gj551

MCO doesnt work

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hi

 

(maybe this is a newbie question but it keeps bugging me for some time now)

 

so i sat there for like 8 hours turning the microcomic orbit (the "water-wheel" as hu xuezhi puts it) and didnt get any results :/  i did this 3 times in the last few weeks but sadly it did not get me anywhere.. i mean, turning the MCO ("circulating the light") has to bring at least SOME result (can also be bad results) but i felt nothing. now im somewhat disappointed

 

i stuck to charles luk's version of the MCO, that is, i used the solar plexus point in the front of the body (and ming men point in the back) for bathing and soaking... i wasnt expecting something great to happen. the book says doing the mco will make the genital shrink back into the body but there wasnt the slightest feeling of something like this (like maybe decreased carnal desire)

 

the aforementioned 'hu xuezhi' can be read here:  http://www.taoiststudy.com/taoist_alchemy/whole-process-taoist-internal-alchemy

 

on page 124 of 'taoist yoga' theres a picture showing the location of the cardinal points of the microcosmic orbit c. luk is refering to:

imageproxy.php?img=&key=373c63a6ac94c4d3getrhge99j3o.jpg

luk speaks of "moving the energy" along the A-D-G-J and back to A points... that would be: start at A (the perineum, also called hui-yin oder 'hai-di' point) by inhaling air, move it up to D for bathing and then up to G, and then start exhalation and move it down to J (solar plexus) for soaking and then back to A... im trying to stick to his instruction as close as possible to avoid any spurious practice :)

 

what results (of any kind) do you get when turning the mco?

 

(edit: can you see the image? i do get an error notification)

Edited by gj551
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49 minutes ago, gj551 said:

hi

 

(maybe this is a newbie question but it keeps bugging me for some time now)

 

so i sat there for like 8 hours turning the microcomic orbit (the "water-wheel" as hu xuezhi puts it) and didnt get any results :/  i did this 3 times in the last few weeks but sadly it did not get me anywhere.. i mean, turning the MCO ("circulating the light") has to bring at least SOME result (can also be bad results) but i felt nothing. now im somewhat disappointed

 

i stuck to charles luk's version of the MCO, that is, i used the solar plexus point in the front of the body (and ming men point in the back) for bathing and soaking... i wasnt expecting something great to happen. the book says doing the mco will make the genital shrink back into the body but there wasnt the slightest feeling of something like this (like maybe decreased carnal desire)

 

the aforementioned 'hu xuezhi' can be read here:  http://www.taoiststudy.com/taoist_alchemy/whole-process-taoist-internal-alchemy

 

on page 124 of 'taoist yoga' theres a picture showing the location of the cardinal points of the microcosmic orbit c. luk is refering to:

imageproxy.php?img=&key=373c63a6ac94c4d3getrhge99j3o.jpg

luk speaks of "moving the energy" along the A-D-G-J and back to A points... that would be: start at A (the perineum, also called hui-yin oder 'hai-di' point) by inhaling air, move it up to D for bathing and then up to G, and then start exhalation and move it down to J (solar plexus) for soaking and then back to A... im trying to stick to his instruction as close as possible to avoid any spurious practice :)

 

what results (of any kind) do you get when turning the mco?

 

(edit: can you see the image? i do get an error notification)

 

 

Did you naturally open the mco? If not it's probably best to not engage in any mco practices.

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This is not something cultivated with just a few 8 hour sessions.

 

It is not something that is not related to the whole - the heart of the energy systems you have developed - the gross physical, gross subtle and subtle bodies.

 

If you know basically nothing about these channels other than direct experience and observation they will unfold in general in practice as follows:

 

Energies will appear to move up the front generally though not necessarily appear as moving down the back as clearly for quite some time to most of those who see/feel such things.

 

In most people the front central area channels are the only ones fairly well defined.

 

The inner side channels are generally very faint. Most of the inner head channels are not formed to a visible level.

Energy centers are in general not particularly pronounce wthin the body with the exception of the major and minor regular centers of a particular person. (Most people functioned more or less in only one primary center and one supporting alternate center - chakra).

 

The back channels consist of at least five channels - main channels and supporting side channels.

Some front "channels" are more channels that are reflections of connections from the back channels forward and some are flows from circular motions of energy centers in the flower of their structures.

 

The side channels have difficulty growing to a great extent without the supporting leg channels - these are mid placed side channels approximately in line with the nipples at their widest mid chest locations.

