Letting Go of Good and Bad

[liminal_luke]

I find myself in need of an attitude adjustment.  It no longer works for me to think of people as good or bad.  For sure there are people who are better than others at particular tasks.  Some of us are stronger or smarter or more beautiful than our peers.  But I´m not sure that any of that makes anybody better, more worthy of drawing breath.  What if everybody is equal?  What if I stopped seeking praise or fearing judgment?  Just stopped.  This morning I´m wondering how my life would change if I just dropped this whole business of ranking the value of people (including, most especially, myself) altogether.  

Edited March 24 by liminal_luke

[steve]

This subject is close to my heart.

How do we value people, or other sentient beings for that matter?

Is it based on intelligence, productivity, attractiveness?

Is it based on how closely they are related to us or is it more transactional?

I share your conclusion that life is innately precious and any system of ranking is arbitrary and more a reflection of the judge than of those being judged.

 

[old3bob]

 If we are breaking the hell out of dharma should we expect the same respect and reactions as those who are not?  And if we have to check a wishy-washy meter for an answer to that question- good luck.

Edited March 24 by old3bob

[liminal_luke]

50 minutes ago, old3bob said:

 If we are breaking the hell out of dharma should we expect the same respect and reactions as those who are not?  And if we have to check a wishy-washy meter for an answer to that question- good luck.

 

I´ve got my wishy-washy meter handy, and it should be shooting out a response momentarily.  Ah, here we go...

 

If someone is breaking the hell out of the dharma I might find myself filled with awe and admiration for their accomplishments.  I might choose to read what that person has writen or attend their dharma talks.  I can and should use discernment when it´s time to pick a spiritual teacher or buy a croissant or bet on a football team.  That´s all good.

 

What´s not so useful -- at least for me -- is to consider myself inferior or superior to others in my essence.  I´ve made plenty of mistakes in this life but I still deserve to be here.  Everybody else does too.  We´ve all got the same Buddha nature.  The Dalia Lama doesn´t have a better Buddha nature than I do, nor do I have a better Buddha nature than a convicted criminal.  Buddha is Buddha. 

Edited March 24 by liminal_luke

[old3bob]

49 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

I´ve got my wishy-washy meter handy, and it should be shooting out a response momentarily.  Ah, here we go...

 

If someone is breaking the hell out of the dharma I might find myself filled with awe and admiration for their accomplishments.  I might choose to read what that person has writen or attend their dharma talks.  I can and should use discernment when it´s time to pick a spiritual teacher or buy a croissant or bet on a football team.  That´s all good.

 

What´s not so useful -- at least for me -- is to consider myself inferior or superior to others in my essence.  I´ve made plenty of mistakes in this life but I still deserve to be here.  Everybody else does too.  We´ve all got the same Buddha nature.  The Dalia Lama doesn´t have a better Buddha nature than I do, nor do I have a better Buddha nature than a convicted criminal.  Buddha is Buddha. 

 

ok, I agree "Buddha nature" is the same across the board but souls are definitely not,  (and lets not forget that apparently some sects of Buddhism do not accept the teaching of Buddha nature)   Btw. I'd say if you find yourself in awe of evil other than in an horrific way then someone like 45 could use you.  

[Gerard]

You have to keep breaking your Heart until it opens.

 

Your Heart is the size on an ocean, go find yourself within its hidden depths.
 

Beyond all ideas of right and wrong there is a field, I will be meeting you there.

 

By Rumi, Persian mystic. 

 

Everything is a mirror of your OWN MIND. (Universal truth)...whether it is seen or unseen. 
 

 

[Mark Foote]

9 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

I find myself in need of an attitude adjustment.  It no longer works for me to think of people as good or bad.  For sure there are people who are better than others at particular tasks.  Some of us are stronger or smarter or more beautiful than our peers.  But I´m not sure that any of that makes anybody better, more worthy of drawing breath.  What if everybody is equal?  What if I stopped seeking praise or fearing judgment?  Just stopped.  This morning I´m wondering how my life would change if I just dropped this whole business of ranking the value of people (including, most especially, myself) altogether.  
 

I think what's important are the actions I take, regardless of judgements, or maybe in spite of judgements.  For me, a key part of action in the face of judgements, my own or others', is extending compassion to be receptive to what is beyond the walls and around the world.  Move from the inside, informed by the outside beyond the boundaries of the senses.

Especially in conflict situations.  Helps to have a practice of balance.

 

Edited March 25 by Mark Foote

[Lost in Translation]

13 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

It no longer works for me to think of people as good or bad.  For sure there are people who are better than others at particular tasks.  Some of us are stronger or smarter or more beautiful than our peers.  But I´m not sure that any of that makes anybody better, more worthy of drawing breath.

