Zen - worthless practice due to a dramatic misunderstanding?

[silent thunder]

What bird is screeching?
Fools talk while Sages listen.
Whose voice is that now?

[Brian]

With faulty knowledge, the whole premise becomes faulty. Thats quite evident - faulty knowledge cannot bring about correct understanding, which is the logical conclusion. 

 

Understanding comes from direct experience. Since you are taking this subject of Bodhidharma and making comparisons to others of the Zen lineage at face value, and third party accounts and recounts, assumptions and hearsay, which i could be mistaken unless you had actually witnessed this rock in person, it can be safely concluded that your deference to the term 'genius' is just as shaky. I even doubt you have met any Zen masters and find out more about this before firing from the hip as per your style. 

 

Its like me saying rabbits have horns, so now everyone who says otherwise will have to find every single rabbit that exists or have ever existed, or will ever exist for that matter, to prove they don't in fact. And if you can't find every single rabbit to prove your point, your objection is invalid?? Seems like a silly game you are playing. 

Found one...

 

[thelerner]

I saw somewhere that Zen is missing heart practice. From my experience they also repress energetic aspect. They like to attain only the Self

If you want to experience Zen with heart, listen to the zen inspired dharma talks on infinitesmile.org.  Excellent instructions on the art of living and awareness, sitting and appreciating the foibles of life. 

 

It doesn't seem like Zen includes energy practices, but one can find other arts that do, if interested.  Glenn Morris wrote that they did but only at a high level. 

Edited May 24, 2016 by thelerner

[RigdzinTrinley]

Found one...

*puts on his smarty pants

 

if a rabbit would have horns - then it is no longer called a rabbit

 

so rabbit's horns are still not an "object of knowledge" (shes bya) that could be perceived by a direct valid cognition

 

*puts off his smarty pants - surprise

Edited May 24, 2016 by RigdzinTrinley

[RigdzinTrinley]

I have a very strange relationships with horns of a rabbit and children of barren woman

[Brian]

*puts on his smarty pants

 

if a rabbit would have horns - then it is no longer called a rabbit

 

so rabbit's horns are still not an "object of knowledge" (shes bya) that could be perceived by a direct valid cognition

 

*puts off his smarty pants - surprise

Some of them fly, too:

[RigdzinTrinley]

while translating madhyamika teachings for one of my teachers in McLoedGanj, I found this great picture of a horned rabbit - I felt I should print it - frame it and give it to rinpoche after the teachings are finished and proclaim with a triumphant smile on my lips "there I found a rabbit with a horn Rinpoche!"

 

the next morning he explaiend how if a rabbit would grow horns - it wouldn't be a rabbit anymore

 

I understood that Rinpoche would not like my offering, and gave up the idea of printing and framing jabberwooooooky

Edited May 24, 2016 by RigdzinTrinley

[Wells]

.

Edited June 4, 2016 by Wells

[Apech]

Every conscious being has it.

Buddhism 101.

 

Mu.

[Bud Jetsun]

Body is some fleeting clump of energy on loan. No matter the mechanisms involved, it will be paid back perfectly atom for atom.

 

If it's fed to vultures, burned, buried, or turns to light it ultimately doesn't matter.

 

If while the body device is still on loan in a beings temporary care and it's kept unused in a cave, this is much opportunity to help others traded for selfish pursuit of body death siddhas.

 

Enlightenment is a state of being without delusion. Physical phenomena is an unrelated optional addition.

 

Ensured failure of any practice is the moment a being tries to follow another beings path, no matter if it's labeled Zen or Buddhist, Taoist etc. From that moment it's idolatry and self-delusion practice rather than liberation.

 

Unlimited Love,

-Bud

[Zhongyongdaoist]

 

5. Heaven immortal – Tian Xian ( 天仙 )

Let me remind you that even the previous stage can be stretched on endlessly. But the immortal spirit still has not- transformed body. Therefore there remains the possibility of realization of the highest stage which is possible on Earth according to alchemy - the transformation of this body in the body of light. This is the most difficult task because it requires about 9 -10 years of immobility. It should be provided either by faithful pupils and adherents, The Teacher, or by concealment by having immured in a cave according to certain rules. After its implementation the body and the spirit merge together in the "body" of light and when the achiever leaves the world nothing is left (except for remaining things as in case of with Bodhidharma’s shoe). If due to some reasons the practitioner does not reach the highest stage, he may either himself at his will or under certain circumstances "get rid of the corpse." Depending of the achieved level his left body may not be susceptible to decay but self-mummify or even burn from the inner fire.

 

This is apparently a quote from "Immortality in Taoist alchemy. Levels of achievements" by Denis Belobragin.

 

Whatever one may want to think about this and Zen, according to Taoist Yoga; Alchemy and Immortality, it is sound Daoist internal alchemy:

 

 

Chapter 16 Appearing in Space, p.174 - 176

 

My master Liao K'ung said: 'The return to nothingness is achieved in the final stage of training in which the practiser, while maintaining serenity of heart, lets the all-embracing positive spirit leave his bodily form to appear in the world and to perform its work of salvation such as alleviating human sufferings, curing the sick, etc. and then re-enter its original cavity (tsu ch'iao, between and behind the eyes) in order to be preserved in the ocean of (essential) nature. It should not be allowed again to leave the body, which now should be closed and further sublimated in order to enter the spiritual body which comprises (essential) nature and (eternal) life in their prenatal condition. The physical body is then further sublimated so that it is neither existing nor nonexistent, neither form nor void, neither within nor without, neither coming nor going, and neither beginning nor ending. This is done with the same care that a dragon nurtures its pearl while remaining hidden and motionless, and because of which a sitting hen refuses to leave her eggs; this condition of quiet and stillness should be held until it reaches its highest degree.'