 

The channels associated with the MCO are practically dormant if compared to a full opening and then the latter fusing of many of the channels into one. At the time that the MCO opens full it will become very large to approximately an 8-12" oval of massive energy all along its path and fully comparable to a full Kundalini  onslaught but maintained for days or weeks and then subsiding to a degree.. This may be followed by a vast increase in the energy intensity while at the same time the size of the channel actually becomes infinitesimal smaller and intensely compressed by comparison - some 3/4 of an inch in diameter.

 

The main center pole - extending from the  perineum to the top of the head and slightly back of center will generally require considerable inner practice to become noticeable and may become relatively prominent wth martial artists given attention to the hara/abdomen/lower dan tien area. It will not become extraordinary until considerable changes have taken place well above the head and well below the waist and then also the fusing of various inner head and center of head and throat and on down takes place.

 

Most that is known of the MCO is relatively mundane and this is far more true of the inner pole described above - assumption with regard to these descriptions will be necessarily extremely far from reality - they are inconceivable to mind and far beyond any psychedelic experiences and they are completely sustained (as in permanent). The MCO will dissapear in fusion with all major channels  - the pole will become prominent on a much higher level and will remain as a clearly felt channel - but more of central embodiment - the axis of embodiment.

 

For most this all takes years of practice - for some of us slower folks it takes endless decades - but all along it is unfolding.

The key has never been short intensives here and there - it is sustained practice and living the life of practice - the basic practices are the big things - the secret stuff will come from the big basics in practice. (there is no secret stuff - just stuff that cannot be heard until it is known)

 

carry salt

measure your head frequently

persevere

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Spotless
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@gj551

 

I can not add anything to what spotless has said.  His instruction is always good.  But,  your greatest weakness, as I see it, is a lack of patience.  Until you dramatically increase that--you are in the wrong business here.  There are good meditations, mantras and breathing techniques that will definitely help you with that.  I would ordinarily suggest some ideas but, you need to go out and do your homework. (Most of which can be found by exploring this site.) The first step towards great patience.

Edited by moment
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A lot of people think that they can just start doing the MCO and that is enough there is a warning about this at the end of Chapter Four:

 

Quote

Answer According to your statement this is purposeless turning of empty water-wheels which is unprofitable.

. . .

 

At present you just sit motionless, close your eyes and then make the ascents and descents 360 times; this is purposeless turning of empty water-wheels and is not the proper method of preparing the golden elixir. It is because when you began to meditate your mind was disturbed by thoughts that you were taught to make 360 turns to achieve mental stillness only. Your body is now so weak that if you fail to restore the generative force you will not be able to improve your health. (Taoist Yoga, p. 40, Emphasis mine, ZYD)

 

You need to go back to Chapter One:

 

Quote

 

My masters Liao Jan and Liao K'ung once said: 'When beginning to cultivate (essential) nature and (eternal) life, it is necessary first to develop nature.' Before sitting in meditation, it is important to put an end to all rising thoughts and to loosen garments and belt to relax the body and avoid interfering with the free circulation of blood. After sitting the body should be (senseless) like a log and the heart (mind) unstirred like cold ashes. The eyes should look down and fix on the tip of the nose; they should not be shut completely to avoid dullness and confusion; neither should they be wide open to prevent spirit from wandering outside. They should be fixed on the tip of the nose with one's attention concentrated on the spot between them; and in time the light of vitality will manifest. This is the best way to get rid of all thoughts at the start when preparing the elixir of immortality.


When the heart (mind) is settled, one should restrain the faculty of seeing, check that of hearing, touch the palate with the tip of the tongue and regulate the breathing through the nostrils. If breathing is not regulated one will be troubled by gasping or laboured breaths. When breathing is well controlled, one will forget all about the body and heart (mind). Thus stripped of feelings and passions one will look like a stupid man. (Taoist Yoga, p. 1, Emphasis mine, ZYD)

 

 

Sometimes an "outer method" of the MCO involving visualization is taught to still the mind, such visualization is not doing the MCO, the MCO cannot by "done" by such methods, it is something that arises naturally when one has reached a deep enough level of meditation and become aware of aspects of oneself of which one is ordinarily unconscious.  Do whatever you have to do to sit and forget, if imagining empty water wheels helps, do that, but they are not the MCO.

 

I hope this is helpful.

 

ZYD

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There seems to always be disagreement on what is and is not MCO. Some say you go up the back and down the front (taoist) or up the front and down the back (yoga).  There are disagreements on the subtleties of the central channel-- on and on.  I have always preferred

doing it while in standing zhan zhuang (tree hugger) and going up the back.  I have always liked feelings over visualization.  But, all of the old traditional ways work well (Buddhist, Hindu, Taoist).

