I want bliss really badly. What is the quickest path to my goal?

[Birch]

well, can you guys tell me your thoughts on instant kundalini awakening through a guru or a specific practice? I'm planning to go to a sahaja meditation group soon, and their practice involves awakening kundalini as the first thing you do before you do anything else with them.

 

i really don't want to spend 2+ years working on my discipline before i get what i want...

 

edit: well, i see skygazer basically answered this post after googling that Shaktipat is another word for what i'm talking about. thanks, i will consider your advice, but the pain/torment or wahtever you say it'll bring doesn't bother me at all. I just want a quick route, even if it'll lead to some misery here and there. That's worth it if it means i don't need to train for years, because i don't have that kind of patience and i'll just give up in a month, knowing myself.

 

Heroin. Apparently is a very fast route to bliss but it doesn't last. From what you've said, you don't sound like you'd be able to take it or leave it. 'Kundalini' could 'work' but the 'bliss feeling doesn't last (at least not IME so far) either and its process could (I won't say 'will' because everyone is different (need a 'special snowflake' icon)) f*ck lots of things up in your life, everything from your sense of self to your relationships, to your health to your job (if you have one). Being happy as you are (I know that sounds trite) is IME/IMO the 'goodie' to go for.

 

However, if you go for 'shaktipat', please go for it within a (relatively) well-known system - because the other people who have already been there, done that will be able to help when things hit the fan. The guys at KAP do very well. I'd also PM Hundun and the Hardlight people.

[Birch]

i've taken large amounts of pshcedelic drugs while in a state of depression and sadness, and experienced fear that most people wouldn't feel in everyday life. Truly thinking i was going to die while in a state of timelessness and confusion.. and when the trip was over, i looked back at the experience and didn't feel traumatized at all, but was just glad i got to experience something i never would if I didn't take the drug otherwise.

 

so I don't care about pain, my pain tolerance is very high. I just have no discipline and patience, and i'm skeptical, but the thing is...if I could even experience pain just from a simple meditation? That'll be proof that there's something more to the world than I currently know, and it'll be fuel for my motivation.

 

So i'm going to go to their meeting.. and I hope I experience SOMETHING. what I fear most is i'll experience nothing, and i'll be back at square one. Or perhaps i'll give up on this pursuit for some higher mental state, and go back to my life of indulgence and misery and materialism.

 

Actually, it may very well be (from what you've said) that you've already kicked yourself off into some kind of 'ego-death' (from what little I've understood about psychedelics, that's what they do, they kick out your frontal cortex so you get to experience 'whatever' is being held back by it. But if you've done this without 'consciousness' of whatever you've experienced, then it's not quite as useful, apparently. Read up on various TTB's accounts of Ayahuasca to figure out the differences, perhaps?

 

Oh, and then there's Daniel Ingrams' (sp) interactive bhudda e-book online which suggests that you could be smack in the middle of that 'dark night' stuff that follows (some would say 'inevitably') certain 'peak' experiences.

 

Hopefully something in there helped.

Edit: typo

Edited September 7, 2012 by -K-

[Alchemistgeorge]

if I could even experience pain just from a simple meditation? That'll be proof that there's something more to the world than I currently know, and it'll be fuel for my motivation.

now that is easy.

Do the water method - dissolving - preferably while standing. Its amazing (even to the point of scary) what you release. But then you are free of it.

 

------

 

 

Your post title says you want bliss "really badly." FWIW, in my professional life it is said "if you want a deal badly enough, someone will make you a bad deal." Lots of people here are cautioning you, people who are pretty impartial.

 

In Japanese there is an old saying "isogaba mawari" 急がば回れ- which translates approximately to "if you are in a hurry, take the long way round" or "the short cut doesn't save time".

 

just sayin ...

[Boy]

...

Edited October 11, 2012 by Boy

[dc9]

I have never experienced ego death from psychedelics. It's like my mind is so grounded in this world that not even large amounts of powerful drugs can free me.

