Zen - worthless practice due to a dramatic misunderstanding?

[C T]

Obviously still not getting it. Again: I was talking about your understanding, not your knowledge.

If you are unable to understand that both is not one and the same,

how are you going to understand Dzogchen texts, which are written in such a way (as confirmed by highest level authors like Shardza Tashi Gyaltsen)

that only geniusses will be able to understand and apply the teachings correctly?

Well, you don't.

With faulty knowledge, the whole premise becomes faulty. Thats quite evident - faulty knowledge cannot bring about correct understanding, which is the logical conclusion. 

 

Understanding comes from direct experience. Since you are taking this subject of Bodhidharma and making comparisons to others of the Zen lineage at face value, and third party accounts and recounts, assumptions and hearsay, which i could be mistaken unless you had actually witnessed this rock in person, it can be safely concluded that your deference to the term 'genius' is just as shaky. I even doubt you have met any Zen masters and find out more about this before firing from the hip as per your style. 

 

Its like me saying rabbits have horns, so now everyone who says otherwise will have to find every single rabbit that exists or have ever existed, or will ever exist for that matter, to prove they don't in fact. And if you can't find every single rabbit to prove your point, your objection is invalid?? Seems like a silly game you are playing. 

[grassmountiansage]

This is interesting and there is a point to both arguements.

 

Damo was the 1st chinese patriarch of a line that came straight from buddha all of which attaining rainbow body.

 

The earliest descriptions of the Chán-lineage evolved into a continuous lineage from Śākyamuni Buddha to Bodhidharma. The idea of a line of descent from Śākyamuni Buddha is the basis for the distinctive lineage tradition of the Chán school. The Denkoroku, "Transmission of the Light", written by Keizan, gives 28 patriarchs in this transmission

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zen_lineage_charts

 

The last of this line in China was Hui Neng who attained rainbow body and left this world in 713ad

 

Then a few years later Padmasambhava was born in tibet and brought about the rainbow body practice to tibet where it has been since then.

Edited May 24, 2016 by grassmountiansage

[thelerner]

Bodhidharma is such a legendary figure that its hard to separate truth from fiction.  A rock where he 'burned' his image into seems more from the fictional side of things.  Mankind loves to turn great teachers into gods.  In this case its too bad since Zen is rooted in reality.

 

Speaking of reality if you have a teacher who can do stuff and you study with them diligently, getting feedback, and soaking up there lessons, there wah and traditions, become as hardcore as they are.. follow the path they took, then you may be able to do the things they did or not.  Reading books and stories its impossible to tell fact from fiction, especially when its not your native culture.  Real arts have minutiae that are subtle and easily missed. 

 

I don't think Zen gets mixed up in the 'power' controversies.  Its not about siddhis, its about creating a non dualistic mind that sees the world clearly.   No magic or powers.  More about subtraction then gains.  Yet the clarity it gives its practitioners moves them closer to being a whole human being.

 

 

 

add on> So if we were Buddhists .. when a sufficiently enlightened person dies their physical body disintegrates and this is the end of the cycle of rebirth (from Wikipedia).   If someone wants to become a holy man, great.  Lotta asceticism, long hours, study and sacrifice.  Maybe over lifetimes, and the payoff is death, completely dead, off the wheel, never to return..?  Don't know, not my religion. 

 

Wells, you don't want to study Zen because it won't gain you rainbow body, fine.  You want to study Tibetan Buddhism? Are you considering putting yourself under the discipleship of someone who's instructor attained Rainbow Body? 

 

Would they accept you?  Do you consider yourself a Tibetan Buddhist now, or are you hoping to side step the religion and find a meditative practice that gains you the ability without having to follow the actual religion!?

 

I wonder if right now there are Tibetans who want the 'powers' of various saints, seeking some prayer that'll wrangle them from heaven, but don't want to become Catholics.  Cause I assume most Catholics know there religion is not about those powers. 

Edited May 24, 2016 by thelerner

[Michael Sternbach]

I think the problem is that Zen masters neglect to cut their eyelids off, which would then turn into tea plants.

[Kubba]

I saw somewhere that Zen is missing heart practice. From my experience they also repress energetic aspect. They like to attain only the Self

Edited May 24, 2016 by Kubba

[C T]

I saw somewhere that Zen is missing heart practice. From my experience they also repress energetic aspect. They like to attain only the Self

 

 

Zen is a rich tradition with rich practitioners replete with realized patriachs, warriors, haiku poets, artisans, ceremonialists, etc. 

 

It is doubtful the statement you made depicts the tradition accurately. If anything, they look to primarily shed the self more than attain one. 

[Cheshire Cat]

I think the problem is that Zen masters neglect to cut their eyelids off, which would then turn into tea plants.

 

Exactly.

And unless science demonstrates that tea leaves contain human DNA, we can't be sure that Damo ever meditated at all.

 

 

 

[C T]

And unless one has gathered and investigated every single tea plant that ever existed and presently existing to verify, then there is no proof otherwise. lol

[Jetsun]

I saw somewhere that Zen is missing heart practice. From my experience they also repress energetic aspect. They like to attain only the Self

They don't repress any energetic aspect their policy is just to let energy work it's way out naturally over time, which there are advantages and disadvantages of doing. It could mean you have energetic issues over many years but then there is no risk of screwing yourself up with incorrect practice.