It is important though that you learn through one system at first. If you do not lay the proper foundation and have a mentor to touch base with, the MCO, done incorrectly, can make you very sick.  I like standing Zhan Zhuang with meditation on the Dantian until a very relaxed meditative state occurs.  Then I find MCO very easy and natural.  I have always been able to tell when my MCO is correct through my breathing.  The breath will eventually become very fine while using the nose only.  This fineness of breath is hard to describe but while you are experiencing it you will know it. It is so much lighter than regular breath yet you are never out of breath while being able to do one circuit per a single breath.  I hope this is of some help.  There is always much that can be said on this subject.  It really is best to have a partner in the same town/city that has years of dedicated practice in this very special art.

Edited by moment
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In the great opening of the MCO the energies run up the back and down the front. It is not subtle and does not require any effort or visualization - at least with respect to regular Qi Gong practice.

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The advice to meditate with the eyes slightly open and the attention on the tip of ones nose is not to be taken as the best way or even an advised way - it is a way - and in many cases not the best advice and it is quite vague as proposed above. (I do not mean this in any way as an affront to the practice).

 

Most meditation is too far forward in the head resulting in both poor meditation and strain.

 

From the center of the head one will Be in meditation more easily. For many the eyes opened slightly is a good thing as it helps them not to wander - but for many the opposite is true - they may not space out but the monkey mind does not disappear.

 

Meditation is Being In Self - once one is past the figeting and strain one moves to Self - the more "perfect pictures" there are to the "perfect way" to meditate the longer it takes to do away with the nit picking and find the growing stillness in light.

 

Far to many are forward in the head and concentrating on the brow chakra - and in some cases the forehead chakra - in either case

- these are localized meditations (sitting practices) - eventually one will meditate from the center of the head (or simply Be in meditation - with self - any "where" any "time")

 

Also - with regard to the MCO - it is far more difficult to open in a sitting position on the floor - the leg channels simply do not have the same amount of energies moving in them while sitting. In a chair or standing is far more accomodating to this end.

 

This then effects quite a number of other channels particularly the major side channels which are rarely given more than a passive glance - (as few have developed them and cannot recognize the utility of them). Regular practice opens them with no effort - but the leg channels must open considerably for the side channels to grow and this also requires the feet to open up. (it helps to massage the feet prior to practice - if you do not and your feet start to really really hurt during practice - at least you will know your feet are trying to open. Prior massage will help to remove the mounting pain problem - in most cases it will entirely comfort the process).

 

For some the MCO will be a subtle movement - I was not taught anything about the MCO other than that it went up the Ren and down the Du - I visually traced it once (one time). I did not try to develop it or move it - the practice does that - I was not taught that it was important - and it was never particularly apparent until an absolutely huge opening of it quite unexpected and incredible,  

 

Prior to its opening - where it was clearly open - I had a sustained feeling of floating everywhere for a long time prior to the big opening - as though my feet were not on the ground or that I was walking on energy cushions - this persists, (This is not to be associated with a spacey feeling - quite the opposite - very grounded and in embodiment)  My master was aware of my progress and this was in fact part of the awakening of the MCO. But he speaks no English and I have read nothing about Qi Gong - everything has been personal experience and then finding out what it means. Its has been quite a journey in Qi Gong - I teach it but many of my students know more than me regarding conceptual understanding and terms - in many cases they are walls they have to overcome.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Spotless
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Well the reason you felt nothing is probably because nothing is being turned

 

Cultivate your qi first before attempting mco.

 

No matter how hard you beat an empty river no water will flow through there.

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2 hours ago, Spotless said:

In the great opening of the MCO the energies run up the back and down the front. It is not subtle and does not require any effort or visualization - at least with respect to regular Qi Gong practice.

What you say about the great opening is true but, for most, it is way down the road.

Edited by moment
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I don't want to blunder into other people's system - as this is not my main thing - but my understanding is that the MCO proper occurs spontaneously once the 'pill' or 'medicine' has been generated in the LDT.  Up till then the practice is part of laying the foundations - such as guarding the three treasures, clearing blockages, passing the difficult gates and so on.  So if you think you are 'doing' the MCO then you are not - and any kind of forced attempt to make it happen may well be harmful.