 

so where else can I go for a shaktipat, specifically? I feel kind of driven on this path, i'm going to a sahaja meeting tomorrow, and i doubt i'l experience anything, and they'll tell me something like "it's subtle for some people but it's been awakened for you" and i'll just not believe it. but i hope that won't be the case.

 

i don't want balance or to get rid of my issues. Obviously i do, but i don't know where to truly begin except to work on my patience and frustration threshold by meditating a lot. But that's boring. please tell me who can truly give me shaktipat or any other quick lasting paths to bliss. not peace, or contentment, but otherworldly orgasmic bliss any time i want, whenever i want.

[konchog uma]

only in the west...

 

"dont you have like a pill or something i can take? what do you mean years of work?"

[Birch]

so where else can I go for a shaktipat, specifically?

 

The guys at KAP http://kundaliniawakeningprocess.com/ and the guys at http://www.hardlight.org/

 

For the rest:

 

i don't want balance or to get rid of my issues. Obviously i do, but i don't know where to truly begin except to work on my patience and frustration threshold by meditating a lot. But that's boring. please tell me who can truly give me shaktipat or any other quick lasting paths to bliss. not peace, or contentment, but otherworldly orgasmic bliss any time i want, whenever i want.

 

IME, 'issues' are not 'black n' white' which IME is why not all of them wants to be 'gotten rid of'. However 'balance' is IME worthwhile. For the other stuff, I wouldn't have an icecube's in hell of convincing you:-)

[forestofemptiness]

It can't be done. If it could, whatever it is would have caught on like wildfire.

[Fū Yue]

I have never experienced ego death from psychedelics. It's like my mind is so grounded in this world that not even large amounts of powerful drugs can free me.

 

so where else can I go for a shaktipat, specifically? I feel kind of driven on this path, i'm going to a sahaja meeting tomorrow, and i doubt i'l experience anything, and they'll tell me something like "it's subtle for some people but it's been awakened for you" and i'll just not believe it. but i hope that won't be the case.

 

i don't want balance or to get rid of my issues. Obviously i do, but i don't know where to truly begin except to work on my patience and frustration threshold by meditating a lot. But that's boring. please tell me who can truly give me shaktipat or any other quick lasting paths to bliss. not peace, or contentment, but otherworldly orgasmic bliss any time i want, whenever i want.

 

I'm sorry, but your princess is in another castle. Made of air. A tree does not grow strong and tall in a day.

 

Regular awareness precedes divine madness. Consistent and regular every-day peace precedes supernatural stillness, consistent and regular every-day loving kindness precedes otherworldly orgasmic bliss. Without foundation, the bliss will end. Without foundation, you will not be able to return again and again.

[konchog uma]

exactly.forestofemptiness.. but it sounds like the original poster has his mind made up what he's going to do and is just looking for people to support his opinion rather than actually attempting to learn anything new.

 

and no offense dc9 but it sounds like you know little about spiritual practice, kundalini, or shaktipat. I would recommend educating yourself. You are undoubtedly going to realize one day that there is no such thing as fruit without the labor of planting and harvest... no free and easy trip IME

 

again good luck

[Jetsun]

You could look up things like Quantum entrainment and Matrix Energetics. The guy who made Matrix Energetics says that you don't need to do years of meditation etc because all the other people in the past have done it so all you have to do is tap into the morphic field created by them to gain all the benefit. The guy who made Quantum Entrainment was a Vedanta student who found a way to quickly tap into big mind very easily without years of meditation or self enquiry.

[Celestial]

Now it all makes sense after reading this thread and his "hi im new..." in the Lobby.

Edited September 7, 2012 by Celestial

[C T]

 

I'm sorry, but your princess is in another castle. Made of air. A tree does not grow strong and tall in a day.

 

Regular awareness precedes divine madness. Consistent and regular every-day peace precedes supernatural stillness, consistent and regular every-day loving kindness precedes otherworldly orgasmic bliss. Without foundation, the bliss will end. Without foundation, you will not be able to return again and again.

