The Clarity Aspect in Buddhism

[Apech]

2 minutes ago, dwai said:

Ah the allure of becoming immortal and maintaining doership  

 

It's not an allure at all.  It surprises me somewhat that you don't get this as it is encoded in all the major systems that I am aware of.  But people prefer the easy way.

 

 

[Bindi]

6 hours ago, Apech said:

 

It's not an allure at all.  It surprises me somewhat that you don't get this as it is encoded in all the major systems that I am aware of.  But people prefer the easy way.

 

 

Does this (that cleansox posted in another thread just now) speak to your thoughts on the matter?

 

Quote

 

However, if people only know the path of nondoing is the essential marvel and do not know the path of doing is the foundation, not knowing doing, only nondoing, they are not only unable to cultivate life, they are also unable to cultivate essence. Even if they have some cultivation, it is only cultivation of the acquired nature - how can they cultivate the primordial fundamental essence.

 

Liu Yiming 

Wuzhen pian, 42/64.

 

 

 

[Cleansox]

12 hours ago, dwai said:

Ah the allure of becoming immortal and maintaining doership 

So, one might as the question "what is the purpose of developing a rainbow body"? 

 

Becoming an energy blob that retain ones personality, so one can control later generations of ones lineage or family? 

 

Or, "... whereupon, in a way greatly superior to meditation on emptiness alone, the dualistic impressions of apprehended and apprehender cease." 

 

The work leading to this kind of transformation is seen, by the traditions that do it, as "the ground for actualising the inner state of union". 

 

It can be laid out in a more childish way:

 

A: "Everything is Mind."

B: "Prove it." 

 

Is it necessary to do a full body transformation? 

Who knows. 

Why not let the choice of path be just another individual choice. Both sides believe that their choice is excellent. 

Historically, it has been argued about. 

[Apech]

5 hours ago, Bindi said:

Does this (that cleansox posted in another thread just now) speak to your thoughts on the matter?

 

 

 

 

 

Xing and Ming basically ...and the alchemical work.  Anything else, as Gampopa put it a brief rest.

 

 

[dwai]

44 minutes ago, Cleansox said:

So, one might as the question "what is the purpose of developing a rainbow body"? 

 

Becoming an energy blob that retain ones personality, so one can control later generations of ones lineage or family? 

 

Fascinating stuff  

44 minutes ago, Cleansox said:

 

Or, "... whereupon, in a way greatly superior to meditation on emptiness alone, the dualistic impressions of apprehended and apprehender cease." 

 

Where do these dualistic impressions occur? And where do they cease? 

44 minutes ago, Cleansox said:

The work leading to this kind of transformation is seen, by the traditions that do it, as "the ground for actualising the inner state of union". 

 

It can be laid out in a more childish way:

 

A: "Everything is Mind."

B: "Prove it." 

 

Is it necessary to do a full body transformation? 

Who knows. 
 

Never denied that body needs to be worked on - but only as a preparatory step for meditation. 

44 minutes ago, Cleansox said:

 

Why not let the choice of path be just another individual choice. Both sides believe that their choice is excellent. 

Historically, it has been argued about. 

 These are only opinions. 

[old3bob]

no matter how great one side or the other is at pulling, the trap will remain for both.

Edited August 12, 2021 by old3bob

[Cleansox]

50 minutes ago, dwai said:

Where do these dualistic impressions occur? And where do they cease? 

The question is not whether or not one work with the Mind. The question is, if one leaves a rotting corpse behind, have one fully realised that everything is Mind? 

Or has one dissociated oneself from the physical aspects of the body, and just flipped the dualistic coin so the other side is up? 

50 minutes ago, dwai said:

Never denied that body needs to be worked on - but only as a preparatory step for meditation. 

See above. 

[Cleansox]

And, the practice is fun. 

Just worth mentioning. 😁 

[Creation]

1 hour ago, dwai said:

Never denied that body needs to be worked on - but only as a preparatory step for meditation. 

In the systems I'm familiar with that emphasize the type of awakening being discussed in this thread, it is considered that "post awakening" practice is just as important as pre awakening practice.  The practices done pre and post awakening are often the same practices, pre awakening they are done to facilitate awakening, post-awakening they are done to refine and integrate the awakening.  And a highly integrated awakening is considered to have a transformative effect on the body.  Tibetan paths are well known for claiming this, but I've recently learned this is also true in traditional Rinzai Zen, per teachings that are usually oral tradition only.  

