The Clarity Aspect in Buddhism

[Apech]

1 hour ago, dwai said:

See the previous comment  

 

[dwai]

21 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

There’s only One snake, eating it’s tail — ouroboros 

[Apech]

9 minutes ago, dwai said:

There’s only One snake, eating it’s tail — ouroboros 

 

Ourobviously.

Edited August 13, 2021 by Apech

[dwai]

19 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

Ourobviously.

Apechially when it’s that ourobvious  

[freeform]

3 hours ago, dwai said:

Body is a matrix of energetic activity that appears in awareness.

But it’s not separate from it, right? It’s a continuation of what you call awareness…

 

3 hours ago, dwai said:

That’s why beyond a certain point (of realization of the fact that it IS an appearance in awareness) it is no use to “work” on it for said realization.

Yup - completely agree.

 

The point is that this realisation is seen as the initial step into spiritual practice in the Daoist alchemical arts. Once the realisation is achieved - then begins true spiritual practice. Anything before is preparatory.

 

The foundational levels in alchemy are used to support the achieving of this realisation… what could be deemed crossing the ‘mysterious gate’. Once it is crossed, then spiritual practice begins. 

 

[dwai]

Just now, freeform said:

But it’s not separate from it, right? It’s a continuation of what you call awareness…

I wouldn't use the term "continuation" -- rather, an appearance within awareness. No "thing" is apart from Awareness -- just like no image is apart from the TV screen.

 

Just like we wouldn't call an image a continuation of a TV screen, similarly, we shouldn't call the body or the world a continuation of awareness.

 

I'm not being pedantic from a semantical perspective here -- continuity implies phenomenon -- which is in the domain of space and time. Awareness is neither in space nor in time. The illusion of space and time appears in awareness. One's choice of words reflects their perspective -- if we care to read/listen/hear properly. 

 

Just now, freeform said:

Yup - completely agree.

 

The point is that this realisation is seen as the initial step into spiritual practice in the Daoist alchemical arts. Once the realisation is achieved - then begins true spiritual practice. Anything before is preparatory.

 

The foundational levels in alchemy are used to support the achieving of this realisation… what could be deemed crossing the ‘mysterious gate’. Once it is crossed, then spiritual practice begins. 

 

I understand that. The point I've been consistently trying to make is, it is a good idea to clarify what it is that one is seeking vis-a-vis spiritual practice.

 

From my point of view, IMHO -- it is quite alright to continue to practice everything one has practiced before the realization, only the attitude towards the practice will be quite transformed. One can approach the practice without the sense of it being a chore, or a means to realization, but rather as something to be enjoyed and explored.

 

[freeform]

1 hour ago, dwai said:

One can approach the practice without the sense of it being a chore, or a means to realization, but rather as something to be enjoyed and explored.

 

Indeed. Much more worthwhile approach.

 

1 hour ago, dwai said:

I wouldn't use the term "continuation" -- rather, an appearance within awareness. No "thing" is apart from Awareness -- just like no image is apart from the TV screen.

 

Just like we wouldn't call an image a continuation of a TV screen, similarly, we shouldn't call the body or the world a continuation of awareness.

 

Ok I see. it's seen as one of the endless phenomena and manifestations arising in awareness from your understanding.

 

That's not quite how it's seen in Daoist traditions.

 

The body is a microcosm - your body is a reflection of your Spirit (along with everything that obscures it). Your liver might be a useful physical organ in the body, but it's also the quality of upwards movement in your Qi field, the emotional quality of anger/frustration/motivation and even the triple-aspect of your soul that transmigrates and connects your soul to the souls of your parents and of humanity as a whole.

 

That's why 'light shows' (as Cleansox puts it) form such a prominent aspect of this tradition... Once spirit is transformed, the body is too - there's no way for it not to be.

[dwai]

1 hour ago, freeform said:

The body is a microcosm - your body is a reflection of your Spirit (along with everything that obscures it). Your liver might be a useful physical organ in the body, but it's also the quality of upwards movement in your Qi field, the emotional quality of anger/frustration/motivation and even the triple-aspect of your soul that transmigrates and connects your soul to the souls of your parents and of humanity as a whole.

