Taiji Bum

Modern Taijiquan Sucks!

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It is difficult to argue against this. Unfortunately the modern student pretty much wants it all and wants it now.

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Edit:  Oops... didn't realize this youtuber and OP seem to be the same person?  In which case I withdraw my comments.

Edited by Taomeow
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There is no modern taiji if it is truly taiji. There are many different ways to approach it according to need, time,  and desire.

 

Teaching methods have changed over the years to reflect students interest and try to provide a more open environment from which the student can learn from.

 

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and if it is modern and not lineage, it's not taiji, it's wushu, a sports/performance art, much like gymnastics or ballet, or else god only knows what.)  

 

This is not really true I no longer call what I do taiji but many people by feeling and seeing it,  name it as such.

 

For me the name no longer matters.

Edited by windwalker
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99% of the time yes....i have only seen 1 or 2 modern taiji players who were true warriors. They all had old school fucking killer teachers. :)

Edited by WayofChi
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1 hour ago, WayofChi said:

99% of the time yes....i have only seen 1 or 2 modern taiji players who were true warriors. They all had old school fucking killer teachers. :)

 

Who are they?

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3 hours ago, WayofChi said:

99% of the time yes....i have only seen 1 or 2 modern taiji players who were true warriors. They all had old school fucking killer teachers. :)

 

Can you qualify your experience to support your statement. 

what "old  school fucking killer teachers" :o have you studied from  or met?

Edited by windwalker

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16 hours ago, WayofChi said:

99% of the time yes....i have only seen 1 or 2 modern taiji players who were true warriors. They all had old school fucking killer teachers. :)

Same here. 26 years ago I trained with an Aikido dude at Ft Bragg. There was a small Special Forces Aikido club there, but they did a little Taijiquan as well. My very  first exposure to Taijiquan was at Ft Campbell in 1985. When I was first studying Taijiquan I had no idea it was primarily used for health and spirituality. It was all about fighting and was super similar to Judo in its sparring. You don't see that much anymore.

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I agree, most modern taijiquan much like modern aikido sucks. I trained in a pre-WW2 lineage in Stockton, CA and we were expected to defend ourselves from the readily apparent violence. It did save my life from a knife-wielding attacker in my teens. Little did I know that most aikido-ka couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag until about 3rd dan.

 

I drunk the Kool-Aid when I first started training Chen but had my illusions quickly dissipated by a former Marine special forces soldier and another martial artist. The Marine showed me in no uncertain terms that neigong was not necessary to kill someone and that launching someone 15 feet was pretty much useless against a determined attacker. The other martial artist was a champion TKD fighter and had trained with a lot of today's big names in the internals that were just students then. When it came down to it he pretty much shat all over taiji and recommended I learn bagua and play with the Filipino guys with sticks and knives and get on the ground with the Brazilians.

Taijiquan is a martial art - a lot of what gets attached to it on the other hand...

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On 12/26/2017 at 7:37 AM, Chang said:

It is difficult to argue against this. Unfortunately the modern student pretty much wants it all and wants it now.

 

Actually his premise is not historically correct.

 

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In 1916 he joined the Beijing Sports Lecture Hall (which included such luminaries as Wu Jian Quan, Yang Cheng Fu and Li Jing Lin) where he taught classes on both the martial arts and Chinese philosophy.  The later subject was calculated to appeal to a more educated middle class audience, so this is clear indication that Sun was attempting to change the demographic profile of the martial arts.

 

A number or reformers during this period concluded that for the martial arts to survive they had to become more appealing to educated middle class individuals.  Sun’s emphasis on health and self-cultivation was one way of accomplishing this goal.  The Jingwu strategy of offering classes on photography or western sports was another.  This period of time is also important for the development of the five modern styles of Taiji, including Sun Lutang’s own offering that combines the essential insights of Taiji, Xingyi and Bagua.   https://chinesemartialstudies.com/2013/01/07/lives-of-the-chinese-martial-artists-4-sun-lutang-and-the-invention-of-the-traditional-chinese-martial-arts-part-i/

 

 

What changed was the need, the teachers changed the teaching reflecting this.,  in so doing actually preserved much of what would have been lost.  Its still available for those who are true seekers.and have the eye to see it. 

Edited by windwalker
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11 hours ago, GreytoWhite said:

Honestly, if I were looking to learn taiji I'd just go to one of Sam Chin's Zhong Xin Dao (I Liq Chuan) classes.

 

How would you learn taiji from someone teaching I Liq quan.

Edited by windwalker
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15 hours ago, windwalker said:

 

How would you learn taiji from someone teaching I Liq quan.