 

If this interests anyone check out the teachings of Meido Moore Roshi, for instance

https://www.amazon.com/Hidden-Zen-Practices-Awakening-Realization/dp/1611808464

[dwai]

39 minutes ago, Cleansox said:

The question is not whether or not one work with the Mind. The question is, if one leaves a rotting corpse behind, have one fully realised that everything is Mind? 

Or has one dissociated oneself from the physical aspects of the body, and just flipped the dualistic coin so the other side is up? 

See above. 

 Why such attachment to that which is ephemeral? Corpse rots as prana leaves the body. But even prana is simply a substance that appears in awareness itself. It is also in the realm of duality. 
 

It is true that it is possible to be in a position to materialize/dematerialize a body, bilocate etc via yogic Siddhis, but they have nothing to do with realization. If you read Patanjali’s yoga sutras — he clearly calls them out as (and I’m paraphrasing) side-attractions.

 

Are their beings who operate at a different/higher plane of existence? Sure. Doesn’t make it non-dual. Even deities can have suffering — of a different kind and at a different time scale. 

 

[dwai]

2 hours ago, Cleansox said:

And, the practice is fun. 

Just worth mentioning. 😁 

Of course it is. I’ve been doing it for more than 20 years now  

 

But the objective needs to be clear, and the assumption of causality needs to be clarified as well — practice will not produce realization. It builds the conditions which makes realization easier. Realization happens only in/via the mind. 

[forestofemptiness]

To evaluate all paths, one needs to be a Buddha or Dr. Strange: 

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

Edited August 12, 2021 by forestofemptiness

[forestofemptiness]

16 hours ago, Apech said:

 

I mean that the idea that the end point of spiritual development is just realising 'consciousness' in some sense or other is not correct.

 

How do you know? Not trying to be argumentative, just curious. 

[Apech]

28 minutes ago, forestofemptiness said:

 

How do you know? Not trying to be argumentative, just curious. 

 

Vast wisdom, old chap, pure and simple.

[old3bob]

47 minutes ago, dwai said:

Of course it is. I’ve been doing it for more than 20 years now  

 

But the objective needs to be clear, and the assumption of causality needs to be clarified as well — practice will not produce realization. It builds the conditions which makes realization easier. Realization happens only in/via the mind. 

 

I'd put it as not in the mind which is of things, but when mind is perfectly stilled... 

Edited August 12, 2021 by old3bob

[silent thunder]

wait... what is Mind again? 

[liminal_luke]

Can we really distinguish between mind and body?  Perhaps they are two doors that open into the same chamber.  That working on the mind effects what we call the body and vice versa.  If work with the mind hasn´t yet transformed the body, there´s more mindwork to be done.  If work with the body hasn´t yet transformed the mind, there´s more bodywork to be done.

 

Or am I missing something?

[Cleansox]

2 hours ago, dwai said:

 

But the objective needs to be clear, and the assumption of causality needs to be clarified as well — practice will not produce realization. It builds the conditions which makes realization easier. Realization happens only in/via the mind. 

And yet, there are traditions that claims that the process that leads to a full body transformation is also a process that deepen/complete/(add term that says the result is more useful) realization. 

 

So the objective is realization, and I guess that the signs when one "sheds the husk" is a confirmation on the success of the above process, not a goal in it self. 

I put in an "I guess" there, because I have no knowledge of how other traditions set up their goals. 

 

There shouldn't be an attachment involved, although for others in any tradition, having a senior in that lineage leaving with a light show is definetly a confirmational sign that one is part of a tradition based upon good practice. 

 

As you are aware of, this subject has been discussed for a milennia or two, and most of the older traditions have spent a considerable time to sharpen arguments that supports the view of that tradition. 

 

If someone believe that realization is Mind only, that someone shouldn't spend time on those methods that involve body transformation. 

 

And the other way around, if someone believe that including body transformation is a good idea, by all means invest time in that. 

[Cleansox]

27 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

Or am I missing something?

A milennia of dogma and bickering, so not really 😁

[silent thunder]

Hey!  Someone's karma ran over my dogma!

[dwai]

20 minutes ago, Cleansox said:

And yet, there are traditions that claims that the process that leads to a full body transformation is also a process that deepen/complete/(add term that says the result is more useful) realization. 