I guess this is where I would say that what you're referencing is a dualistic paradigm. There's nothing wrong with it -- but it is considered relative truth in the dharma traditions. It is very much part of the Hindu/Buddhist tradition as well, only not considered a realized perspective. 

[forestofemptiness]

I don't think people mean the same thing when they say "mind" or "awareness."

[Nungali]

.

Edited August 13, 2021 by Nungali

[Nungali]

19 hours ago, dwai said:

Hamsa means swan in Sanskrit  

 

But ,    you know  what   I   mean . 

[Nungali]

10 hours ago, Apech said:

 

I asked first.

 

 

First means porcupine in Sanskrit .

[MIchael80]

19 hours ago, dwai said:

I’ve never heard any “awake” person say their body has had realizations. But that is really beside the point. The idea was to illustrate a point that the aware subject is not the body. This is at the Vedanta 101 level   

Do the eyes see? Or does the “subject” see through the eyes? 

I’ll certainly check it out. Had never heard of him before  

Interesting. If you are referring to what Nisargadatta Maharaj called “turiyatita”, that really is a misnomer. Turiya as you know is called the “fourth” when it is recognized as another state of awareness (after waking, dreaming and deep sleep). So to go beyond Turiya is to realize that waking, dreaming and deep sleep are appearances in awareness alone (turiya). So turiya is not a fourth anymore — it is the absolute reality. 

Hi! 

 

I still havent figured out how to quote parts 😂😂

 

So i will reply just in order...

 

I would say the body is the aware subject...the Body has it just forgotten so to say...but it can also remember. 

 

I named several awake teachers and people. 

 

Davids Blog is davidya.ca... the vids can be found by just searching him on YouTube. The vids together with teacher Andrew Hewson are also on his YouTube channel.

Lorne and Lucia Hoff are on lucialorn.net

The others can be googled.

 

https://www.lucialorn.net/states-of-consciousness

Here they try to describe this unfolding starting from the 4th state through absolut awareness, to awareness recognizing itself to be the same as the appearances within it to beyond absolute awareness.  Hope you enjoy it.😊

 

I would say that the subject as you called it sees this world through the eyes....if the eyes are injured no seeing of this world. 

 

No turiyata ... Not the 4. ... as you say in awareness alone. I spoke about beyond that...he called it "prior to awareness " parapraman. I am not much into him ...just read that at the end of his live he spoke about that to close diciples... that there is "something " beyond absolute awareness. 

I found David and Lorne and Lucia Hoff because i had "experienced" this falling out of absolut awareness but could not find any references to that. But David did as the Hoffs or now Andrew Hewson...and they also speak about the subtle perception. (The body waking up)

 

I like that you want to be excact with words ... than you will like Davids approach as he tries that too ...to find out where in the unfolding someone is. 😊

 

 

Edited August 14, 2021 by MIchael80

[freeform]

13 hours ago, dwai said:

guess this is where I would say that what you're referencing is a dualistic paradigm.

Indeed.
 

Though to be fair much of life is on the dualistic paradigm - including you forming that sentence and typing those words.

 

The dualistic nature we find ourselves in is seen as a precious gift in some traditions… as it affords us the ability to cultivate. 
 

[Piyadasi]

13 hours ago, dwai said:

I guess this is where I would say that what you're referencing is a dualistic paradigm. There's nothing wrong with it -- but it is considered relative truth in the dharma traditions. It is very much part of the Hindu/Buddhist tradition as well, only not considered a realized perspective. 

Since you mention Buddhism and this is thread about Buddhism it seems, it might be worth considering that according to the teachings found in the Pali Suttas(at least from what I remember reading), the non-dualistic perspective is not considered realized either. The Buddha mentions that the highest form of non-dualism is abiding in the Formless Jhana of the Infinitude of Consciousness. There are 2 (or 3) 'higher' formless Jhanas (traditionally), then there's more after that as well on the way to enlightenment, etc.

 

15 minutes ago, freeform said:

The dualistic nature we find ourselves in is seen as a precious gift in some traditions… as it affords us the ability to cultivate. 

