Do right and wrong / good and evil exist

[helpfuldemon]

No, they don't.  It all breaks down when there is no good or evil.

[Feral]

Good and Evil do exist. Crime and Punishment is a whole other can of worms. We should be careful not to confuse the two.  

[steve]

1 hour ago, Daniel said:

 

Yes, if God exists and is omnipotent then God is ultimately responsible.  But it still could be for the good.  From the Abrahamic perspective, people have the ability via freewill to overcome the inner evil impulse.  It's a great challenge which renders a great reward. 

 

And when they don’t or can’t (assuming one believes in free will, of course), then countless innocents suffer. A stiff price to pay for a lesson in morality and ethics.

[silent thunder]

2 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

The heart of good lies in actions bereft of personal benefit.  The classic example is charity.  Regarding justification for actions which derive benefit; perhaps it is in the pursuit of life, liberty, and happiness which doesn't cause harm.

Oh my...

 

Yea, we're done here mate.

 

[liminal_luke]

2 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

The heart of good lies in actions bereft of personal benefit.

 

There's this idea that actions that result in benefit are "good"  -- unless the actor is the beneficiary.  I'm not so sure.  So many people these days struggle with self-hate and find it challenging to do things that benefit themselves.  These same people often find it easier to do things that bring benefits to others, often at their own expense.  In some circumstances giving to others might actually be "bad" and doing things to further ourselves might be "good."  I'm not convinced that valuing the welfare of others over our own welfare is the morally superior position.

[helpfuldemon]

If a bullet was intended for another person, and you jumped in front of it, are you doing the morally correct action?  Perhaps the bullet was deserved?  Who will take care of your family when you are gone, the original target?  What if you are able to do more for the world than the target could have?  

[helpfuldemon]

1 hour ago, steve said:

 

And when they don’t or can’t (assuming one believes in free will, of course), then countless innocents suffer. A stiff price to pay for a lesson in morality and ethics.

I don't personally believe morality is subjective, but I cannot say that it is the foundation for our experiences, though it is a satisfying idea to think that this is all just some kind of test of righteousness, though righteousness is hard to define.

[Cleansox]

2 hours ago, Daniel said:

For those that don't believe good and evil exist, does that mean de ( virtue ) doesn't exist as well?

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_(Chinese)

Did you read it before posting it? 

I found it a bit hard to fit in the complexity of "de" in the discussion about good and evil. 

[old3bob]

some of us have superior stands than others... and you know who you are,  

[old3bob]

I know, ....if we make a criticism then it often goes that it also applies to us, lol   

Edited December 29, 2021 by old3bob

[natural]

39 minutes ago, old3bob said:

I know, ....if we make a criticism then it often goes that it also applies to us, lol   

 

Looking in the mirror, reveals a lot...

If we can stand for it, it is well worthwhile.

[steve]

1 hour ago, natural said:

 

Looking in the mirror, reveals a lot...

If we can stand for it, it is well worthwhile.

 

DaoBums is a good mirror.

 

[Daniel]

5 hours ago, silent thunder said:

Oh my...

 

Yea, we're done here mate.

 

 

Well... it would be nice to know why...

[Daniel]

4 hours ago, Cleansox said:

Did you read it before posting it? 

I found it a bit hard to fit in the complexity of "de" in the discussion about good and evil. 

 

yes, I read it.  ignoring the complexity of "de", replacing it with virtue.  In your opinion, does virtue exist?

[Daniel]

5 hours ago, steve said:

 

And when they don’t or can’t (assuming one believes in free will, of course), then countless innocents suffer. A stiff price to pay for a lesson in morality and ethics.

 

OTOH, this system would encourage improvement over perfection.

[steve]

9 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

The heart of good lies in actions bereft of personal benefit.  The classic example is charity.  Regarding justification for actions which derive benefit; perhaps it is in the pursuit of life, liberty, and happiness which doesn't cause harm.

 

Charity is mostly enlightened self-interest.

 

In the samsaric sense, it is giving ourselves the pleasure and benefit of helping others. There is nothing wrong with it when truly, or nearly, self-less but it needs to be seen for what it is. Especially when we give others what we feel they need rather than what they truly need, which is a toxic form of charity. We first need to tend to ourselves and be extremely open and healthy to truly know how best to help others.

 

In the absolute sense, it is authentic Bodhicitta which perhaps can be called Self-interest, or Self-awareness. Realization of non-duality, non-obstruction of primordial empathy and compassion.

[Daniel]

1 hour ago, steve said:

 

Charity is mostly enlightened self-interest.

 

In the samsaric sense, it is giving ourselves the pleasure and benefit of helping others. There is nothing wrong with it when truly, or nearly, self-less but it needs to be seen for what it is. Especially when we give others what we feel they need rather than what they truly need, which is a toxic form of charity. We first need to tend to ourselves and be extremely open and healthy to truly know how best to help others.

 

In the absolute sense, it is authentic Bodhicitta which perhaps can be called Self-interest, or Self-awareness. Realization of non-duality, non-obstruction of primordial empathy and compassion.

 

Thank you, that makes sense to me.  is it correct to say primordial empathy and compassion are good?  If not, why not?

[old3bob]

1. 1. God is Not real.

1. 2. God is  Not unreal.

1. 3. God is Not both real and unreal.

1. 4. God is Not neither real nor unreal.

logic is only useful up to a point....

[old3bob]

and we sometimes ask ourselves how could "God" allow this or that and not do anything about it!

 

A simple analogy if you will:  suppose we could ask the sun how could it allow what is happening with various terrestrial conditions on the earth and why is it not doing anything about it...?   Well for one one thing if the sun gets close to the earth,  as the earth presently is, it can not take that much radiation and will burn up,  likewise who wants to get to close to God as they presently are and jump at the risk of being burned by forms of Gods radiation ?     (thus not having zero resistance to "God", with resistance causing heat, which is not all that unlike of what can happen in electrical circuits)

[Nungali]

15 hours ago, old3bob said:

1. 1. God is Not real.

1. 2. God is  Not unreal.

1. 3. God is Not both real and unreal.

1. 4. God is Not neither real nor unreal.

logic is only useful up to a point....

 

 

you left out

 

1.5 . God is none of the above   .

 

1.6  . God is all of the above .

 

1.7  God is neither none of the above or all of the above .

 

1.8    God is both .......

Edited December 30, 2021 by Nungali

[old3bob]

6 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

 

you left out

 

1.5 . God is none of the above   .

 

1.6  . God is all of the above .

 

1.7  God is neither none of the above or all of the above .

 

1.8    God is both .......

 

same idea basically...besides the house is on fire.

Edited December 30, 2021 by old3bob

[Nungali]

2.2 .  The house is not on fire.

2.3    The house is both not on fire and  on fire.

2.4     The house is neither not on .......

[old3bob]

"we didn't start the fire, no we didn't light it but we tried to fight it".... 

 

 

"There but for the grace of God, go I"

Edited December 30, 2021 by old3bob

[steve]

On 12/29/2021 at 11:04 PM, Daniel said:

 

Thank you, that makes sense to me.  is it correct to say primordial empathy and compassion are good?  If not, why not?

 

It comes back to perspective. 

edited 

I like manitou’s response better than mine.

 

[manitou]

It's all subjective.  Right and wrong, good and evil, are from one's own perspective.  When the true self is found, there is no question.  Looking to holy books or holy people for answers is no longer viable.  It's intrinsic and it comes naturally.