Spotting a fake master

[ChiDragon]

13 hours ago, idiot_stimpy said:

What advice or tips would you give in order to help someone spot a fake master?

 

Someone saying they're enlightened when they really are not?

 

Is there anyway to actually tell?

If your master tells you that breathing has nothing to do with Chi Kung, then stay away from IT.

Edited March 2 by ChiDragon

[Apech]

51 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

 

@Maddie @Apech

 

The Theravadan view is discussed by Bhikkhu Bodhi https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/bodhi/bps-essay_27.html 

 

If the argument is don't question realised Buddhists ( whatever that means ), then it simply translates to which realised Buddhists.. realised Theravada or realised Mahayana..

 

Which again simply becomes a question of textual references, ie if the Vimalakirti Sutra has its origins in the historical Buddha.

 

 

By realised Buddhist I meant one who has achieved realization of the nature of mind/reality.  For instance a zen or Tibetan master.  Although textual references are important they are not as important as direct insight or prajna.

[old3bob]

and someone else's realization, no matter its level, is not ours even if we can quote it word for word doctrine wise or in any other way.

Edited March 2 by old3bob

[The Biggest Nobody]

6 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

k

[The Biggest Nobody]

ignored

[Zoya]

If they speak more of what they're teaching: they're legit

If they speak more of themselves: they're fake

 

Glory hounds only mastered the art of self-flattery.

Edited March 2 by Zoya
grammar

[The Biggest Nobody]

8 hours ago, Apech said:

yes but what if sex is the entertainment? 

I think the young boys and men in my generation are waking up to the idea that sex is fleeting and it is not just simple "entertainment". To keep it a buck, they are still in the minority but it I think people are waking up slowly but surely.

[Nungali]

5 hours ago, Apech said:

 

I'm going to grow bangs to celebrate.

 

 

 

 Dude !  You sure get around ;  I made a mistake at first and instead of searching for 'white cat with a fringe' .... I typoed ' white cat with a frige ' .... ;

 

 

 

 

[Nungali]

5 hours ago, old3bob said:

 

not really since there aren't vast differences...being that most have non-duality pointers and many similar meanings about the masters and ways of their schools.  If I had included Abrahamic schools then the differences and meanings would be vast.

 

Yes .  That can be very clear and is , in some cases , clearly outlined .  One is the ability to spontaneously sprout relevant wisdom in a complex poetic form that contains  deeper mysteries ( re content , multi-level meaning and  analogies , rhythm and metre  that are revealed from further study ) , ie.  they have a direct  link with the 'superconscious' , not something  normal consciousness can do .

 

 

[Nungali]

... I will see if I can find a reference to it .

[Nungali]

3 hours ago, silent thunder said:

 

Me too.  (hoping this won't be replied to as it may mean i already am)

 

 

 

On another site I used to frequent  , some newby complainer got modded and he responded to the Mod that warned him  with ;

 

'Right,  I am putting you on my ignore list ! '

 

 

Mod response was ;  ' Now you are on this site's ignore list . '

[The Biggest Nobody]

8 hours ago, snowymountains said:

 

Theravada Bhikkhus charge exactly zero for teachings, Dhamma teachings are not meant to be a source of profit. Zen Roshis charge something but it more or less reflects simple maintainance costs.

 

I agree with the money criterion. Not everyone who charges is a fraud of course, but I've noticed everyone who charges a lot, including entire traditions, tend to create artificial progressions, curriculums and gatekeeping in ways which "coincidentally" are super profitable.

The notion of being under a Master has always been a troublesome thought to me. As snowymountains astutely pointed out, the so-called "Master" in most cases charges a large sum of money for a "retreat."

Another user stated several years ago Wang Li Ping charged $5000 for a few days at his retreat (who knows how much more expensive it is now), to me that is daylight robbery. Don't get me wrong it is for sure a very lucrative business and his classes may be renowned. But it appears to me that they just capitalize on individuals at their lowest, who are in their honest pursuit of spiritual well-being and mental health, are being taken advantage of. Not to mention forsaking the many who are not financially well off.