 

So the objective is realization, and I guess that the signs when one "sheds the husk" is a confirmation on the success of the above process, not a goal in it self. 

I put in an "I guess" there, because I have no knowledge of how other traditions set up their goals. 

 

There shouldn't be an attachment involved, although for others in any tradition, having a senior in that lineage leaving with a light show is definetly a confirmational sign that one is part of a tradition based upon good practice. 

 

As you are aware of, this subject has been discussed for a milennia or two, and most of the older traditions have spent a considerable time to sharpen arguments that supports the view of that tradition. 
 

 

20 minutes ago, Cleansox said:

If someone believe that realization is Mind only, that someone shouldn't spend time on those methods that involve body transformation. 
 

can anyone say “my Kidney had a realization” or my “liver had a realization” or even my “heart had a realization”? Imho, saying that the “body” realizes is an absurd proposition. Realization can only ever be in the mind. 

20 minutes ago, Cleansox said:

And the other way around, if someone believe that including body transformation is a good idea, by all means invest time in that. 

Transform into what? A puff of smoke? A flash of light? To what effect? (I know, I know, to become a fully liberated immortal who can traverse through the universe/multiverse if/as they wish). 
 

When a drop of water enters the ocean, it doesn’t lose itself — it becomes the ocean itself. It doesn’t need to remain a small independent part of the ocean. 

[liminal_luke]

35 minutes ago, dwai said:

 

can anyone say “my Kidney had a realization” or my “liver had a realization” or even my “heart had a realization”? Imho, saying that the “body” realizes is an absurd proposition. Realization can only ever be in the mind. 

 

 

I can´t speak to this question from personal experience, but my former Zapchen coach, Laura Lund, told me that it´s possible to ask your liver a question and get an answer back.  Which leads me to think that maybe yes, realization can take place in the liver, kidneys, etc.  I´m told that the Taoists view the various organs as having (or being?) spirits -- hun, po, etc.  From a western medical perspective, it seems to me that researchers are increasingly discovering hitherto unknown connections between the vital organs and what we call the "mind"  -- the gut-brain axis, cardioneurology, etc.  

Edited August 12, 2021 by liminal_luke

[freeform]

14 minutes ago, dwai said:

Imho, saying that the “body” realizes is an absurd proposition.

I wonder why body is still characterised as being separate from mind?

 

15 minutes ago, dwai said:

my “liver had a realization”

Thats not far from what many Daoists would say.

 

Except they don’t see the liver as discreet and separate from the mind, the body, even the divine Spirit… they see it as a physical manifestation of a certain spectrum of ‘the light’ of Spirit as it refracts into being in our physical realm.

[MIchael80]

11 minutes ago, dwai said:

 

can anyone say “my Kidney had a realization” or my “liver had a realization” or even my “heart had a realization”? Imho, saying that the “body” realizes is an absurd proposition. Realization can only ever be in the mind. 

Transform into what? A puff of smoke? A flash of light? To what effect? (I know, I know, to become a fully liberated immortal who can traverse through the universe/multiverse if/as they wish). 
 

When a drop of water enters the ocean, it doesn’t lose itself — it becomes the ocean itself. It doesn’t need to remain a small independent part of the ocean. 

Well, exactly ... the body can awaken...the organs can awaken.

First there is pure awareness and things as they are but as the fixation of "this is the final realization " goes something new reveals itself. That everything is consciousness and with that it moves through all layers of existence and all the layers awaken (physical of course the slowest)...it is a natural process but can be blocked by the believe of "this is the final realization ".

There is for ex. realization beyond pure awareness or prior to that....(nisargadatha was maybe the first in more modern times who spoke about that....today several teachers and awake people do but it is still not mentioned widely, for ex. David Buckland, Lorne and Lucia Hoff, Andrew Hewson, Kristin kirk)

 

And the more this process continues the less dense the physical body becomes and the more awake. Teachers and awake people talking about that for ex. are Dorothy Rowe,  Kristin Kirk, David Buckland, Lorne Hoff, Hari Alto etc)

 

All the old neidan schools have it and call it "completing the dao". Dzogchen has it, vajrayana has it....old Tamil siddha traditions have it etc. etc.

 

[dwai]

Try this out - hold your hand up look at your palm. Are you seeing your palm or is your palm seeing you?