 

Although there's some choreography from Hakka stuff its theory and methods are pretty much the same. Although Han Jingchen thinks that the Chins may have learned Yiquan somewhere.

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We practice it in context of fighting, but we don't spar. I do other martial arts for that.

 

But yes, you're right. I started with my partner about a year ago and when asking if we wanted to continue with the "beginners class", we said yes. Year one we learnt a form, year two, we will be practicing more and more to actually get it right!

 

Sure, we have sword forms and fan forms, but my practice this lunch time was about 6 moves, over and over again....as opposed to a full 40 minute long form!

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On 12/29/2017 at 10:59 AM, GreytoWhite said:

 

Although there's some choreography from Hakka stuff its theory and methods are pretty much the same. Although Han Jingchen thinks that the Chins may have learned Yiquan somewhere.

 

A lot of what I see them do reminds me of southern mantis which I believe the chin family might of had some contact with. all CMA is very interesting...styles develop according to need, and go with out a need. 

 

The question most should ask when choosing is,  "what is the need"

 

My own experience was with a kung fu bother of mine Roger Haygood. http://www.bambootemple.com/new-page-26.htm

Edited by windwalker

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The delivery mechanism of arts like FMA and taijiquan are similar. They are so alike that it becomes hard to discern one from the other without the “goods”. If one can deliver internal power then FMA gives practical aspect of delivering it.

 

Imho taijiquan is not about methods and techniques. At its lowest level, It is about developing power and delivering power. Each of the 8 powers come out of two - Peng and lu. If one develops good peng and lu, then everything falls into place naturally. 

 

Taijiquan becomes Taiji Dao after that point. It is no longer about martial skill. It is about spiritual cultivation and transformation. 

 

I learnt karate, aikido and eventually taijiquan. Then my friend started showing me FMA. Every concept that I learnt in form and push hands in taijiquan I was able to apply in FMA context. Without knowing it. Taijiquan is sneaky that way...if we stay with it long enough it changes us in ways we aren’t even aware of. 

 

For instance, if you do the taiji sword form and some two person work , and then someone shows you FMA largo Mano, you might surprise yourself by just doing what is needed without even learning the rules of largo Mano.

 

Or something like sinawali, which without the two sticks is empty hand work. You might be surprised to know how to apply taiji power to it naturally without even thinking.

 

I’m sure others here have had similar experiences?

 

 

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Aye, my friend that learned bagua and then learned from Angel Cabales used to say that the two fit hand in glove with each other but that the bagua usually produced more power. I've played with some local students of Sam Buot and they're quicker than I am at their drills but I've thrown some pretty big guys with very little effort.

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On 08.01.2018 at 10:04 PM, GreytoWhite said:

bagua usually produced more power.

Agree with that, sometimes after hour of bagua circling it feels like you can go through someone without even noticing.
However I do prefere Taiji for it is more balanced for me and makes my body and spirit stronger.

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Who really cares about fighting ?   The only really purpose to fighting as part of Taiji is to sanity check what you are doing, to make sure you are not a fing bullshit artist.  That's the reason for "application".   It's not to become good at fighting other humans or beasts of Earth, because your chances of success are going to be low .... you can be shot or cut easily, randomly.   Fighting is not an intelligent approach to living in a deranged world.

 

Normally 1 or 2 years are spent doing Zhan Zhuang.  And practices gradually added.    The video that the OP posted, this man is talknig about spending 15 minutes doing a short form, whilst during breaks at work.   Well that's stupid.   Better to do ZZ for 15 minutes, and then when you work you retain the form of ZZ, in whatever position you work.   Then it becomes continuous throughout the day, you leave 5% of your awareness to check that you are in ZZ Sung, all day or whatever you can do.

 

Silk Reeling is where to go next.   Forget about the fing forms.   Just do the intermediary movements, Silk Reeling or whatever the equivalent is in Yang, like Yang stepping.   Just do that.   Forget everything else.

 

Push hands, well if you are with intelligent people you can do that, otherwise it's just for idiots.

 

When there are 24 hours in the day there are no limits to what can be achieved when you go very slowly.

Then when it is time to die, you continue with Sung. 

Then Existence will remember you for living as a Man.

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It's true that in Taiji, as in so many other martial arts, much was lost somewhere on the way - insofar it has ever been known to begin with, except perhaps to a few of the master's most trusted students! While some modern (post-modern?) instructors make some of that knowledge more widely available today - pretty much for the first time in history!

 

What this boils down to is that what matters more than what kind of style (old or new) you are studying is the quality of the instruction you are receiving.

 

The following is an example of a brilliant instructor:

 

 

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