Spotting a fake master

[steve]

3 hours ago, thelerner said:

Who indeed. Carlos Castaneda.  <so famous, the spell checker corrected me, then corrected me again on the word spell checker>   

I read him when I was younger.  Enjoyed his spiritual/adventure writings, great author for opening up the mind to the esoteric.  Certainly nowhere near as bad as Osho but kinda belongs, imo, in a similar category.  

 

Thanks for clarifying. I loved his books in my youth. Much like Osho, he helped open me up to new ideas and possibilities. Much like Osho, he was probably a fraud and possibly far worse than that if the stories about his later years are true.

[steve]

43 minutes ago, Nungali said:

And of course the biggest lesson in this one is my own failing in this regard

 

Amen!

This is real practice.

I think it was the Dalai Lama who said, “Being aware of a single shortcoming within yourself is far more useful than being aware of a thousand in someone else.”

 

[steve]

On 3/6/2024 at 11:14 AM, liminal_luke said:

I try not to let people's "bad" qualities distract me from their "good" ones.

 

Cudos to you. I’ve been in a position recently of having to help deal with a “bad” one.  Not only is it distracting me from whatever “good” qualities they may possess, it has shaken my trust in an entire system. When these things touch us personally they can cut deep.

[liminal_luke]

1 hour ago, steve said:

 

Cudos to you. I’ve been in a position recently of having to help deal with a “bad” one.  Not only is it distracting me from whatever “good” qualities they may possess, it has shaken my trust in an entire system. When these things touch us personally they can cut deep.

 

I´m sorry to hear that, Steve.  This is a painting my mom did of a bowl that was broken and repaired with gold leaf.  She painted it after having gone through chemotherapy, at a time when she too felt a little broken.  I think she needed to know that in our deepest selves we are not shattered by the things that happen to us; painting the bowl helped her feel her own wholeness.  I´m reminded of a quote from Hemingway: The world breaks everyone and afterwards many are strong in the broken places. 

 

Nobody wants to be betrayed and few of us want to betray.  Nobody wants to discover that someone or something they trusted didn´t deserve their trust.  And yet it happens all the time, even among spiritual teachers.  A part of me thinks it´s a necessary thing, a part of the way things work in this dimension, though of course it never feels that way when it´s happening.  

 

I believe you too will emerge "strong in the broken places."  Take good care...

 

 

Edited March 9 by liminal_luke

[steve]

I appreciate the words of support.

I’m doing fine and so as not to raise any alarm, this doesn’t involve any of my teachers. Some friends have been hurt and my role was mostly consultative. I appreciate the kintsukoroi metaphor, a truly beautiful art. And the process of healing is also beautiful if we are open to it. As silent thunder has stated so well, it is our wounds that open us to what is, the cracks that let the light in (Leonard Cohen). My own spiritual path started as a result of deep trauma and don’t expect to remain unscathed on this Earth, as comfortable and appealing as that might be. 

 

PS - the painting is magnificent!

[Apech]

If you have the patience - or maybe just listen to the first 15 mins or so - but this is a good account of the kind of way that a tulku is recognised.  It is very intuitive - and in this case became subject to a lot of political infighting (which was not a credit to anyone - the Karmapa controversy - mostly now resolved as the two Karmapas are mates).

 

 

[Nungali]

I just remembered  ! 

 

I was  fake spiritual master for a bit  !  

 

Many years ago I   was involved with radio broadcast , community radio  . It was established fairly early , in the local , by then , alternative town (or rapidly becoming 'alternative ' )  . It was this mud brick and wood building  built by local craft people with a lyrebird tile mural on the front wall . I started helping on a pagan show  and its various forms ; ' Pagan Roots '  - we did music and  documentary  stuff and invited people in various fields on air for interviews . Then it went to night time  - 'Pagan Knights ' .  Then I did it by myself for a while  at night ... 'Pagan Knights Rooting ' , but the station knocked that back. It eventually evolved to an all round eclectic  'spiritual'  theme  / world music / various indigenous / and     some 'modern ' stuff .

