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  1. Daoist associations?

    Right, and the vows of Quanzhen Daoism were codified and prescribed to disciples. Whether Wang Chongyang was a hermit, a monk, or both while he was practicing alone in the Zhongnan Mountains is an interesting question, but it's not really the crux of this. When he concluded his (mostly) solo practice and began seeking disciples for his Complete Reality movement, mostly in Shandong and Shaanxi, he was most certainly initiated the ones who 出家/chujia/"left home" into a monastic life. Ma Danyang, who was the leader of the Quanzhen movement after Wang's passing as well as Qiu's primary teacher (Qiu Chuji was very young when he joined Wang Chongyang and barely exchanged words with his master, who viewed him as far from ready for real spiritual cultivation) was heavily into asceticism and promoted the monastic life, going so far as to come into disagreement with one of the other seven main disciples who founded a major monastery, which seemed to Ma as too luxurious (the other disciple--I forget which one, and I'm too busy to look it up, answered that this kind of fancy monastery allowed them to help more laypeople). When Qiu Chuji, who was much younger than all of the other disciples, completed his long period of retreat he continued the monastic ways of his two teachers, Wang and Ma. In part because of the influence he gained as a result of his visit to Genghis Khan, his sway over Daoism in the northern part of the Yuan dynasty was enormous (in the south, Zhengyi and a Zhengyi-derived movement called 玄教 were both powerful--Quanzhen monasteries could not be built in the southern reaches of the Yuan without Zhengyi approval). Thanks in part to Qiu's influence, the monastic Quanzhen lifestyle became widespread. Going all the way back to Wang Chongyang, the Quanzhen masters tended to be lovers of letters, and they left behind poems and essays that made explicitly clear their thoughts about monasticism. Because many of Wang's first generation disciples came into frequent contact with the Jin and Yuan courts in order to secure the right to promulgate their movement, there is plenty in the written record from governmental sources. Local gazetteers also contain a wealth of information about the early masters' biographies and religious activities. Taken as a whole, a clear picture is left behind of an institutionalized monastic movement. To this very day, in monastic Longmen Daoism, the requirement for monks and nuns is to eschew many things lay Longmen disciples are not prohibited from partaking in. Marriage and sex are prominent on the list. Those Longmen Daoists who wish to be married and/or have sex are either laypeople, or monks and nuns who violate their vows. That is one way of interpreting events, I am not sure where it comes from. My understanding is that it is often painted as a mutual decision made by Sun and Ma after Wang Chongyang impressed them with physical bilocation, a series of cryptic teaching poems, and the symbolic cutting of pears into pieces for several weeks, which eventually Ma and Sun understood as meaning "to leave [marriage]," as "pear" (梨) and leave (離) are homonyms. There are also androcentric-sounding versions of the story in which Ma makes the decision and a disappointed Sun asks him to reconsider. Regardless of brought up the word "divorce" first, the two of them entered into a monastic life and, so far as we know, remained in it until they died. The use of the word "petrified" here seems gratuitous. Living in a monastic setting might not suit you at all and might feel very petrified were you to be in it, but that is not how it feels to those who have an affinity for that path (which predates the Quanzhen movement by a long time--Daoist 出家 living with monastic strictures began to be codified centuries earlier in the Tang, I believe). I say this having lived with such people and being student and confidant of such people. Wise Daoist teachers I have met recognize that some aspirants have affinity for a monastic path, some do not. For those who do not, there are teachers like your own, who are lay people who inherit Longmen teachings and transmit them to other lay people. This is a statement which only makes sense when talking about traditions like Zhengyi and Lingbao, which are called 火居/huoju, "living near the fire/hearth," which refers to being a married householder. In the Quanzhen, there is no provision for huoju daozhang. That is not true. To the contrary, an argument could be made that Chinese Buddhism had vegetarianism forced upon it by the emperor who required all Buddhist monks and nuns in China to abstain from meat (I think this emperor was Liang Wudi) due to Daoist influences. To be certain, ancient Daoism did not require full-time vegetarianism, but strict abstention from meat for periods of time prior to major jiao rituals was common. So strict was this abstention that the entire community hosting the ritual could be prohibited from eating meat, as well as slaughtering animals, hunting, and fishing altogether during the lead up to the ritual and up through its conclusion. This is such a deep-rooted tradition that local McDonald's in Taiwan have been successfully prohibited from serving meat patties for this reason. By contrast, ancient Indian Buddhists were not vegetarians. They were, to use a modern term, freegans. They ate what they were given. Abstaining from alcohol is certainly a requirement of monastic Quanzhen Daoists. This is well-documented. Laypeople may drink. External alchemy was not a part of the Quanzhen monastic regimen. If there were (and I suspect there were, because this was such a syncretic movement) Quanzhen monks or nuns who dabbled or specialized in external alchemy, this would not have been to get high. And yet on the first page of this very thread you talked about Daoists "embracing syncreticism." Like it or not, cross-pollination is more the rule than the exception, everywhere in the universe. This does not mean all cross-pollination is good, and that it cannot lead to the death of a species (I would argue that the cross-pollination of modern Quanzhen Daoism with modern PRC consumerist culture and CCP United Front Work Department nationalism, for instance, is strangling that spiritual path). Regarding the second part of this comment, perhaps your eye is somewhat jaundiced regarding this issue. You certainly make your distaste for monasticism clear quite often. And to be certain, monastic life can be about subservience to power structures with all of the attendant large- and small-scale catastrophe that comes from that. But also, monasticism can be about personal choice, responsibility, and accountability coming to the fore of one's existence thanks to the way in which a monastic setting can allow one to cut away nearly everything except for those three things. I personally know people who have been touched by both sides of that coin. As the world is a very complicated place, sometimes it is the same person who has seen both sides of the coin. I don't think you have enough "on the ground" experience to say "always" here. Even within a single small monastery with fewer than 10 monks or nuns within one finds a complex blend of patterns that defies easy definition. Finally, while there is merit in all of the negative assessments you could levy at monasticism, please try to remember that had the monastic Quanzhen Longmen not existed, there could never have been a Wang Liping in your life. If what he inherited truly traces back to Qiu Chuji, that means he inherited something that came from elders who felt very strongly that monasticism should be established, nurtured, defined, and maintained. I respect their thinking on these matters, not blindly, but for the very same reason that I defer to the teachers when they tell me what the teachings are. After all, if I know better than Wang, Ma, and Qiu did, why the hell am I wasting my time and my teachers' by coming to them for instruction?
  2. Is gendao worth having on this forum?