 

So true. I'd even venture a little further to say that the foundation is itself inseparable from the source where Bliss overflows. And this applies to every aspect of human endeavor, not only to the field of spiritnautics. Any inspired craftsperson can verify this, or any inspired sportsperson, for that matter.

[et-thoughts]

i will consider your advice, but the pain/torment or wahtever you say it'll bring doesn't bother me at all. I just want a quick route, even if it'll lead to some misery here and there.

 

Let me get this right... You claim that it doesn't bother you at all that you will have to pay much much more after the experience than doing the required preparatory work for the experience... that's like wanting to get a loan and not caring about the interests charged (a loan that you will never be able to pay back and forever be paying for) ... its like wanting to sky-dive without first figuring out how to use a parachute... and being willing to spend the rest of your life paralyzed from the way you landed...

[dc9]

Let me get this right... You claim that it doesn't bother you at all that you will have to pay much much more after the experience than doing the required preparatory work for the experience... that's like wanting to get a loan and not caring about the interests charged (a loan that you will never be able to pay back and forever be paying for) ... its like wanting to sky-dive without first figuring out how to use a parachute... and being willing to spend the rest of your life paralyzed from the way you landed...

 

the pain would be a gift.. because i am a materialistic minded person. You don't know what it'll mean to me to have proof that spirituality is real and not just placebo. I highly doubt i will feel anything at all, but if I do, i will be grateful to be so lucky. If i do feel pain, i'm confident, from what i've read, that I can train myself so that the pain will go away.

 

well, thanks for the responses everyone. I know i appear stubborn to you, but I know myself quite well. And i know my patience has a very limited reserve, there's no why i can't persevere at something for years at a time. I'll give up within a month, even if I tell myself at this moment that i won't, within a month i would have moved on to something else or just go back to a materialistic driven mindset. I need something quick and fast to fuel my fire. Even if it's not pleasurable, I want something that'll at least give me proof that my goal is reachable and not just a bunch of mystical placebo crap.

 

"so where else can I go for a shaktipat, specifically?"

 

The guys at KAP http://kundaliniawakeningprocess.com/ and the guys at http://www.hardlight.org/

 

 

So i take it that shakitipat is the only known way to get quick results. Those guys live quite far away from me, i won't be able to go there anytime soon. I live in cali bay area, if anyone else has any more suggestions..

 

I really really really hope i can see some results from sahaja meditation. I'll go to one tomorrow.

Edited September 8, 2012 by dc9

[Boy]

...

Edited October 11, 2012 by Boy

[Birch]

the pain would be a gift.. because i am a materialistic minded person. You don't know what it'll mean to me to have proof that spirituality is real and not just placebo. I highly doubt i will feel anything at all, but if I do, i will be grateful to be so lucky. If i do feel pain, i'm confident, from what i've read, that I can train myself so that the pain will go away.

 

well, thanks for the responses everyone. I know i appear stubborn to you, but I know myself quite well. And i know my patience has a very limited reserve, there's no why i can't persevere at something for years at a time. I'll give up within a month, even if I tell myself at this moment that i won't, within a month i would have moved on to something else or just go back to a materialistic driven mindset. I need something quick and fast to fuel my fire. Even if it's not pleasurable, I want something that'll at least give me proof that my goal is reachable and not just a bunch of mystical placebo crap.

 

 

 

So i take it that shakitipat is the only known way to get quick results. Those guys live quite far away from me, i won't be able to go there anytime soon. I live in cali bay area, if anyone else has any more suggestions..

 

I really really really hope i can see some results from sahaja meditation. I'll go to one tomorrow.

 

They do it 'long distance' too:-)

[Celestial]

"There is no way to happiness. Happiness is the way." - The Buddha

[RiverSnake]

Suppssedly if you do practice KAPs method for 6 hrs a day over a period of 6 months you can trigger a full blown Kundalini Awakening. If your serious about pursuing that path i would reccomend taking their class.