Edited March 2 by The Biggest Nobody

[Nungali]

1 hour ago, Nungali said:

... I will see if I can find a reference to it .

 

I could not find the one I was thinking of but the list below covers what I referred to and other signs .

 

I chose a Baha'i source as it is a continuation of the 'stream inside'  Abrahamic faith , or , of a similar cultural heritage .  The Baha'is developed originally out of a stream of 'Persian Spirituality ' that was eclectic  as well as having its own strong base  and developed through the period of the Islamic enlightenment  and through the adoption of hermetic science .  They had many teachers  with mystical attainments  and a system of recognising them .

 

" His qualities are here presented in four categories:  Propagation, Protection, Enthusiasm, and the Energy that Characterized His Activities.

The following quotes are all from Shoghi Effendi and from Nabil
 

TEACHING

~ fearless

~ persuasively expounded its truths

~ persuasive eloquence

~ magnetic eloquence

~ instantly acclaimed its truth, and arose to champion its cause

~ won to its support a large number of the officials and notables

~ won to its support . . . His own associates and relatives

~ was able to foster its growth, elucidate its principles, reinforce its ethical foundations, fulfill its urgent requirements

~ spreading, with ... enthusiasm and ability ... the teachings

~ By His magnetic eloquence, by the purity of His life, by the dignity of His bearing, by the unanswerable logic of His argument, and by the many evidences of His loving-kindness, Bahá'u'lláh had won the hearts of the people . . . had stirred their souls, and had enrolled them under the standard of the Faith.
 

PROTECTION

safeguarding the interests of His Faith

was able to . . .  avert some of the immediate dangers threatening it 

at all times vigilant, ready and indefatigable in His exertions to preserve the integrity of that Faith. . . and to confound its antagonists
 

ENCOURAGEMENT

reviving the zeal of its grief-stricken followers, and . . . organizing the forces of its scattered and bewildered adherents.

 

THE ENERGY THAT CHARACTERIZED HIS EXERTIONS

~ endowed with inexhaustible energy

~ indefatigable in His exertions
 

~ strenuous efforts
 

~ uncontrollable enthusiasm

 

https://bahai-insights.blogspot.com/2010/07/qualities-of-bahaullah-as-teacher.html

 

.

 

 

Edited March 2 by Nungali

[Dedicated]

Caring for the elderly can be a good sign

[snowymountains]

5 hours ago, Apech said:

By realised Buddhist I meant one who has achieved realization of the nature of mind/reality.  For instance a zen or Tibetan master.  Although textual references are important they are not as important as direct insight or prajna.

 

So.. you mean only the nondual schools and say don't question their masters ?

 

Its 100% a matter of textual reference, the masters, with direct insight or not, say exactly what their school's texts say on this topic..

 

Edited March 2 by snowymountains

[idiot_stimpy]

13 hours ago, The Biggest Nobody said:

Your post appears to be a response to recent discussions, likely influenced by me. Therefore, I will first contribute then present my defense, given my frequent self-identification as a Master.

 

Hi Solo Cultivator. Actually the post was driven by a certain self proclaimed enlightened master on Youtube that proclaims they're a sannyasin of Osho being Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh. 

 

For the most part all answers seem true, just their responses feel quite contrived and not naturally flowing as I would expect.

 

I could post the Youtube channel link address but don't want this to turn into a witch-hunt criticizing slinging exercise of the said channel. 

[Dedicated]

I don't choose Osho as my teacher, but I did enjoy the company of a few Sannyasin growing up

[idiot_stimpy]

11 hours ago, Cobie said:

 

sex and money

A real master does not have sex with you, full stop.

A real master does not demand much money, just the normal entertainer fees. 

 

 

 

I believe the master in question had a Buddha at the Gas Pump interview taken down due to allegations.

[snowymountains]

2 minutes ago, idiot_stimpy said:

 

I believe the master in question had a Buddha at the Gas Pump interview taken down due to allegations.