    Oh, I see, I see. You got jealous because we stopped talking about you and now we're talking about the other kid. Ok, ok, let me read all that. Ah, ah, I see. Right, I had almost forgotten, that's why Earl Grey can't stand you. And just imagine, you made it all so clear, he didn't even have to come back here and explain it all over again! People may say many things about you, Gendao, but don't let them ever say you're not a Helpful Harry.
  3. Is gendao worth having on this forum?

    Yep. Luckily he's almost certainly very young. Plenty of time. I don't worry about him being an arrogant little shart (why, I might have been one myself, not so long ago). The part about being arrogant, thinking he's very humble, and reflexively playing the wounded victim? That will take him some time to work through. Maybe he will, maybe he won't. Oh, well. I shan't be holding me breath, nor placing any bets in his corner. Time will tell, though. Any "ability" I have gained is very mundane, limited really to the realm of vastly improving my own health and being able to help others do the same. Even for these things I spent years (and still am) wandering, spent obscene amounts of money, and indeed neared death and faced serious betrayal more than once (I once had to kidnap a corrupt Daoist and his minions after he tried to steal $8000 US from me--this is a true story, and crazy enough, another Dao Bummer was there to help me! Although I haven't seen him post here in years... I guess he's smart enough not to hang out in this hive of scum and villainy ). Actually, it was fun, I enjoyed the adventures, at least in retrospect if not while they unfolded! But it is true, the chances of any of us getting the things this forum is dedicated to from YouTube are... low.
  4. Is gendao worth having on this forum?