 

-My 2 cents, Peace

[thetaoiseasy]

complete spiritual sobriety> bliss -- any time, any day.

[Creation]

Shaktipat can cause years of tension and pain while you learn to work through your issues and live in the present moment, all before ever experiencing the bliss of kundalini in any kind of way like you are dreaming about ... I have never heard of an actual easy way out, the closest i have heard to it is shaktipat, which can bring about an awful lot of work and misery.

 

This reminded me of something Mark Griffin said:

"This is actually one of the things that people find difficult about Shaktipat: Because Shaktipat is grace and it's tough love all the way, it will tend to go to those darkest places first and produce challenges inside the life that bring up some of the most difficult pain. And they go 'Wait a minute, I mean, I'm supposed to feel worse?' And it it's hard to explain, because even when you do they go 'I don't know...'"

 

 

The guy who made Matrix Energetics says that you don't need to do years of meditation etc because all the other people in the past have done it so all you have to do is tap into the morphic field created by them to gain all the benefit.

Any path that emphsizes lineage transmission or utilizes guru yoga or guru devotion etc. operates on this principle. But there is no free lunch: your ability to actualize the lineage vibration/information in yourself will be limited and must be developed with practice. Mark Griffin mentioned that the Guru (that is, a true guru who can transmit enlightenment directly) is only limited by the student's capcity to recieve; If the enlightned state was forced into a person before they were ready they would get fried.

[Lucky7Strikes]

Just become aware and don't identify with your body and mind, or the energies as is arises as "bliss." If your awareness is unburdened it will naturally be blissful.

 

the pain would be a gift.. because i am a materialistic minded person. You don't know what it'll mean to me to have proof that spirituality is real and not just placebo. I highly doubt i will feel anything at all, but if I do, i will be grateful to be so lucky. If i do feel pain, i'm confident, from what i've read, that I can train myself so that the pain will go away.

 

well, thanks for the responses everyone. I know i appear stubborn to you, but I know myself quite well. And i know my patience has a very limited reserve, there's no why i can't persevere at something for years at a time. I'll give up within a month, even if I tell myself at this moment that i won't, within a month i would have moved on to something else or just go back to a materialistic driven mindset. I need something quick and fast to fuel my fire. Even if it's not pleasurable, I want something that'll at least give me proof that my goal is reachable and not just a bunch of mystical placebo crap.

 

 

 

So i take it that shakitipat is the only known way to get quick results. Those guys live quite far away from me, i won't be able to go there anytime soon. I live in cali bay area, if anyone else has any more suggestions..

 

I really really really hope i can see some results from sahaja meditation. I'll go to one tomorrow.

 

Why would you drive yourself into materialistic pursuits if you know it will be a dead end anyhow?

 

I like your honesty. Good luck.

Edited September 8, 2012 by Lucky7Strikes

[Tibetan_Ice]

My mind is burdened by anxiety and expectations, impatience and frustration. I have a very skeptical and guarded mind that's full of doubt. What can I do? I just can't help it. I can't live in the present and just experience, I'm always thinking of the future and craving for something more.

 

 

i want constant, full body, orgasmic bliss. I read about the kundalini awakening, which is basically the awareness of the energy that's flowing through me, i think. and I read about sahaja yoga, which can easily awaken kundalini. I am considering giving that a try. Does anyone else have any other suggestions?

 

I also read the multi orgasmic man book, and I will give those practices another chance.. I have already tried them and when they didn't work, i just got impatient and gave up.

 

If I could just have a taste of bliss, maybe i will be more motivated to keep trying. Right now i'm thinking that sahaja is the key to my journey..

 

Hi DC9

The quickest way to bliss is through understanding.

 

First, an anatomy lesson about the bliss layer.

The bliss layer is something that you will meet as you progress deeper into the anatomy of the layers of the Self.