 

We announced ( I had helpers by then )  that next week , a renown Guru and spiritual master  would be in town  and he would be coming into the show for an interview . We even stuck up some posters .   ' Debloaty Buddha '  was his name   ( that came from  someone  dissing my physique  and proclivity to sprout philosophical snippets at them  ; ' The Bloaty Buddha ' . )

 

It was me of course doing a silly voice  with my co-host interviewing me , and me (in my normal voice ) asking me questions as well .

We also took phone in questions .

 

After a while it became  apparent something was wrong   ...

Q ; " You have an unusual title  ? "

BB ;  " Not in Rangoon  .....  Debloaty is common name . "

Q; " Debloaty is your  name ?  Ok , so, who made you a Buddha ? "

BB:  " .... What ?   ... My parents , I suppose . "

Q;  " Parents?"

BB ; " Yes, Mr and Mrs Buddha . They have a baby , liitle Debloaty, and this is me . "

Q : " Your parents surname was Buddha ? Thats a little unusual ."

BB ; " Not in Rangoon . "

Q: (me as host ) :  " I think someone has made a  stuff  up   here ."

Q ( woman co-host ) : " Okay .. anyway, Mr Buddha ,  we wanted to ask  you about Tantra ... as people around here are very interested in it . "

BB ; " Tantra !  Tantra ?  You want to know about Tantra ? What would a white western woman like you know about about tantra ?  Tantra this, tantra that - you westerners , you just  ..... 'have a good one ' .... and you think it is tantra ! "

 

... and so on .

 

I mean I thought it was obvious  ! But later feedback from listeners  was varied :  ' Who was that nut you had on ' to ' was he a real guru ? '  all the way through to some that thought they where listening to one  but they had trouble understanding his  accent and strange wisdom.

 

 

One guy even kept asking me  who it was ; "  You could not tell ???  It was me ! "

" But but ... I heard you asking him questions and he answered you . "

 

'Dude !  That was just me doing a silly voice . "

 

- so .. aint that hard .

 

 

 

[Celestial Fox Beast]

If he don't fly and trows hadoukens, its fake...

[kakapo]

2 hours ago, Celestial Fox Beast said:

If he don't fly and trows hadoukens, its fake...

 

I would have used different verbiage, but essentially what you say is correct.

 

If the master has no abilities that can be documented objectively then he's not a master, he is a regular person who has learned a philosophy.

 

 

Edited March 10 by kakapo

[Taoist Texts]

1 hour ago, kakapo said:

I would have used different verbiage, but essentially what you say is correct.

i am just wondering, could it be that you perhaps just agreed with someone who needs a professional help? a serious question.

[thelerner]

All depends on how high a bar you set for masterhood and enlightenment.  If one  has spent decades dedicated to their practice, living the path, are sincere, knowledgeable but have no siddhis or powers.  Are they false?  

 

To me, no.  I set a low bar for enlightenment.  It can be psychological state where a person moves smoothly through the world without much ego.  And/or a physical state where a person has achieved an inner orbit of esoteric energy that brings greater vitality and insight.  Yet no outer powers.  

 

Others want demonstrations of powers and siddhis to prove masterhood.  By those standards Mastership is quite rare and maybe laden with fraud.  

[silent thunder]

Nice distinctions lerner...

Mastery of what?  All of life?  Meditation?  What kind?  Internal Energy work?  Define internal... 

 

Which aspect of life is one a master, and who is determining? 

 

Among my trade craft registry I am a recognized master craftsman in the fields of sculptor/fabricator/woodworker/metalsmith... but others may not even be able to recognize let alone gauge my abilities as they've never witnessed them, or they lack familiarity with the material process to assess as a qualified observer.  Does this make me a fake?  In truth, we are all assessed (if we are recognized) by all others we impact... and honestly their take on life is their take... it's not true or not true... it's just their perspective, their story.  Opinion.  Even experience is opinion to a degree... it's interpretive, not objective.

 

Perhaps this is why so many teachers have devout students and intense detractors?  Not all lessons resonate and not all methods of sharing affect others similarly.

 

And mastery occurs in so many varied aspects of life and throughout one's life the process of mastery may grow and diminish.  It is not like some edifice that is built and endures unchanging, mastery... nothing among the manifest is unchanging, it, us and all is always unfolding in presence and confluence of the aggregate influences of all in all.