    Oh gawwwwwd, you're acting like a kid who insisted on playing rugby with the big kids and then threw a gigantic purple tantrum because somebody tackled him. If you want people to talk to you like you were a nice, respectable gentleman, don't be such a sniveling little Proud Boy asshole.
  5. Is gendao worth having on this forum?

    Oh, well I never! Well, since we're sharing our feelings, I think think it's ironic how you cast insults left and right simply so you can have a showy little personal pout parade of Glenn Beck-y butthurtedness about it the moment any of it comes back atcha! Kinda laaaaaame for an aspiring immortal flying around the galaxy for all eternity, but hey, maybe when you run into the Annunaki you can defeat them with your petulant, witless snarkiness and your teenboy sneer. I hope you have bangs, they make the sneer soooo much better, plus bangs will look totally kewl when you make your first Daoist Thundermagic Cosplay YouTube vid. First one to 40 views wins!
  6. Is gendao worth having on this forum?

    Amazing! Literally giggling out loud. I need that thing! "Doodle-blue" also happens to be Boerwors' permanent mood. Coinky-dink? I don't think so! Lol, it's an accent that was designed for caricature! Oooooooh, did I make you P at a D? I just love water sports!
  7. Daoist associations?

    You are a student of Wang Liping, right? Can you rephrase your question? I'm not entirely sure what those question marks indicate you're asking.
  8. Daoist associations?

    Well, that's just one side of a coin, and at the other side is the fact that you, as a practitioner of Longmen Daoist arts, are a benefactor of a line the traces directly back to Wang Chongyang, Ma Danyang, and Qiu Chuji, who all chose a staunchly monastic path and recommended it for some (but not all) of the aspirants they taught.
  9. Daoist associations?

    Thank you for sharing this. I think your observations are important. While it can be easy to say something like, "well, if these monks are susceptible to temptation, then they're not real monks, so monasticism is inherently hypocritical and maybe even itself a violation of natural principles," your comments reminded me that the whole point of any real monastic environment comes from honestly acknowledging how human it is to be susceptible to temptation. The walls (both literal and figurative) of any cloister exist precisely because the monks--if they are honest--are clear about how they will not make the progress they wish to make unless they separate themselves from aspects of the human world that they are not, at least at a certain stage of their path, capable of standing aloof of. It doesn't take a leap of imagination to see how allowing internet connections in monasteries is a bit like filling them with liquor cabinets and allowing overnight visitors in monks' and nuns' bedrooms. Sure, drinking a beer (or ten) and having a cuddle (or an orgy) are "natural" behaviors. Hell, maybe even some orgy-having, watermelon-fucking, cognac-swilling cultivators can reach their spiritual goals without giving up the booze and sex. But: monasticism has always existed for those who admit to themselves that they need at least a long, long break from access to those external things that will derail them focus on their inner lives. That's why it is important for all people connected to a tradition that has a monastic path to respect the monastic lifestyles. Nuns/monks, non-monastic clergy, and laypeople all have a part to play in this. It is sad when laypeople who call themselves "believers" or even "practitioners" not only don't respect the monastic way, but even throw themselves full force into becoming sources of chaos in monastic environments. Case in point: the person who narrated the watermelon story to me in person carried on a sexual relationship with a monk in White Cloud Monastery for years. She even took me to meet the dude once; in addition to this mistress he also secretly had a wife and child and as such was always busy trying to find ways to make money while living as a "monk" so that he could send it to his wife, who would show up at the temple and threaten to out him if the cash flow dried up. One day I went to visit my friend for tea (I swear, just tea... and maybe a few cookies... fuck it, I'm not a monk, I can have cookies!) and she complained bitterly to me about a much older monk in the White Cloud Monastery who saw her poking around one of the places where monks have bedrooms, looking for her beau. Her man wasn't in, and the old monk saw her, walked over and said, "I know who you're looking for, he's not home," apparently, she felt, with a look of judgement and contempt on his face. All she wanted to do was complain about this judgmental bastard, and when I pointed out maybe he finds it upsetting that she's there several times a week to get her fuck on right in the middle of his monastery, where he specifically moved in order to cultivate the Dao in relative peace, well, hmm, maybe she could turn the light of judgment on herself just a tiddily-tad. This flew right over her head, and in fact she complained about that incident to me several other times over the years, despite also lamenting the "even worse" antics of White Cloud Monastery, which are multifarious and are not limited to boning veggies on web cams. That internet-based temptation has been problematic for monks in the Eastern Orthodox church is sad, but it also makes me feel a little bit better about my own tradition, as it shows that this isn't simply a challenge that Daoist monasteries are, as a whole, failing to deal with effectively. I think one problem is that people remain too attached to the letter of monastic code written in ancient times, and not the spirit. I know many chain smoking Daoist monks. Why is this okay? "Wang Chongyang, et al, did not forbid smoking tobacco." Right, motherfucker, because they did not know about it! They also did not know about getting sucked into the WeChat hole and much other crap, but it doesn't take a fucking prophet who can talk to the ghosts of Christmas past to make a good guess about what Wang Chongyang mighta said about staring at a phone to play mah jiang or flirt with "the faithful" five hours a day. Point being: anybody who struggles to answer the proverbial WWJD question here just doesn't wanna deal with his/her addictions du jour. Anyway, I finally finished doing my research into Zhang Mingxin and Four Dragons. Holy fucking shit, that's a whole 'nother can of worms. Gonna need a whole new thread, and a few hours to write it all up. She wears blue but she's as red as Lenin and she's found a bevy of gullible American pawns only too eager to become "priests." Madness. Madness.
  10. Daoist associations?