 

This is worthy of continued meditation.

[idiot_stimpy]

Quote

"Do not consider certain mental experiences as good and worth cultivating and other experiences as hindrances that need to be abandoned. If you can develop this attitude, your mind will gradually be emptied of its unconscious contents: The karmic traces and dispositions and all the obscurations." 
~ Tilopa

 

Applies to good and bad situations and things too. 

[RobB]

"There is nothing either good or bad but thinking makes it so" - Hamlet, William Shakespeare 

[Apech]

23 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

 

I´ve got my wishy-washy meter handy, and it should be shooting out a response momentarily.  Ah, here we go...

 

If someone is breaking the hell out of the dharma I might find myself filled with awe and admiration for their accomplishments.  I might choose to read what that person has writen or attend their dharma talks.  I can and should use discernment when it´s time to pick a spiritual teacher or buy a croissant or bet on a football team.  That´s all good.

 

What´s not so useful -- at least for me -- is to consider myself inferior or superior to others in my essence.  I´ve made plenty of mistakes in this life but I still deserve to be here.  Everybody else does too.  We´ve all got the same Buddha nature.  The Dalia Lama doesn´t have a better Buddha nature than I do, nor do I have a better Buddha nature than a convicted criminal.  Buddha is Buddha. 

Forgive my intrusion but this is a bad argument.  If someone is committed of being a serial killer or a terrorist (or similar) then you are better than them.  All else is moral relativism and a pathway to hell.  Ok I believe in redemption but even that requires that the person accepts and regrets their actions genuinely.

 

 

[Apech]

On 24/03/2024 at 4:17 PM, steve said:

This subject is close to my heart.

How do we value people, or other sentient beings for that matter?

Is it based on intelligence, productivity, attractiveness?

Is it based on how closely they are related to us or is it more transactional?

I share your conclusion that life is innately precious and any system of ranking is arbitrary and more a reflection of the judge than of those being judged.

 

We value those close to us and value less those who are distant and with whom we have little or no interaction.  This is normal and human - everything else is contrived ideation.

 

 

[silent thunder]

Within local awareness, there is still pretty solid conceptual good and bad for me.  Moral relativism on grand scales is an intellectual passtime that breaks down for me on our scale.

Edited March 26 by silent thunder

[liminal_luke]

54 minutes ago, Apech said:

Forgive my intrusion but this is a bad argument.  If someone is committed of being a serial killer or a terrorist (or similar) then you are better than them.  All else is moral relativism and a pathway to hell.  Ok I believe in redemption but even that requires that the person accepts and regrets their actions genuinely.

 

 

 

Intrude all you like, Apech.  I get what you´re saying, I do.  You have a point as does Old3Bob and now silent thunder.  And yet something in me continues to believe it´s also true that we are all equal.  If I´m not entirely cuckoo, we´re in the realm of paradox and contradiction, a place beyond logical understanding.  Might a better philosopher than I be able to untangle this mess, squaring our arguments against each other so that both might stand in their appropriate places?  I like to think so.

 

In case anyone is interested in my personal process, I´ll say that I came to my thoughts about universal equality out of deep personal need.  I´m someone who judges, a lot.  I judge myself and, like all self-judgers, I judge others.  All of this judging is uncomfortable and sometimes painful.  So a few days ago I was writing in my journal and finally came upon the idea of giving it all up.  I decided that I would no longer consider myself inferior or superior to anybody else. (Which is not to say that I´m unaware of my strengths and weaknesses; I won´t be auditioning for American Idol anytime soon.)  Of course that is easier said than done, but just coming up with the plan felt like an act of self-compassion, like a relief.  I find my belief psychologically useful.  If others find it philosophically dubious, I´ll just have to be OK with that.

 

 

Edited March 25 by liminal_luke

[thelerner]

20 hours ago, Apech said:

Forgive my intrusion but this is a bad argument.  If someone is committed of being a serial killer or a terrorist (or similar) then you are better than them.  All else is moral relativism and a pathway to hell.  Ok I believe in redemption but even that requires that the person accepts and regrets their actions genuinely.

 

 

At the extremes most analogies break down, but in everyday life its good to stretch the mind.  

I'll do stretches of Life as Dream, ie see dreams as important signals of of synchronicity and life as more dreamlike..symbolic if you will.  That being said it I don't assume the car heading towards me will vanish magically.   Life as Dream is a hard metaphor to live with long term, for me.  

 

Similarly the concept of No good/No evil  breaks down in extremes, we generally aren't living there.  The world is more tic toc mundane and stretching our mind to be less judgemental, less desire is a welcome state.  The movie Pleasantville had its hero describe the concept well, at the end of his 'enlightenment' journey to his mother who complains to him 'It's not supposed to be this way" and David replies back "It's not supposed to be anything. Hold still."  (Funny checking on the quote I didn't remember the Hold Still part.)  

