Ervin

Currently important to me. When is it ok to lie acording to your understanding of Daoist scriptures?

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1 hour ago, cold said:

 

Hmm what about a lie of omission?

Point taken.  We should speak when we have something to say.

 

I even speak when I have nothing to say.

 

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13 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

Point taken.  We should speak when we have something to say.

 

I even speak when I have nothing to say.

 

 

Well you are certainly in good company there!

 

                               :lol:

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In my humble opinion, there is no right answer to your question from us. You should consider  whether its ok to lie based on your intuition and your conscience. This is the same principle in any ambiguous situations. Because if you lie it might be wrong, and if you don't lie in a specific situation, it also might be wrong. However, very few can say that they have good intuition. And I am personally not among those who are the lucky ones ;)

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If we practice puffery and listen to our own noise, we neither grow nor hear. When we work to increase our vibrational frequency and practice listening in stillness, we begin to perceive the resonances and harmonics which surround and pervade us -- and we can begin to understand our influences as simultaneously emitter and receiver.

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I feel this thread sorta reveals the core essence:

Zhuangzi, in chapter 1 poses the question of what we depend upon... and what were to happen if we were to depend only upon heaven and earth?

 

Everything else is in-between, and in between can be gauged by how fluidly something is able to adapt to the changes occurring between heaven and earth.

 

When this adaptation becomes stagnant, the flow and harmony become obstructed. Rather than trusting decisions to our intuition, our ego comes to decide right and wrong based on attachments.

 

When the flow is not hindered, the intuition marks a fluidity that naturally balances between yin and yang. This is being close to dao.

 

When when the flow is hindered, we enter a buffered state where there is separation and stagnation to this way of seamlessly flowing with dao. The entire manifest realm is such a stage of buffering, and yet even it has an ebb and flow, a beginning and ending.

 

In buffering, we lean to the extreme. In cultivation of balance, we lean to where we may surrender to intuition of what is right and wrong in any given moment through divine knowledge and connection to refined vibration.

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Nothing is absolute, dynamic and ever changing, the truth for the benefit of all humanity a lie to an oppressor. Truth to harm or lies for harmony. ones truth can be another's lie.  Each body is a universe with a shen to guide, unlimited realities unfold, virtue integrity, one with one's way, then there is no error, Or maybe not.

Edited by Wu Ming Jen
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On 3/15/2016 at 11:15 AM, dawei said:

 

Interesting point.  I do think there is a frequency which might get setup by the difference between what the person knows (holds in) and says (let's out).    I was once shown a method to determine any lie... I just choose not to use it.  

 

Due to my contact with CIA guys in some of my self defense training I learned that they have a way of determining if someone is lying by the way the liar moves their eyes, but I can't recall what that is.

 

On 3/14/2016 at 11:14 PM, ilumairen said:

I read somewhere that there is a physiological response to being lied to. I have no idea of what the counterpart to the one attempting to maintain a lie would be, but I suspect there is one.

 

If someone has meditated enough then they become somewhat psychic and empathic and this leads, at higher levels, to knowing they are being lied to, and at lower levels to getting an uncomfortable feeling about the liar, probably the physiological response you mention.

Edited by Starjumper
grammar

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On 7/28/2017 at 6:30 PM, Wu Ming Jen said:

Nothing is absolute, dynamic and ever changing, the truth for the benefit of all humanity a lie to an oppressor. Truth to harm or lies for harmony. ones truth can be another's lie.  Each body is a universe with a shen to guide, unlimited realities unfold, virtue integrity, one with one's way, then there is no error, Or maybe not.

 

Well said.

 

Reminds me that any longer I am not much troubled, or overly concerned about the nature of relative truths.   All untruths serve truth when they are inevitably revealed as untruths. 

 

Yet i clearly recognize that no longer do I abide long in the presence of, or tolerate inauthenticity in my self particularly and others to a lesser extent.

 

Resonates in a manner akin to my observation of a shift in my recent behavioral nature, that lately, I am rarely serious, but very sincere.

Edited by silent thunder
change wording for clarity
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On 3/14/2016 at 8:33 AM, Ervin said:

I am interested in an opinion of practising Daoists as to when is it OK to say lies? If I was a German living in Germany during the second world war, I would lie about whether there are any Jew's hidden in my house in order to save their innocent lives. Yes, I know it's a pretty serious scenario, but In that case I am certain I would lie.

 

Now how about if you are in a situation that's not so serious, but it would save an innocent from an unjust oppressive imposition on his/her life? But its a fairly big lie that has to be maintained for a long time.

 

Do what you think will result in the best possible outcome for the greatest number of people, including yourself.