 

http://www.swamij.com/koshas.htm

 

 

 

There are many other structures too, such as "physical, etheric, astral, mental, causal.. " but it has been my experience that there is a definite layer of bliss, beyond the energetic experience of kundalini, which to me is an energetic event. It is important to realize this, because many teachings think that kundalini is the end-all-be-all, when most buddhists view it as a temporary energetic event.. See, from the diagram, that the bliss layer is closer to the self than the energetic layer?

 

To me, kundalini is what happens when you store and build up you sexual energy, and at the same time cultivate and strengthen the current carrying capacities of the nerves that connect the olfactory bulb to the perineum. The same nerves that the human nose uses to process the stimulation of pheromones resulting in sexual arousal.. Sure, you can cultivate this nervous connection until it overloads and stays turned on for extended amounts of time. It's a rush. But after a few years of this, the ecstasy and sexual tension is a real pain in the ass. I do not enjoy being on the verge of orgasm for hours and hours at a time. At first it was interesting and overwhelming, but after a while you realize, that there is not much to learn and you have to abandon the attachment in order to progress deeper.

 

Now, I'm not saying that you should not cultivate kundalini, I'm saying that one should, but one should do it safely (with the supervision of a guru) and one should learn to overcome it and drop it (although it never seems to go away.. I will see if I can write this whole post without having an eruption.. right now my hands and face are hot, my perineum is pulsing and the central channel is calling me).

 

Further, if you get into deep meditation practices, kundalini will become aroused and you will be very distracted. I am so grateful that my kundalini has learned to sleep once again so that I can get deeper into the bliss levels.

 

Levels of Bliss and how to access them.

 

I don't know if anyone else can do this, but ever since I discovered the lower tan tien (I don't think it is the sacral chakra because it is just below my navel and it looks like a trumpet horn of sparkly light that extends about 6 inches out from the surface skin below the navel) I have found that I can sweep my fingers through it and have an orgasm (without the usual fluidic discharge or physical arousal). What I do is point my fingers towards the body, then sweep with one hand starting from below the navel and bring it up to the neck, while visualizing the flow continuing and shooting out of the top of my head. Then I follow through with the other hand. Kind of like sweeping smoke up the front of the body. The sensation that is produced is just like an orgasm and becomes a full body orgasm with repeated applications. I can do this any time I like, as many times as I'd like and the energetic display is very consistent. My understanding is that the lower tan tien is connected very closely to the self and has access to the bliss layer. That's how I perceive it anyway..

(If you can do this too, I wouldn't mind knowing about it.)

 

Third Eye bliss

Another method of accessing the bliss, but is tied very closely to the perineum and the energetic/kundalini component is by focusing on the third eye (the place about 1 inch inside the head behind the center of the eyebrows. Constant, uninterupted attention on that location for more than 15 minutes not only stimulates kundalini (throbbing perineum) but produces great amounts of bliss and ecstasy. This is a tricky practice because the kundalini/energetic aspect overshadows the bliss, is much coarser and easier to sense. Also, this could be a dangerous practice because it also produces heat and greatly stimulates the energy flows. If you all of a sudden get very hot, burst into etheric flames and start sweating profusely, shut it down!

 

Cave of Brahmin Bliss

 

Behind the third eye, close to the center of your head, in between your ears and slightly below and behind, there is a cave or mental space. If you focus on that area and keep your attention fixed there, you will get a similar reaction to the effects from just focusing on the third eye, but you will get more bliss and a little less kundalini action. To find this area, think of a word and watch where it appears from. If you keep internally looking at the word until it dissolves, you will see that there is a space there. If you keep your attention in that space, you will find mild bliss.

 

Medulla Bliss

 

If you look straight ahead and then turn your attention straight back around and focus on whom is watching, the feeling of "I", and keep at it for a few months, you will eventually break through the levels and also come to a place of greater bliss, similar to the Cave Of Brahman bliss. After a while, it only takes a few minutes of focusing there and you will find the bliss. Also, don't go too far back with your attention because you end up going out through the back of your head, or, you end up in what I can only describe as a vast plane of light and light-forms.. The idea is to keep your attention centered in the medulla area, as close to the 'feeling of I' as you can get.