 

If there are allegations I'd try to understand if they are founded first.

 

If I couldn't understand that because it's not straightforward, I'd wait for the Court to find out first, and only if he's cleared of all charges would I revisit the question of studying with him

[idiot_stimpy]

2 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

...and only if he's cleared of all charges would I revisit the question of studying with him

 

I don't plan to be his student but do enjoy his videos in passing. 

 

One thing I noticed is that people can be extremely charismatic in speech and can come across as enlightened speech when its not.

[snowymountains]

1 hour ago, idiot_stimpy said:

 

I don't plan to be his student but do enjoy his videos in passing. 

 

One thing I noticed is that people can be extremely charismatic in speech and can come across as enlightened speech when its not.

 

Up to you, tbh if I had concerns he might be one of those enlightened abusers, I'd refrain from financing his legal fees either through direct video paid subscriptions or views/advertising income

[Apech]

3 hours ago, snowymountains said:

 

So.. you mean only the nondual schools and say don't question their masters ?

 

Its 100% a matter of textual reference, the masters, with direct insight or not, say exactly what their school's texts say on this topic..

 

That’s not quite what I am saying but I don’t want to derail this topic so I’ll leave it there.

[snowymountains]

7 minutes ago, Apech said:

That’s not quite what I am saying but I don’t want to derail this topic so I’ll leave it there.

 

Not interested in this discussion either, but then "conclusions of actual realized Buddhists", which you mentioned, is also irrelevant and @Maddie 's point on lack of a universal definition of "enlightened" still stands.

[idiot_stimpy]

It's ok to derail the topic if you're enjoying the discussion and find it simulating in some way. 

 

I have been absent from TTB for so long so any discussion is welcome.

[blue eyed snake]

5 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

I could not find the one I was thinking of but the list below covers what I referred to and other signs .

 

I chose a Baha'i source as it is a continuation of the 'stream inside'  Abrahamic faith , or , of a similar cultural heritage .  The Baha'is developed originally out of a stream of 'Persian Spirituality ' that was eclectic  as well as having its own strong base  and developed through the period of the Islamic enlightenment  and through the adoption of hermetic science .  They had many teachers  with mystical attainments  and a system of recognising them .

 

" His qualities are here presented in four categories:  Propagation, Protection, Enthusiasm, and the Energy that Characterized His Activities.

The following quotes are all from Shoghi Effendi and from Nabil
 

TEACHING

~ fearless

~ persuasively expounded its truths

~ persuasive eloquence

~ magnetic eloquence

~ instantly acclaimed its truth, and arose to champion its cause

~ won to its support a large number of the officials and notables

~ won to its support . . . His own associates and relatives

~ was able to foster its growth, elucidate its principles, reinforce its ethical foundations, fulfill its urgent requirements

~ spreading, with ... enthusiasm and ability ... the teachings

~ By His magnetic eloquence, by the purity of His life, by the dignity of His bearing, by the unanswerable logic of His argument, and by the many evidences of His loving-kindness, Bahá'u'lláh had won the hearts of the people . . . had stirred their souls, and had enrolled them under the standard of the Faith.
 

PROTECTION

safeguarding the interests of His Faith

was able to . . .  avert some of the immediate dangers threatening it 

at all times vigilant, ready and indefatigable in His exertions to preserve the integrity of that Faith. . . and to confound its antagonists
 

ENCOURAGEMENT

reviving the zeal of its grief-stricken followers, and . . . organizing the forces of its scattered and bewildered adherents.

 

THE ENERGY THAT CHARACTERIZED HIS EXERTIONS

~ endowed with inexhaustible energy

~ indefatigable in His exertions
 

~ strenuous efforts
 

~ uncontrollable enthusiasm

 

https://bahai-insights.blogspot.com/2010/07/qualities-of-bahaullah-as-teacher.html

 

.

 

 

 

thank you Nungali,

this is a wonderful list