I also remember reading that the Buddha says that people who 'only' (lol) got as far as completely transforming their very being so after death they are 'reborn' on the 'level' of one of the Formless Jhanas have essentially missed the mark as far as attaining the final goal goes, and (traditionally) he laments that his earlier teachers ended up there since he can't reach them for a very very long time, even psychically in those states to help complete their path. (I'm sure it can't be that bad tho haha)

-

This is just what I remember from the texts, certainly not an issue I understand or have any experience with really.

[dwai]

2 hours ago, freeform said:

Indeed.
 

Though to be fair much of life is on the dualistic paradigm - including you forming that sentence and typing those words.

 

The dualistic nature we find ourselves in is seen as a precious gift in some traditions… as it affords us the ability to cultivate. 
 

Yes of course it is precious and all. Only until it doesn’t ensnare you in a vicious cycle of clinging and aversions  

[freeform]

1 hour ago, dwai said:

Only until it doesn’t ensnare you in a vicious cycle of clinging and aversions  

Indeed - life is a double-edged sword - with both the potential to transform one’s karma and to create a lot more.

 

It’s also worth noting that ones who have awakened do not escape this process - in fact, they open up an avenue for karmic tendencies to arise from the unconscious.
 

Often, if they stop their cultivation too soon, these tendencies get free reign. They get caught ‘awake at the wheel’ and end up causing untold suffering while happily residing in blissful awareness.

Hence the all too familiar fallen guru archetype.

[steve]

The recent discussion  brings to mind for me the koan attributed to Linji Yixuan:

If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him!

 

I won’t get into my own interpretation as I think this, one of my favorite koans, is rich and multi-layered but I think it gets to the heart of the discussion from a Buddhist perspective.

 

[Creation]

5 hours ago, freeform said:

It’s also worth noting that ones who have awakened do not escape this process - in fact, they open up an avenue for karmic tendencies to arise from the unconscious.
 

Often, if they stop their cultivation too soon, these tendencies get free reign. They get caught ‘awake at the wheel’ and end up causing untold suffering while happily residing in blissful awareness.

My nonduality teacher says the exact same thing .  I'm realizing that I am only interested in a very particular strain of nonduality teachings, that can be markedly different from what is often put under that term, certainly from the people you describe having experience with.  And as you know I'm holding faith that it is compatible with the Daoist training that I'm involved in.  

 

And from the other thread, just to keep everything tidy:

 

10 hours ago, freeform said:

 

The strength of it is that it’s a simple model. It’s like a powerful solvent, like taking turpentine to an intricate oil painting - however intricate the forms, whatever the myriad colours, nothing can withstand the solvent properties of the logic - and you’re able to dissolve it all into one homogenous brown blob.

 

In traditional Rinzai Zen also it is said that the actual path only begins with awakening (kensho), much as you have said about Daoism.  They take the homogeneous blob conception of awakening to be an error (called "Zen stink") and have very specific ways of correcting that error.  For whatever it's worth. 

 

Edited August 14, 2021 by Creation

[forestofemptiness]

10 hours ago, MIchael80 said:

to beyond absolute awareness.

 

This shows a misunderstanding of the meaning of "absolute awareness" in my mind. The sort of awareness talked about doesn't have form, boundaries, or limits. 

[dwai]

9 hours ago, freeform said:

It’s also worth noting that ones who have awakened do not escape this process - in fact, they open up an avenue for karmic tendencies to arise from the unconscious.

 

That’s simply not correct. Karmic tendencies don’t arise from the unconscious. Especially not after realization. What rises are the activated patterns that came with this current “birth” that haven’t fallen away upon the said awakening. Those will get worked on and dissolved. The description given is “like an arrow that has been fired has to expend its momentum before it falls to the ground…such is the physical form/associated patterns of someone who is awakened”.  

Quote

 

Often, if they stop their cultivation too soon, these tendencies get free reign. They get caught ‘awake at the wheel’ and end up causing untold suffering while happily residing in blissful awareness.

See above. Once awakened, the only difference between one who has done adequate preparatory cleansing and one who hasn’t is, the latter cannot enjoy the true joy of said awakening. Upon dropping the physical body, neither will return. 