 

Heart Bliss

 

The heart is a very powerful producer of bliss. If you can keep you undivided relaxed attention on the center of the chest, next to the heart, a little to the right of the heart, it will eventually erupt in waves of tingles and bliss. It is important to stay relaxed and not inflict too much tension during this practice because you could literally cause heart congestion and more serious complications. Love is always a good thing to send to the heart and from the heart. The heart is where the indestructible drop lives (Buddhist). The heart is also the magical tool that Richard Bartlett discovered and talks about in his "Matrix Energetics". The Heart, it is said, also contains a wishing well.. but that is another topic.

 

By now, you are seeing a common theme in all these practices. The common theme is using concentration and attention in order to dig down deeper through the layers (or koshas) to reach the bliss. Directed attention (Vitakka) and sustained attention (Vicara) are key. If you are going to develop the ability to drill down into your bliss layer, you need to develop Vitakka and Vicara. You need to train the mind and do it while relaxing and letting go of the body, sensations, other thoughts. It's a balancing act between focus and letting go.

 

Kunlun Bliss

 

What would a commentary on bliss without mentioning Kunlun bliss? The practice of Kunlun is a unique method of producing bliss, the bliss feels magnetic, like pulsing waves of coolness or water. It is also very powerful and will open up psychic channels very quickly. The technique of the Red Phoenix (level one) is a method that stimulates the third eye, and when I do this practice, it produces much the same effect and type of stimulation as the third eye focusing practice I described earlier. So, I don't know if that is because my kundalini is active or just what is going on there, but, if I need a dose of ecstasy/bliss with a lingering effect, then I do the Red Phoenix.

 

Deeper into the Bliss Layer

 

You can also find bliss in pranayama practices such as Kriya Pranayama and any practice that takes prana or a mixture of prana/apana/prana vaya and sends it up the central channel. Usually this mixture is experienced as heat, is very pleasant and has other uses. Tummo. Again, these could be dangerous practices and they should be done under the supervision of an experienced authentic guru. (I didn't, but then I have a few gurus in the astral planes looking out for me.. ) The effect from these types of practices are that a stream of ecstasy is produced, either going up the central channel -sushumna, or going down, if you take the light down from the crown). However, I would call the effects more ecstatic than bliss. The streams also look internally (third eye sight) like streams of white light.

 

The bliss, the deeper everwhelming joyous loving peaceful bliss is found through practices of directed and sustained concentration (while relaxing). If you can visualize an object in your mind's eye (third eye) and hold it there, steadily, without distraction, calmly, determinedly, eventually the object and the subject (you attention) will fuse together, everything will get very very clear and bright and you will experience great bliss. Great Bliss. So much bliss and joy that you will be distracted. You will wonder how you could ever sustain such an experience. The answer is simple, just stay there in that layer, so close to the self. In practice, it has to be approached methodically, as in spending many hours sitting, training the mind, calming the body, letting go, building vividness, not absconding to laxity and dullness. Knowing the proper techinique, having good instructions and understanding what is required is part of the path. Dedication and perseverence also play a key role (unless you are one of the lucky ones).

 

Enter the Jhanas.

 

If anyone is familiar with anapanasati, Ajahn Brahm (Mindfulness, Bliss and Beyond), Shaila Catherine (Focused and Fearless) or Alan Wallace (The Four Immeasurables, Stilling the Mind, Mind in the Balance) or the term jhana, and have put any of the practices to the test, one will discover bliss. Bliss is the perhaps the first jhana, or maybe it is the second jhana. In laymen's terms, when you focus on the breath with vitakka and vicara successfully for an extended amount of time, your body dissolves, the senses turn off, everything becomes very bright and clear and you are propelled into one of the jhanas.

