 

In the normal course of life, we can over personalize things and mix up good and bad.. cause we don't know everything or how things will turn out.  Still, there are egregious acts that are bad and evil.  Ones that people should guard and fight against.  

 

 

Edited December 25, 2021 by thelerner

[silent thunder]

5 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

Doesn't this quote assume that Murder is wrong?

 

Apologies for the brevity, I'm posting from my phone.

It exemplifies the dichotomy and the lack of a clear moral status.

Some in society honor and worship soldiers for murder.

Some abhor them.

Some soldiers bask in the praise.

Others loathe participating in it and just want to be home.

 

I find his quote exemplifies the lack of objectivity in the concept of righteous murder.

 

 

 

 

 

[old3bob]

a true warrior does not murder with or in an evil, twisted sense...thus the term murder does not apply in their case.

also cowardice as a pretense for non-violence results in crawling on one's belly in fear while those needing protection perish.

[silent thunder]

Yikes bob.  What a sad thing to read early in the morning.

Back on ignore you go.

[old3bob]

18 minutes ago, silent thunder said:

Yikes bob.  What a sad thing to read early in the morning.

Back on ignore you go.

 

Lord Rama and Gandhi are examples of true warriors in different contexts and there are thousands of others...no sadness there imo!  Btw to me there is no such thing as righteous murder... but there are righteous warriors that defend those in need and as a last resort may have to kill or make a stand and suffer death (like Gandhi).   I believe the historic Buddha also talked along these lines and lets not forget the teachings of Lord Krishna in the Bhagavad Gita. 

 

obviously we are not on the same page?

Edited December 25, 2021 by old3bob