 

Big part of our struggle in life is that damnable 'It's not supposed to be this way'.  While its good to call shit, shit, we over do it, and label, judge and compare too much, to our detriment.  It's made us anxious, fearful and neurotic.  To take a break from that mindset is imo a good thing and not easy.  We can turn to Tao/zen/meditation/right thinking or Drugs/stuff/distraction.  I generally flip a coin.  

Edited March 26 by thelerner

[blue eyed snake]

On 24-3-2024 at 4:22 PM, liminal_luke said:

I find myself in need of an attitude adjustment.  It no longer works for me to think of people as good or bad.  For sure there are people who are better than others at particular tasks.  Some of us are stronger or smarter or more beautiful than our peers.  But I´m not sure that any of that makes anybody better, more worthy of drawing breath.  What if everybody is equal?  What if I stopped seeking praise or fearing judgment?  Just stopped.  This morning I´m wondering how my life would change if I just dropped this whole business of ranking the value of people (including, most especially, myself) altogether.   

 

That's interesting, you make a comparison here between judging yourself and judging others

 

Quote

What if I stopped seeking praise or fearing judgment?

 

at least, seeking praise or fearing judgment sounds to me like judging yourself.

 

It seems to me I hardly ever do judge myself anymore, but have had my share of it.

I never compared that to judging others, now that you bring it up it interests me.

 

you sort of suggest that reducing the self-judgment will also reduce the judgment of others. well in my case it didn't 

 

I agree that at its deepest core everybody is equal, but it's a difficult topic.

For instance the handicapped, the chronically ill and mentally ill people are often judged as less worthy then those who are hale in body and mind. Those who overstep the societal bounds by thieving and assaulting are judged harshly. They cause a lot of pain and suffering. But at the core of it, they are just dumb fucks with a nasty load of karma and won't get rid of that karma when the judging goes on, anyways, that's my guess. 🤔

[Sahaja]

Maybe some wood qi gong would help with moderating excessive judgement. The five elements model of cultivation includes the path of balancing the emotions (at the initial level).
 

there is a difference between our natural tendency to categorize things and the ego driven need to compare. It’s important to understand the difference. Both arise from being a  limited self, but the first is useful for our survival as a physical entity the latter is more about the reinforcement/survival of the ego. 

[dwai]

On 3/24/2024 at 10:22 AM, liminal_luke said:

I find myself in need of an attitude adjustment.  It no longer works for me to think of people as good or bad.  For sure there are people who are better than others at particular tasks.  Some of us are stronger or smarter or more beautiful than our peers.  But I´m not sure that any of that makes anybody better, more worthy of drawing breath.  What if everybody is equal?  What if I stopped seeking praise or fearing judgment?  Just stopped.  This morning I´m wondering how my life would change if I just dropped this whole business of ranking the value of people (including, most especially, myself) altogether.  

I have one rule of thumb to evaluate good or bad. Anything that takes us away from our True Nature is bad. Anything that leads us back to our True Nature is good. All the "good" and "bad" qualities we see are in context to ourselves. 

 

[Bindi]

I think all inappropriate judgement would cease if someone sorted through all their emotional and mental baggage, thereby absolving themselves of any further need for ego to protect themselves - and I think this is actually possible to achieve. 

[blue eyed snake]

long ago I read a piece of research, most research into behavioral problems looks into riskfactors, this one looked into protective factors.

 

Envision a bad neighborhood were the majority of the girls end up prostituting themselves and the boys going criminal.

 

But some of the children manage to free themselves of their background, now what enabled them to do so?

 

30 years later the answer was clear, those kids that grew up to live outside the dangerous and constrictive neighborhood they grew up in, who had jobs, stable relationship.

 

these kids had one factor in common. In their childhood and youth there was 1 person that genuinely cared for them, a person they could go to when they had no other place to go. Could be a grandparent or an uncle/aunt. Or a neighbor, a former teacher. The relationship to the child did not matter, as long as they were genuinely interested and were listening to the subjects lifestories.

 

to be sure, those kids did not grow up to be absolute success stories whit good jobs, lotsa money etc. But the managed to get into normal society. and that is the important step to be judged "good" by your companions. They broke the inter-generational component that keeps people in the same rut as their (grand)parents walked.

 

The only thing needed to realize that was one caring person.

one person can make the change between hopeless and hope, between being criminal or earning wages. Between "bad" and "good"

 

I've read mountains of research, but this one stood out.

 

Seeing all the horrible things that happen, torture, rape, murder. The razing to the ground of villages and cities, the fleeing people, the mutilated persons as a result of this. It's too horrible to even think of, yet people , right now, live under circumstance, not knowing whether they, or their beloved will live or be whole of body the next hour.