 

I'm so grateful for having learned these practices because I have had good success with them. The first concept that really surprised me was learning how to turn up vividness and clarity. I've discovered, thanks to Alan Wallace, that clarity/vividness can be intensified on the in-breath, while bodily relaxation and letting go can be cultivated on the out-breath. While you are meditating on the breath and monitoring your progress, you can fine tune the balance between dullness/laxity and vividness. It really works. What happens is that, after finding the right balance, the body and senses shut off, you see more and more light like the breath has become a moving column of light and then the nimitta (mental air sign) appears (bright shining light that you eventually penetrate and reach great bliss or joy, or happiness).

 

Final Comment

 

Finally, I was reading a book called "Experience and Philosophy" by Francis Merrell-Wolff and I read a part where it said that enlightenment is so simple that if you look for it you will have missed it. So, I lifted my head and tried to be as mentally simple as I could, no thought, no conceptual mind, just so simple. Well, a clear waterous shining light appeared before my eyes. It glistened and shone. It was filled with joy, peace, love, bliss. The conceptual mind kept trying to kick in and produce a volume of thoughts that were threatening to veil the clear pool of bliss and I fought hard to push it back. I managed to stay with the clear light for about ten seconds or so, but I would have loved to have spent the rest of my life in it!

 

So perhaps the fastest method of finding the really deep bliss is to stop your conceptual mind and be so simple you would put the three stooges to shame.

 

In summation, it really doesn't matter what practice you do, just so long as it is one that helps your realize the different layers and penetrate down to the core. Since everyone is different, has varying karmas, history, culture, beliefs etc, not all methods are going to work for everyone. It is up to you find find your path with heart, the one that resonates and works for you.

 

And you know, Ajahn Brahm is right when he says that sexual ecstasy pales in comparison to the bliss from the jhanas.

 

TI

 

P.S. Thanks Anamatva, for throwing that in. Yes, AYP is not a good place to be. Just got another complaint from someone else whose post was rejected because it did not conform to the AYP beliefs (as erroneous as they are).. Lately I'm wondering if carefully pruning posts to present a specific point of view is akin to being a cult.

Edited September 8, 2012 by Tibetan_Ice

[Lucky7Strikes]

Any path that emphsizes lineage transmission or utilizes guru yoga or guru devotion etc. operates on this principle. But there is no free lunch: your ability to actualize the lineage vibration/information in yourself will be limited and must be developed with practice. Mark Griffin mentioned that the Guru (that is, a true guru who can transmit enlightenment directly) is only limited by the student's capcity to recieve; If the enlightned state was forced into a person before they were ready they would get fried.

 

Yeah, from what I've read, you have to be willing enough to give your entire being to the guru. Throw everything that is "you" away and be completely receptive. Not many people, especially today's society of individual thinker can do that. I know that I can't. It's very difficult to open up to someone you see as a guru that way.

[Creation]

Yeah, from what I've read, you have to be willing enough to give your entire being to the guru. Throw everything that is "you" away and be completely receptive. Not many people, especially today's society of individual thinker can do that. I know that I can't. It's very difficult to open up to someone you see as a guru that way.

I know that's how it was in India traditionally, but I think Mark is trying to find a new model that gets the same result while being more conducive to the Western mind. I know he is sensitive to the whole "cult" issue that has caused so many problems in Western Sanghas.

 

I have never heard him emphasise surrender to him personally. He often talks about the Siddha Lineage as a whole, and that the Guru is ultimately an eternal spirit or principle, and actually even a place in the crown.

 

Also, I think that in Tibetan Buddhism they do not emphasize devotion to the physical person of the guru quite so much as in the Indian traditions. At least, I get that impression from some Tibetan Buddhist instructions on how to relate to the Lama. There is still surrender, and a need for complete trust, yet recognizing that it's just a person that may be flawed.

Edited September 8, 2012 by Creation