    Jim Jarmusch? I'll have to watch this sometime!
  11. Is gendao worth having on this forum?

    I said "convince," you said "prove." My point is that he fails to make cogent arguments, therefore he has not established grounds for his tendentious rambling in things that normally convince people: excellent logic, strong evidence, successful appeals to conscience, poignant anecdotes, and the like. I would not say he is the only person here who fails at making cogent arguments. Read more carefully. Careful reading would be a good skill for a boy who wants to learn Daoist magic (or anything else) from books. Sure, it extends to those. We could talk about those questions. If it is important to you and you have something intelligent and convincing to say, why not make a new thread about it? Hmm, is your favorite superhero Projecty the Projecting Projector? No? Rearry? Oh, hmm, huh, no, no reason... By the way, I don't hate white people as a group, but I do find insular, paranoid, racist white South Africans who pronounce "white South Africans" in this Emperor Palpatine sounding-ass voice as "whet Seth Efrikens" rather distasteful. Are you perchance one of those? Emperor Palpatine had quite the magic powers, I guess... Liiiiiiaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr. You directed us to the following video to show us your role model and source of goals: I direct everybody's attention to 18:00. Napoleon Dynamite-ass... I will not be responsible for peed pants (make it raaaaiiinnn!) Also, Boerwors you have plainly stated that your desire is to explore the far reaches of the universe as an immortal whose personality is never obliterated. You. Are. Seeking. Siddhis. Beware of self-deception and other-deception if you're really trying to walk the path you think you want to walk. I doubt they will serve you well. But then again, I'm no authority. Whuh-whuh-whuh-well, buh-buh-buh-but, obviously! Now you do! Toodles! I see the resemblance!
  12. Is gendao worth having on this forum?

    Sometimes good to take a break and get some distance. Stay safe and healthy!
  13. Is gendao worth having on this forum?