 

I do wonder

 

yes, its bad and it can make me anxious, and angry and grateful it's not were I live. But all these people who are part of it.

are they all bad? Should I judge them harshly?

 

I do judge, something in me wants them all locked up for life, with the key thrown away,

 

but deep down something says: do not judge them, for what behavior would you have done when in that situation.

What chances did they have without one trusted person, growing up in a neighborhood full of hate.

with deep inter-generational trauma gnawing at their sanity

 

 

[old3bob]

There is a difference between the "bad" that many of us get may get involved with or commit as basically normal human beings with varying degrees of conscience but at least we have that;  such is not to be confused with or lumped in with the evil that demonic forces are committing that have zero conscience as we know it,  they laugh in evil glee and take any advantage they can get over human beings that fall for such a misunderstanding!  A really evil thing is when a human being has lost their human conscience and have willingly joined with that demonic nature.   Only  advanced masters should and can truly deal with such demonic forces one on one while and granted the rest of us can take well known protective measures, I'd say for anyone else to walk around saying there is no difference between good and evil is espousing a dangerous quasi-intellectual reality...btw. hungry and malicious evil is not picky about what souls it can steal, enthrall, torment and harm!! 

Edited March 26 by old3bob

[steve]

22 hours ago, Apech said:

If someone is committed of being a serial killer or a terrorist (or similar) then you are better than them.  All else is moral relativism and a pathway to hell.  

 

19 hours ago, thelerner said:

At the extremes most analogies break down, but in everyday life its good to stretch the mind.  

 

I think Luke’s experience and direction of growth are related to wisdom, in particular the wisdom of equanimity and mirror-like wisdom. This can be a very elusive and challenging idea to the mind and is an area that often leads to frustration and disagreement. During such teachings it’s very common for people to bring up the most extreme examples to test the hypothesis. I think it is helpful to recognize this subject matter as occupying the boundary between the mind which judges and the mind’s nature, which has no argument with whatever arises (mirror-like wisdom). The nature of mind does not discriminate between murderer and saint, it is beyond good and evil such that both are a part of life’s experiences. Having a full realization of these aspects of wisdom is rare and I believe Luke’s comments to be an indication of becoming a bit more familiar with inhabiting this territory.

[liminal_luke]

I´ll tell a story that might shed light on my personal evolution with this topic.  I come from a family of status seekers, so when, as a teenager, I announced my plan to become a psychologist my dad objected.

 

Dad: Wouldn´t it be better to be a psychiatrist?  More prestige, more respect.

 

Luke:  But dad, a psychiatrist is a medical doctor and medical school is a lot of work, especially since I´m not interested in all that medical stuff.

 

Dad: Sometimes you have to make sacrifices to get ahead in life.

 

A few years later my dad let me know he had changed his mind; it would be OK if I became a psychologist after all.  I asked what had led him to this about-face.  My dad was a prosecutor and he had to hire a psychologist as an expert witness for a trial he was working on.  The psychologist charged him a lot of money -- oops!

Edited March 26 by liminal_luke

[Apech]

1 hour ago, steve said:

 

 

I think Luke’s experience and direction of growth are related to wisdom, in particular the wisdom of equanimity and mirror-like wisdom. This can be a very elusive and challenging idea to the mind and is an area that often leads to frustration and disagreement. During such teachings it’s very common for people to bring up the most extreme examples to test the hypothesis. I think it is helpful to recognize this subject matter as occupying the boundary between the mind which judges and the mind’s nature, which has no argument with whatever arises (mirror-like wisdom). The nature of mind does not discriminate between murderer and saint, it is beyond good and evil such that both are a part of life’s experiences. Having a full realization of these aspects of wisdom is rare and I believe Luke’s comments to be an indication of becoming a bit more familiar with inhabiting this territory.

well thank you for lumping me in with common folk!

[Apech]

49 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

I´ll tell a story that might shed light on my personal evolution with this topic.  I come from a family of status seekers, so when, as a teenager, I announced my plan to become a psychologist my dad objected.

 

Dad: Wouldn´t it be better to be a psychiatrist?  More prestige, more respect.

 

Luke:  But dad, a psychiatrist is a medical doctor and medical school is a lot of work, especially since I´m not interested in all that medical stuff.

 

Dad: Sometimes you have to make sacrifices to get ahead in life.

 

A few years later my dad let me know he had changed his mind; it would be OK if I became a psychologist after all.  I asked what had led him to this about-face.  My dad was a prosecutor and he had to hire a psychologist as an expert witness for a trial he was working on.  The psychologist charged him a lot of money -- oops!

your dad was right - he wanted you to earn good money and not be a common schmuck! 😃