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10 hours ago, Apech said:

I don't want to blunder into other people's system - as this is not my main thing - but my understanding is that the MCO proper occurs spontaneously once the 'pill' or 'medicine' has been generated in the LDT.  Up till then the practice is part of laying the foundations - such as guarding the three treasures, clearing blockages, passing the difficult gates and so on.  So if you think you are 'doing' the MCO then you are not - and any kind of forced attempt to make it happen may well be harmful.

The mco can be traveled with just basic knowledge (though I do not advise that) and relaxed concentration.  Benefits may appear as time goes on (such as clearing some blockages).  My personal feeling is that one should start in the LDT  but, there are disciplines that do not.  I agree with you, the MCO can cause harm if a proper foundation is not laid.

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When it comes to meditating on emptiness, one needs to attain a reversal of attention inward (turning the light around).  Where the eyes do not see, the ears do not hear and the breathing becomes very fine.  You cannot be in a hurry!  Eventually, your true nature will start to show itself.

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On 11/3/2019 at 9:57 AM, gj551 said:

i sat there for like 8 hours turning the microcomic orbit

 

Doing the MCO with your mind is one of the worst kind of fundamentalist misapplication of the principles that can be found in chi kung.  It has caused permanent and serious damage to thousands of people, and many come to this forum to tell us about it.  It is ridiculous, and it represents levels upon levels of lies and misunderstandings added on top of other lies and misunderstandings.  The more you do it, and the 'better' you get at it, the more likely it is to hurt you, so you are lucky to have stopped.  it is much better to do some real chi kung, moving chi kung, which gets the MCO going in a much more powerful and totally safe way, WITHOUT EVER THINKING ABOUT IT!.

 

In fact, the MCO isn't even important!  It is only something sold by fools to make money off of other fools.

Edited by Starjumper
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5 hours ago, Starjumper said:

 

Doing the MCO with your mind is one of the worst kind of fundamentalist misapplication of the principles that can be found in chi kung.  It has caused permanent and serious damage to thousands of people, and many come to this forum to tell us about it.  It is ridiculous, and it represents levels upon levels of lies and misunderstandings added on top of other lies and misunderstandings.  The more you do it, and the 'better' you get at it, the more likely it is to hurt you, so you are lucky to have stopped.  it is much better to do some real chi kung, moving chi kung, which gets the MCO going in a much more powerful and totally safe way, WITHOUT EVER THINKING ABOUT IT!.

 

In fact, the MCO isn't even important!  It is only something sold by fools to make money off of other fools.

I disagree that the MCO is not important when it is applied in certain situations.  An example is: that when used for only 5 or 6 minutes after a Kriya session it will cut through the deepest depressions like a hot knife through butter. There are other applications in which when used with other techniques it is very powerful.  I do agree with you, that the commercialized stuff is crap, and it is usually done too often and too long. I also agree with you that moving Chi-Kung is better in most applications. But, I firmly believe in having a tool box full of tools (if one understands their applications) I do agree with you also, that the MCO can screw you up big-time, especially in the hands of overeager newbies.  I will also note here that you said MCO with your mind. I appreciate what you are saying there. In 90+% of the time the natural flow of mco is much better-- especially when it is being caressed by moving arts like Tai Chi.  To a certain degree we will always disagree on some of these points but, I always respect your (almost always vigorous) opinion.

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To offer a counter point, I know of lineages that are extremely accomplished that their main meditation/engine is the Microcosmic orbit.

 

They are all universally within a lineage and guided by the masters, which I think is important.

 

Others have given great advice, and to offer my own, I would encourage finding a master/lineage, and consistent practice over time verse a large amount of practice in a short period of time.

 

Your energy system needs time to adjust and move through the season while doing so. Consistent practice over time, ideally at the same time of day will accomplish far far more than a large amount of practice in a short period of time.

 

Good luck.

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On 11/4/2019 at 3:35 AM, Spotless said:

In the great opening of the MCO the energies run up the back and down the front. It is not subtle (emphasis mine --TM) and does not require any effort or visualization - at least with respect to regular Qi Gong practice.

 

This is consistent with my experience.  Years ago, when I started practicing qigong and meditation, I had to cut my hair extremely short because throughout the day I felt as though the movement steadily "crawling" up my back channels was entangling in my hair.  I could barely resist the temptation to shave my head. :D  The feeling went away with change of practice, and was never again encouraged until in taiji neigong I was taught to direct and use it. 