 

Part of making the claim that any other master is fake... is to by inferrence prop one's self up as The Arbiter who is above them, and by their perception is capable of properly assessing the situation and determining what is the reality as a qualified observer.  This is a narrative and assumption to me.  A product of The Storyteller Within.  The one who makes narratives of snippets of observed phenomenon and projects it into reified noumenon.

 

Naive Realism is the assumption that what arises in our awareness through our perceptions is 100% reality.

This has been patently rejected by philosophers since the Greeks.  We simply do not perceive reality as it is.

 

Humans interpret the transduction process of signals from our environment through our perceptual apparatus.  And those signals are partial information at that... (even with our scientific instruments we perceive directly less than 5% of the universe).  Yet our experience is of a whole universe, so it is natural to perhaps forgive to an extent our capacity to assume we see and can gauge all.

 

Doubting and Observation seem crucial for my process due to the nature of the storyteller and the transductive nature of human perceptual processing.  Absolute certainty always raises the flag of late.

Edited March 10 by silent thunder
clarify

[kakapo]

30 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

i am just wondering, could it be that you perhaps just agreed with someone who needs a professional help? a serious question.

 

A master without abilities that can be objectively demonstrated is just a normal person, and not a master.

 

I agree with that sentiment.

 

Also remember even a broken clock is right twice a day.

[Master Logray]

4 minutes ago, kakapo said:

 

A master without abilities that can be objectively demonstrated is just a normal person, and not a master.

 

I agree with that sentiment.

 

Also remember even a broken clock is right twice a day.

 

Yes, master = philosopher + special powers.   If Jesus never demonstrated anything special, would Christianity even exist with his teachings alone?

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

11 minutes ago, Master Logray said:

 

Yes, master = philosopher + special powers.   If Jesus never demonstrated anything special, would Christianity even exist with his teachings alone?

Look at all major prophets in every major religion. Usually at some point in their life there is a period of meditation, fasting etc. Even with saints we have stories of healing with hands or other “miracles”.

 

Someone who reads a book and can talk about it is just someone who read a book. Not a “master”.

Edited March 10 by -ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-

[Master Logray]

10 minutes ago, -ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ- said:

Look at all major prophets in every major religion. Usually at some point in their life there is a period of meditation, fasting etc. Even with saints we have stories of healing with hands or other “miracles”.

 

Someone who reads a book and can talk about it is just someone who read a book. Not a “master”.

 

I think the term "master" implies a certain preaching/teaching/writing.  A solo cultivator (I don't mean anyone we know) does not count.  Someone who knows the truth of the universe, unless he preaches/teach/write, he is a nobody (again no name implied) if he keeps everything to himself.

 

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

13 minutes ago, Master Logray said:

 

I think the term "master" implies a certain preaching/teaching/writing.  A solo cultivator (I don't mean anyone we know) does not count.  Someone who knows the truth of the universe, unless he preaches/teach/write, he is a nobody (again no name implied) if he keeps everything to himself.

 

What I mean is someone who only talks (but doesn’t practice) cannot be called a true master. What have they mastered? Reading? Words without practice are meaningless.

[Celestial Fox Beast]

If I have to elaborate a bit more... I experience ''some'' spiritual practice, so I recognice some states, sensations, things that happen in those states and experiences... I can spot a fake astral voyager no problem (99.9999% of people that claim to do it basically), I can know who lies about it, who takes self-induced dreams for actual projections, and who is just doing low grade mental projections.

 

Can I demostrate my awesome astral power to someone that has no real experience of the subject?... meh... difficult, maaybe I could focus enough to project to somewhere to see some object or thing that the other person arrange, but spiritual world is a jungle and the phenomenon is much richer and complex than pop culture represent it. With my poor skill that will be difficult (but not impossible).

 

In fact, I participated in some serious studyes about it, here is some footage of my crappy intuition prowess, the fist photo is me in one of those studies:

 

 

 

A 50% on 6 options x 16 times is a bit further than pure chance... the app btw is has been developed by Rusell Targ, one of the researchers on Stargate roject about remote viewing (see Sun Streak and Grill flame, the conclusions of those is that RV is real), I also recomend to read the works of Ingo Swann. Basically they get positives, but reach a limit and the thing is not accurate and confiable enough, after a while, the project changes its researchers and the declassified info just seems a bunch of guess and school grade redactions about the esoteric tendency of the moment to just keep grabing papa state money.