Quote

Hence the all too familiar fallen guru archetype

Nope. That is usually reserved for the energy/yogic/alchemy path types who can’t handle the energies they’ve unleashed in their system without fulfilling adequate work on their minds towards realization. 

Edited August 14, 2021 by dwai

[MIchael80]

11 hours ago, forestofemptiness said:

 

This shows a misunderstanding of the meaning of "absolute awareness" in my mind. The sort of awareness talked about doesn't have form, boundaries, or limits. 

Hi! 

 

No not at all. That is why it is so seldom talked about...and that is why i posted a link to the stages....from the 4th state to absolute awareness to beyond. 

Because that is the perception...it has no limits etc....that is the reality of being awake..there can not be something beyond it. But it can .

 

Just like someone in an Ego state cannot imagine the absolute awareness (and will deny that if he is not into spirituality) so is it not possible for someone awake in absolute awareness to imagine something beyond.(and will also deny further possibilty).

 

Only humility will do ....that no matter how limitless absolute awareness is ...maybe there is "something " more.

And that is experienced as loosing absolut awareness...and it is often a shock in the beginning but then slowly a new understanding dawns.

Edited August 15, 2021 by MIchael80

[freeform]

11 hours ago, dwai said:

That’s simply not correct. Karmic tendencies don’t arise from the unconscious.

We have different definitions of unconscious. For me it’s where ones consciousness cannot reach.
 

Specifically these are the karmic seeds hidden within the Hun - your soul.
 

The Hun has three aspects - individual soul, family line soul and collective soul. This is where the deeper karmic seeds reside and this is how they continue through the many lifetimes.

 

11 hours ago, dwai said:

What rises are the activated patterns that came with this current “birth” that haven’t fallen away upon the said awakening.

Not how it’s been explained to me. I certainly don’t have the insight to directly perceive this process in action myself - but my teacher does.
 

At the ‘mysterious gateway’, latent karma is awoken. 
 

What happens after the awakening (after walking through the mysterious gate) is crucial.

 

This is why it’s considered the beginning of spiritual practice in Daoism.

 

Either you illuminate what has been laying latent and unconscious (making it ‘conscious’), allowing it to drop away…
 

Or if you become mesmerised  by the ‘light’ of awakening and consider this the end of spiritual practice, you can easily start to give expression to the karmic seeds allowing them to flower into action. Usually in ways that corrupt in a very ‘hidden’ way. At least hidden to the awakened one.

 

11 hours ago, dwai said:

Upon dropping the physical body, neither will return. 

Interestingly, ‘not returning’, in several Daoist traditions is said to only happen to the highest level immortals. Even the most divine beings like Jesus are on a course to return… even if it’s tens of thousands of ‘earth years’ away.

 

Awakening at least in the northern Daoist traditions creates the possibility for one to ‘die well’ and not be ensnared by the web of the most sticky of ones karma upon transition - and therefore gives one a good chance at having a very fortunate incarnation the next time round.

 

Which tradition is right? I guess we get to find out at some point

 

11 hours ago, dwai said:

Nope. That is usually reserved for the energy/yogic/alchemy path types who can’t handle the energies they’ve unleashed in their system without fulfilling adequate work on their minds towards realization. 

Not many disgraced alchemists in the public eye - have you heard of any? I’ve certainly met a few dodgy types.

 

There are plenty of awakened Moojis, Rajneeshes, Chongyams, Ram Rahims and thousands of others…

[Apech]

Worth a listen if you have time:

 

 

[forestofemptiness]

6 hours ago, MIchael80 said:

And that is experienced as loosing absolut awareness

 

"Experience" is another way to say awareness. If there is experience, if there is knowing, if there is anything at all (even a blank void, or nothingness, etc.) this is all arising in awareness. Usually when people talk about going "beyond" awareness, they mean some sort of reified state of consciousness. Even in the link you provided, the person talks about a "perspective" beyond consciousness. The word "perspective" implies awareness, so this is just playing word games. Usually people confuse a "sense" of awareness or a "state" of consciousness with awareness (even here, the so-called "Supreme Reality" is a "sense of Being Consciousness or Self"). If it has a sense, a feeling, a flavor or anything graspable at all, no matter how subtle, it is an arising.