 

I think the expression "empty revolutions of the waterwheel" refers to doing it "because it's in the book" or "because I was told it is a sign of an advanced level of practice" or for whatever impractical reason of that nature.  If you look at the Neijing Tu, you'll notice that everybody in it is busy with a particular task along the way.  The Water of Kan flowing in the opposite direction (upward) irrigates the fields, pulls along the Weaving Maiden's spun yarn (this is what may have felt as though it was "engangling" in my hair! ;) ) and so on.  It is meaningful -- it's there to do something useful.  You may or may not direct it -- what you need to be in charge of though is the "what for," the clear calm intent.  "Clear" is not immediately clear till later in a typical case, and "calm" can't be a derivative of wishful thinking.  It's not circumstantial and not intellectual, you can't "decide" to be clear and calm.  It's something that might arise with practice if you're lucky.  

 

Good luck.  

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I dont know how you do it, I feel very strong results with MCO after 8-10 circles which takes about 15 seconds.

 

15 seconds and mind is blown away by qi force

 

mco and tan tien meditation are 2 things that are simple and proven to work and give amazing results

 

Edited by GSmaster
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2 hours ago, GSmaster said:

I dont know how you do it, I feel very strong results with MCO after 8-10 circles which takes about 15 seconds.

 

15 seconds and mind is blown away by qi force

 

mco and tan tien meditation are 2 things that are simple and proven to work and give amazing results

 


I would add from our school that focusing on the LDT and MCO in the beginning is not recommended for beginners. 
 

In our Bagua, we only do LDT focus meditation after Zhan Zhuang for a few minutes.

 

In Shuigong, we do the MCO only after having an outlet for flow of qi through our primary forms.

 

Most of the time we find that doing our martial forms and Zhan Zhuang, the latter intrinsically can active the MCO and the former is necessary to have a place for the qi to understand its purpose and direction on top of its flow in the body.

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5 hours ago, Earl Grey said:

In our Bagua, we only do LDT focus meditation after Zhan Zhuang for a few minutes.

 

In Shuigong, we do the MCO only after having an outlet for flow of qi through our primary forms.

 

I totally cannot imagine doing MCO for 8 hours straight. Its like working out in gym for 8 hours straight.

You stop practice when you are full / overloaded, if you dont you can cause serious / lethal brain / internal organ damage to oneself.

 

Brain matter could simply get crushed under high pressure.

 

Also you dont do MCO or cultivation if you are sick and the body is weakened, it may not be able to handle additional pressure.

Edited by GSmaster
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5 hours ago, Earl Grey said:

that focusing on the LDT and MCO in the beginning is not recommended for beginners. 

 

Yeah, although I would say its just the basics of cultivation, it is not for beginners at all.

 

People need to work with other things first, like meditation, free mind from all thoughts and disturbances, work with energy sensitivity practice (easiest to be done in pairs or groups).

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26 minutes ago, GSmaster said:

 

I totally cannot imagine doing MCO for 8 hours straight. Its like working out in gym for 8 hours straight.

You stop practice when you are full / overloaded, if you dont you can cause serious / lethal brain / internal organ damage to oneself.

 

Brain matter could simply get crushed under high pressure.

 

Also you dont do MCO or cultivation if you are sick and the body is weakened, it may not be able to handle additional pressure.


We don’t do MCO for eight hours as it’s only 10-15 minutes for daytime practice as an optional but supplemental practice to strengthen Shuigong.

 

You are quite correct in everything mentioned here though.

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22 minutes ago, GSmaster said:

 

Yeah, although I would say its just the basics of cultivation, it is not for beginners at all.

 

People need to work with other things first, like meditation, free mind from all thoughts and disturbances, work with energy sensitivity practice (easiest to be done in pairs or groups).


Correct, but sadly many people either think it’s something they should do immediately thanks to both Mantak Chia and others like Michael Winn, or they have a watered-down version that is unhealthy for you and quite dangerous.

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Explicitly doing MCO is not a good idea. Better to do it with a moving form. 
 

explicitly doing MCO is called the “direct method” and it has the risk of overloading and even skipping blockages. 
 

Doing via a moving form is called “indirect method” and it is gentler and more effective. 
 

I know people don’t like the simple answers. Our complicated minds like complicated things to do - visualize 9 pearls, geometric patterns, move the pearl here, there and everywhere. However in most cases this like giving a bigger and juicier banana to a monkey. 
 

The more you feed the monkey bigger better stuff, the more it craves, more epic are its tantrums.

 

Simple is best. Doesn’t get better than wuji or a simple form like upward and downward in taijiquan. 
 

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Ya, plus anyone with an ounce of brains will realize the central channel is more important than some stupid orbit.  Central channel is focussed on in real nei kung, but Chinese are masters of obfuscation and hiding things of power, not to mention the gringo follow onners.

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