 

So, one answer may be, yes, you can prove your skill to someone that shares some true grade of that skill, but that of course can also apply to any pure suggestive, even false beliefs and dogmatic practices, so... the correct anwer will always be, that true knowledge trascends dogma and can cause real phenomena.

 

This is another example of crappy powers:

 

 

I do think, and know, that if you practice energy/spiritual thingys, you will gain acces to energy/spiritual things, so, naturally, you can trow hadoukens... crappy fart ones if you are a noob like me, and real ones if you are a living Buda.

 

I also belive that, if you attain such level, it may not be even possible to remain in this fake reality, and real people that have achieved such things, are very few in history. Because... let's be real...Jesus and Siddarta Gautama miracles are pretty meh... one died presumably of a meat intoxication, and the other was frikking crucified alive... yeah.. for our sins... wathever... (I DO think that both Jesus and Buda where exceptional indidivuals that have attained a form of trascendance, but apparently that don't allow them to be Son Goku... just saints on stereoids)

 

I also belive that the hability to fly depicted in inmortals of ancient China, refers more to spiritual fly.

 

But... yes, a true practicioner must be capable of show at least some crappy powers.

Edited March 10 by Celestial Fox Beast

[Taoist Texts]

1 hour ago, kakapo said:

Also remember even a broken clock is right twice a day.

but of course. how to determine if a clock is broken? easy. if a clock under inspection  agrees a with a broken clock  at least once...then it is broken too. not that there is anything wrong with it!

1 hour ago, Master Logray said:

If Jesus never demonstrated anything special, would Christianity even exist with his teachings alone?

i see you pooh-pooh the tremendous power of wishful fantasizing;)

 

 

 

Edited March 10 by Taoist Texts

[snowymountains]

3 hours ago, Master Logray said:

 

If Jesus never demonstrated anything special, would Christianity even exist with his teachings alone?

 

Maybe it wouldn't had existed, but did anyone ever demonstrate ever anything special?

[Mark Foote]

On 3/6/2024 at 12:22 PM, idiot_stimpy said:

 

How does one at a glance see energy and upper mental bodies? Is this some type of ESP almost everyone does not have?

 

 

 

 

 

[Nungali]

5 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

i am just wondering, could it be that you perhaps just agreed with someone who needs a professional help? a serious question.

 

Well, I thought it was a good post . from now on I am rejecting all masters that can not fly  !

 

 

[Nungali]

1 hour ago, snowymountains said:

 

Maybe it wouldn't had existed, but did anyone ever demonstrate ever anything special?

 

yeah ... strange that people think Christianity became accepted and spread world wide due to Jesus' magic tricks  .  

 

 

[Celestial Fox Beast]

1 hour ago, snowymountains said:

 

Maybe it wouldn't had existed, but did anyone ever demonstrate ever anything special?

 

Well... yes, there is a lot of well documented stuff, you can search the case of Emilie Sagee, who seems to bilocate a sort of doppelganger of herself without any control, or some taumaturgic saints, even most recent ones like that one from Barcelona from 1800 something that can teleport, or more recent history... Ingo Swann, Fassman (Josep Mir Rocafort) who even have his mental powers cheched by CIA and rejected to work with them.

 

Of course there is always fraud and fakes, but there is real phenomena as well if you search objectevily.

 

Is it that hard to think that, someone that studies the spiritual, could reach spiritual phenomena? you can reply... well.. there is thousands of people meditating and following ascetic religions, why we don't see any of it from them? My guess on that, is that they are doing it wrong.

 

Did I know how to do it wrigth? hell no... but if you want diferent results, try something different, that's what I'm trying at least.

Edited March 10 by Celestial Fox Beast

[Nungali]

19 minutes ago, Mark Foote said:

 

 

 

 

 

hey . wait a minute .... Rocky can fly cant he ?  .... 'Spiritual master '  !