    @sean seemed to imply on the "No More Right-wing Bullshit" thread that this forum is not a place for "crypto-antisemitic conspiracy-theorists." I consider @gendao one of those. I have also reported his repeated anti-Christian ranting, which I see as belonging to the same spectrum of behavior as the racism and transphobia that was explicitly banned. I say this despite the fact that I am no fan of most of Christianity's iterations. @Earl Grey, you could maybe chill a bit with the yelling at idiots. They do need to be dealt with head-on sometimes, but there's a point to be made that yelling at them too much can make you seem more like them than not, and perhaps also makes some people uncomfortable. I don't know what the best way to deal with these incorrigible agenda-heads is, though. Good-old "civility" failed here over the years as well; it can win over reasonable people we don't agree with or at least help us to "agree to disagree" or just keep out of each others' hair; it doesn't work well with people whose reasoning is impaired. Treating trolls, cult recruiters, fools, maniacs, megalomaniacs, conspiracy theorists, bigots and perverts who gloat about sitting cross-legged in McD's leering at children as though they were remotely normal, well, normalizes them and their behavior. This behavior only gets worse when it is normalized, not better. That is why I think it can be necessary to conflict with such people openly. But if, after all the fighting, they never change, never accept defeat, never leave, and never get banned, the conflict seems only to simmer, or even grow and spill over. I agree that Gendao needs to stop swooping into thread after thread to "decolonialize" us with stupid, prejudiced, David Icke-esque caca. In a world with no such thing as a perfect option, I don't see why not to ban him. He doesn't seem to learn anything here, he hasn't convinced anybody of anything, he makes it so people can't have serious conversations about the very real problem of colonialism, he's a bigot, and seemingly his only supporter is a guy who took fifty pages of arguing to half-assedly admit that he's not really in the MoPai, but even so still continues to refer to himself as a member of the MoPai. Pretty crappy character witness. I think there is good advice on when, how, and why to ban in this article about the Reddit /relationships subreddit: https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2019/10/reddit-moderation-relationships-subreddit-memes/600322/
  14. Daoist associations?

    It's cool you guys have enjoyed the conversation, but since this is an issue that has at stake thousands of dollars for people who get involved; however much time and social as well as emotional investment they make; and the reception of an ancient, living lineage with extremely strong and clear characteristics in non-Chinese-speaking countries, I hope that in addition to being stimulating I can shed light on perspectives that were expressed to me by Chinese Daoists over the years who believe that the monastic vows are extremely important. There are some serious issues at stake here and this conversation is going to get a lot more complex when the time arrives to write about them. As for celibacy, I think Socrates' advice is excellent... Unless one is talking about people who have joined a tradition and adopt an identity that not only implies but downright requires--stringently, repeatedly, and publicly--that its adherents forgo the opportunity to have sexual relationships. At that point (especially when speaking about purported monks and nuns who live off of donations and money collected for the performance of religious rituals and offering spiritual/religious teachings), we are no longer speaking about an individual choice, but a communal choice, in the sense that the ramifications of one's choice extend beyond one's own and one's sexual partners' bodies and sexual activities, and outward to the rest of the spiritual/religious community that supports the existence of monastic life. So again, given that Quanzhen Daoism has always made room for there to be non-celibate lay disciples (the sujiadizi I mentioned above), why are Zhang Mingxin, Four Dragons, et al now rewriting the script, and under what authority do they do so? At any rate, I will write more on this later, as the nun Zhang Mingxin has left quite a lot of eyebrow-raising footprints around the internet that are very germane to this topic. That is spot on. Hi Nathan, For whatever reason you have ignored my questions repeatedly. I am going to write about your grand-teacher and the issues I've raised here whether you reply or not, but I would like to remind you yet again that you are welcome to offer your thoughts before I write more. Also, Nathan, you replied "spot on" to Taomeow's post that covered a number of topics. What, exactly, did you think was spot on about it? Specifically, do you mean that you are familiar with the Daozang Xubian? If so, which of its texts, and by which author, do you feel are relevant to you, your teacher/grand-teacher, and Four Dragons? (I mean this specifically with relation to there being Longmen daozhang who are non-celibate and may not have to follow other aspects of the monastic code). Have you read them in Chinese or in translation? If the latter, where did you find them? Thank you.
  15. Volcanoooooo

    You know, I had written some other stuff, but really, just two things: 1. You don't speak for "a planet that otherwise has no voice," that is just madness. Even as a metaphor it's ridiculous. 2. Why not give GSMaster's advice a solid try?