 

All previous achievements such as appearing in countless transformation bodies riding on dragons and storks¹, walking on the sun and playing with the moon, as well as

 

Footnote: 1 Dragon and stork are emblems of longevity.

 

thousands of transmutations should now be gathered in the original cavity of spirit (between and behind the eyes) in order to be reduced to the state of complete stillness and extinction. This is called the condition of a hibernating dragon. It leads to the complete extinction (of all phenomena) which should be carefully maintained in order to prevent positive spirit from going out (leaving the body), so that it can be further sublimated to reach its highest degree. This continual sublimation will result in deeper concealment of the spiritual fire in the light of vitality so that the positive spirit will be kept in its original cavity (tsu ch'iao). As time passes while dwelling in utter serenity, the true fire of positive spirit will develop fully and radiate inside and outside its cavity to become all-embracing, shining on heaven, earth and myriad things which will appear within its light.

 

The training should continue no matter how long it takes until the four elements' (that make the body) scatter, and space pulverises leaving no traces behind; this is the golden immortal stage of the indestructible diamond-body. This is the ultimate achievement of the training which now comes to an end.

(Taoist Yoga; Alchemy and Immortality, Lu K'uan Yü, Samuel Weiser 1970, Emphasis mine, ZYD)

 

Also as a note the Ur-text from which this comes, Xingming guizhi (性命圭旨) is, as Daniel Burton-Rose makes clear in his Master's thesis, a sycretic work written by Confucians and intended to be a guide to cultivation that crossed sectarian divisions to unify Confucian, Daoist and Buddhist cultivation in a single work.  Burton's Rose's thesis can be read here:

 

Integrating Inner Alchemy into Late Ming Cultural History etc.

 

Chapter Two is most important for the discussion of the Ruist, i.e. Confucian aspects of its background and authorship.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edit: While quoting the above I noticed that the Taoist Yoga book title needed to be Italicized and have so corrected it.

Edited June 14, 2016 by Zhongyongdaoist

[RigdzinTrinley]

Mu.

 

Woof Woof

[Apech]

Woof Woof

 

 

Barking up the wrong tree there.

[Cheshire Cat]

Barking up the wrong tree there.

 

It's not the barking up the tree nor the barking up the flag. It's the barking up the Mind.

(Ch'an Master Foyan -more or less-, 1107 -  Song Dynasty)

Edited May 27, 2016 by Cheshire Cat

[steve]

Mu.

 

Ni!

[thelerner]

 

Enlightenment is a state of being without delusion. Physical phenomena is an unrelated optional addition.

 

Ensured failure of any practice is the moment a being tries to follow another beings path, no matter if it's labeled Zen or Buddhist, Taoist etc. From that moment it's idolatry and self-delusion practice rather than liberation.

 

Unlimited Love,

-Bud

Good, but as long as we don't make a path a tight rope, moving along the way respected elders mapped out, might get you to scenic areas a little faster then meandering (& circling) on your own.  Once there, its certainly good to be your own person and let the path become a garden. 

[joeblast]

I'm pretty sure the reason I was never any good at skateboarding was that I never hung around with any really good skateboarders while growing up

[Wells]

.

Edited June 4, 2016 by Wells

[Walker]

Zen practice has helped God-knows-how-many people pierce through their neurotic obsessions with fantasies and delusions, calm their raging, restless minds, and plant their feet on solid dirt.

 

Unfortunately, for several centuries now, nobody in the tradition has turned into anything cooler than a level 3 stardust pixie pony with a bubble gum saddle or a snuggly wuggly muggly buggly little wittle cutey wootey care bear (waaaaa, so cuuuuuuttteee!). But even these lowly accomplishments are rare.

 

One must sigh: what a stupid fucking waste of time! As for me, guess what, suckers: I wanna be a rainbow, and when I turn into one, I'm not giving any of you any Skittles at all. So nyah.

 

Wonder what I need to learn to turn into after I'm a rainbow. Maybe a gas giant? Or a star, yeah, that's it, a shooting star! Ooh, dontcha just _love_ it?!

[Wells]

.

Edited June 4, 2016 by Wells

[Walker]

Hahaha, touché!

[Bud Jetsun]

Hakuin would probably agree Zen is a worthless practice.

 

First time reading I foolishly confused the Zen beauty for sarcasm.

 

Hakuin remains neither pleased nor displeased with your fine insight.

[Michael Sternbach]

I'm pretty sure the reason I was never any good at skateboarding was that I never hung around with any really good skateboarders while growing up

I'm pretty sure the reason was just insufficient practice.

[Bud Jetsun]

Good, but as long as we don't make a path a tight rope, moving along the way respected elders mapped out, might get you to scenic areas a little faster then meandering (& circling) on your own.  Once there, its certainly good to be your own person and let the path become a garden. 

 

 

Even if you keep walking seeking more and more fertile soil, even if you keep planting the most beautiful seeds, you will never discover your garden if you continue walking away from it.

 

There was never something lacking from enjoying the most beautiful garden than concluding the choice to focus on aspects of personal discontentment rather than whole hearted appreciation of this one moment exactly as it is in Now.

 

Unlimited Love,

-Bud

[allinone]

fake positivity is bully trait.