 

Also there is heart, it can be hard to locate it though as the tradition is often heavily mixed up with repressed aspects of Japanese culture.

[Wells]

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Edited June 4, 2016 by Wells

[Michael Sternbach]

They don't repress any energetic aspect their policy is just to let energy work it's way out naturally over time, which there are advantages and disadvantages of doing. It could mean you have energetic issues over many years but then there is no risk of screwing yourself up with incorrect practice.

Also there is heart, it can be hard to locate it though as the tradition is often heavily mixed up with repressed aspects of Japanese culture.

 

For instance, the zazen posture combined with proper breathing is designed to activate the whole energy system in a manner similar to the MCO. The energetic aspects are there, but Zen practitioners don't talk about them much (with the exception of the LDT sometimes) and rather look at their practice from different angles.

[Wells]

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Edited June 4, 2016 by Wells

[C T]

Please quote Zen source texts which confirm these claims,

which sound like new age quack to me!

 

there you go! 

[C T]

For instance, the zazen posture combined with proper breathing is designed to activate the whole energy system in a manner similar to the MCO. The energetic aspects are there, but Zen practitioners don't talk about them much (with the exception of the LDT sometimes) and rather look at their practice from different angles.

Exactly! But Wells don't buy this angle at all. He indicated many times that such are merely excuses and/or cop outs. 

 

There may or not have been Zen practitioners after Damo who may have attained to various levels of jalus. Imo its better to be open to such a possibility rather than be like the OP who's shut and bound by some sort of constrictive and opinionated mindset, which indicates that in fact the one who's searching for childish justifications is actually no one else but himself. But this is besides the point. The point is he has no first hand knowledge. He is not Zen, not Vajrayana, not Dzogchen, yet he tries to play in the same league, as if wanting to proof something or other. All that he posts here so far remains only in the sphere of speculation at best and i am saying this based on my belief that he does not yet have any concrete practice to back up his writings. 

[Jetsun]

It's debatable whether Bodhidharma even existed at all, so I wouldn't call it wise to stake your whole spiritual understanding on what he may or may not have said and done. There are plenty of incredible texts written by Zen masters over the years who explain what they realised and how they did it. The fact that they ignore phenomena and siddhis and other distractions is one of the elements of the Zen path which maintained its purity and allowed it to keep on living and keep on producing realised beings , (with periodic rejuvenation), through the centuries.

[Wells]

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Edited June 4, 2016 by Wells

[Apech]

Your intelligence and personality are such of a very common person.

I see a reincarnation of a dog for you.

 

A dog with buddha-nature?

[Michael Sternbach]

Please quote Zen source texts which confirm these claims,

which sound like new age quack to me!

 

There are some references in the German literature which I doubt you are familiar with (i.e. Werner Lind). There is also a passage in Kaplan's Three Pillars of Zen talking about various centres.

 

I don't know any references in ancient texts though. Which is hardly surprising, because comparative studies in spirituality are typically a modern aproach.

 

But actually, having been a practitioner first of Zen and then of energy based methods, I don't need any texts to "confirm" what my own experience told me in no uncertain terms.

 

I don't think that this would mean anything to you though, as I'm under the impression that you value book reading over living experience.

[C T]

Your intelligence and personality are such of a very common person.

I see a reincarnation of a dog for you.

gosh, it must have hurt (at least a little even) to get such a kind retort. 

 

Most dogs have better opportunities for advancing than a lot of humans actually. 

At least they dont have foul speech. 

[steve]

So, obviously Damo (Bodhidharma) achieved rainbow body (or the taoist equivanent of "heavenly immortality"),

but no Zen practitioner ever achieved the same since.

Well, aren't the Zen practitioners supposed to practice "facing the wall" as Domo did?

Then why do all of the fail to rise to the same accomplishment as he did?

 

I think the answer is obvious:

The founders of Zen, who intended to follow Domo's practice and example,

misunderstood completely what Domo was doing while "facing the wall"!

In other words: The Zen teachings base on a huge misunderstanding

and therefore Zen is worthless to follow Damo's example and spiritual development!

 

This - worthless post due to a dramatic misunderstanding

[Cookie Monster]

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Edited May 4, 2021 by Ocean Form

[joeblast]

study it long and hard, dorian.

 

[JohnC]

[WisteriaWinds]

Hakuin would probably agree Zen is a worthless practice.

[allinone]

It could be that facing the wall was a "paint it out and draw it red" example what you should do and expect. The expectation is you will see your own shadow.

 

 

 

 

The sixth level is called the "Manifest" because the bodhisattva clearly perceives the workings of dependent arising and directly understands "the signless" (Mtshan ma med pa, Tibetan. Animitta, Sanskrit). The signless refers to the fact that phenomena seem to possess their apparent qualities by way of their own nature, but when one examines this appearance one realizes that all qualities are merely mentally imputed and not a part of the nature of the objects they appear to characterize.

 

 

Edited May 24, 2016 by allinone