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3 hours ago, Starjumper said:

 

Do what you think will result in the best possible outcome for the greatest number of people, including yourself

 

Good morning Steve,

 

If it is the best possible outcome for the greatest number of people - excluding myself - I do not have to lie but act from my heart.

 

Why excluding myself? No conflict of interest.

 

- Anand

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1 hour ago, Limahong said:

If it is the best possible outcome for the greatest number of people - excluding myself - I do not have to lie but act from my heart.

 

Why excluding myself? No conflict of interest.

 

Well it is most important for a person to be ethical to themselves, which has priority, therefore there is no conflict of interest.

 

Being ethical to yourself includes doing what is best for others, but numero uno comes first.

 

It is written in the unwritten code of conduct for warriors.  First protect yourself, then protect innocent bystanders, then go out and raise hell.  Or something like that.

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23 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

Or something like that.

 

I understand anything and everything from you. Nothing to worry.

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If you are thinking about "what's good for the world" ... then you are anyway lying because you are not present to the situation at hand, you are speaking, but in your head you are planning plotting and have an agenda - even if it is a good agenda.   Therefore you are lying.

 

When you read the papers, you can say "oh he's a f******* a******e" and get angry at many people.
But if you are in front of those people are you really going to say the same thing.   Looking into their eyes, seeing that they are just crazy monkeys, all wanting to be happy, trying to deal with a difficult world.   Is it really honest to shout at them ?   Or is it an indulgence in your own fantasy.   
You want to shout at people, so you can continue to be not present and indulge in the dream of hatred in your head.

 

Likewise if you are really nice and compassionate and want to save the world .... when speaking to people.   Are you present ?  Or is this a different dream ?   Are you present to yourself, and are you looking into the eyes of the person in front ?   Or do you look to the side to allow you to keep dreaming and get your agenda out ?

Life is not painful or hurtful if you are there.   Just be there.   
Be honest right here.   Again and again.

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On Monday, March 14, 2016 at 1:33 PM, Ervin said:

But its a fairly big lie that has to be maintained for a long time.

You are playing with English words. In English it's the same word for actual lies that are lesser or more severe in grade and the same word for lies for a specific benevolent purpose. The truth the English language seems to bow to is the chess board of the freemasons. Black and White. Everything is black and white. From social convention to media formats. So who are the bad guys? aka so am I lying or not? No such thing as bad and good guys and no such thing as lie or not. This is all relative stuff. The dao is beyond this nonsense duality. Discordianism teaches us how to treat concepts. Treat them as they are. Do not simply label or attempt to change in anyway. Do not see it, in a certain form, but be it, formlessly. At the end of the day what does the subconsciouss do the conscious portion of mind does not? It sees everything to be everything else but never sees anything to be nothing. For its essence (or |nature?) has impediments and it can only see the impediments in everything, thus sees nothing, yet everything. But the essence of the dao which is free of all impediments see nothing, thus sees everything, for it is everything. 

 

And the actual answer to your question ( :)) ) it's okay. What matters is purpose of intent. If the action of intent goes wrong, then well..this is why intellect and pragmatism and integrity are said to be virtues in and of themselves, just like benevolence/compassion.

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3 hours ago, rideforever said:

Be honest right here.

 

Hi rideforever,

 

Put away the lie detector. 

 

Practise wu-wei.

 

Ride forever in the Void.

 

- LimA

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2 hours ago, EmeraldHead said:

Everything is black and white.

 

Hi Emeraldhead,

 

... and the chakras chase the rainbow thus:

 

red => orange => yellow => green => blue => violet => indigo

 

- LimA

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Just now, Limahong said:

 

Depends on whose perspective.

 

I was talking about the English language in general. General concepts of it. NOT, the chakras concept. Language is not everything. 

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16 hours ago, Starjumper said:

It is written in the unwritten code of conduct for warriors.    First protect yourself, then protect innocent bystanders, then go out and raise hell.

 

Of course this concept refers to physical protection.  Ego protection becomes more of a thorny situation =)

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4 hours ago, Starjumper said:

Ego protection becomes more of a thorny situation =)

 

Hi Steve,

 

Ego protection is also mountainous.

 

On 7/13/2018 at 3:04 AM, dawei said:

First there are mountains then no mountains and then mountains ? There is ego then no ego and then ego.

 

 

 

- Anand

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wow almost two years later and no closer to the truth  :lol:

 

Truth may vary, day by day.

 

My 18 trips to china have taught me that the other side of the world treats truth as just a word...  The ability to not reveal or hide the truth is a great art.  I've seen its great art work.   And understand why it occurs.

 

Rely on your ability to know when to trust something or someone...   and an untruth is not reason to untrust if you can understand why an untruth occurred.  

 

If this makes no sense... then Yin without yang and yang without yin has no meaning too?  

 

JMO :)

 

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