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" A further division of AMH into "early" or "robust" vs. "post-glacial" or "gracile" subtypes has since been used for convenience. The emergence of "gracile AMH" is taken to reflect a process towards a smaller and more fine-boned skeleton beginning around 50,000‚Äď30,000 years ago.[58] "

Yeah thats what I mean.

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Indeed .

 

Except I am an Aussie.  aad 'down here' some of the first people where GRACILE  and after them came the Robust types   * .

 

And both types are evident in today's indigenous populations . . . . as are the other types ; aside from the interesting and unexplained ''black' skin or 'brown' skin superficial types (that issue , no one seems to want to touch with a 10 foot pole ! ),  eg. a friend is a fairly pure blood Bungalung man , he appears of the type that is a mix  of their original homeland type (Arnhem Land ) and an east coast rainforest 'pygmy' type . One of their main characters is a fantastic fit looking physic , lean muscles, mildly 'ripped' . 

 

Like the 2 in the middle ;

 

Pygmies-1.jpg My friend is taller of course; these guys can run,  for a looooooong time ,  and they tough  -  I was building with my mate and a beam fell from the roof on to his shoulder. he said he was okay, went quiet, later went to hospital , broken bone,  was quiet for a day or two and then back at work. I have seen them fucstion with injuries that would floor most of us. he gets bit by a  snake, 'goes quiet' for a few days and then gets better and declares  " Now I am immune to that one. " 

 

He (and the rest of the groups in this east coast rainforest area ) are brown coloured.  We where in town once and a very black / indigo coloured  chap was walking the other way, my friend lowered his head and didnt look at him, after he passed he said  " Desert Man , those guys make us look like white fellas . " 

 

Of course , all this is nowadys 'verbotten' theory ,  but a lot of it was what I was taught in Anthropology at Sydney Uni  40 years ago .

 

YET, as time goes on, and new findings are made  these 'old school' theories (and some of mine)  dont seem to want to go away    ;

 

*

http://www.convictcreations.com/aborigines/prehistory.htm

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10 hours ago, Nungali said:

Indeed .

 

Except I am an Aussie.  aad 'down here' some of the first people where GRACILE  and after them came the Robust types   * .

 

Not exactly sure what you mean here. Which is which then?

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9 hours ago, Papayapple said:

Not exactly sure what you mean here. Which is which then?

 

?I dont know what you mean now .  Which is which ?

 

Gracile are gracile and robust are robust Did you  read the link I posted.

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I did and it's fascinating. It suggests many conclusions. So your point is, graciles were there way earlier then it is assumed?

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The fossil evidence shows some gracile remains pre date  some robust remains .

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back to disappearing and appearing  islands  ;

 

 

 

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Although the truth of ancient Earth civilizations is, unfortunately largely speculative, there are some facts that I find particularly intriguing:  In order to develop "astronomy", it was necessary to first develop writing, mathematics, and agriculture, and then spend over sixty thousand years occupying the same geographic space to record the raw data.  No civilization in the past five thousand years has come close to this achievement, obviously - no civilization in recorded history has lasted so long.  We could, I suppose, grant those ancient prehistoric humans the benefit of supercomputers, and shorten the data collection time to thirty thousand years, allowing them to extrapolate the precession of equinoxes that they had not literally observed, but the fact of their output is unmistakable:  an advanced human civilization in existence at the very least, twenty thousand years before the end of the last ice age.

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37 minutes ago, ShenLung said:

Although the truth of ancient Earth civilizations is, unfortunately largely speculative, there are some facts that I find particularly intriguing:  In order to develop "astronomy", it was necessary to first develop writing, mathematics, and agriculture, and then spend over sixty thousand years occupying the same geographic space to record the raw data.  No civilization in the past five thousand years has come close to this achievement, obviously - no civilization in recorded history has lasted so long.  We could, I suppose, grant those ancient prehistoric humans the benefit of supercomputers, and shorten the data collection time to thirty thousand years, allowing them to extrapolate the precession of equinoxes that they had not literally observed, but the fact of their output is unmistakable:  an advanced human civilization in existence at the very least, twenty thousand years before the end of the last ice age.

 

 

Why 60,000 years?

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On 25.2.2019 at 4:28 AM, Nungali said:

 

 

Ha!  Tell that to the  50,000 tons of mass earth looses everyday .

 

yeah, I know, you  are gonna say we take in matter to , we do ; 40,000 tons a day .

 

....    :o

 

Maybe that;s where Atlantis went  !

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I have read about a  similar process ... but not that ^  . 

 

It does seem popular in Switzerland though  :) 

 

 !

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ahem ...  < a bit more serious now >

 

What process is that ? If you mean isostatic uplift, that is a lot more gradual than what sunk Atlantis .

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tectonic_uplift#Isostatic_uplift

 

Cool .  

 

The thing is that, although scale is different, the basic idea is there in orthodox geology already. So even though Flambas's idea would still be considered fringe science, it gained credibility this way, IMO. Some of today's fringe science may well be what will be written in the official textbooks tomorrow.

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On 28.2.2019 at 2:45 AM, Nungali said:

Indeed .

 

Except I am an Aussie.  aad 'down here' some of the first people where GRACILE  and after them came the Robust types   * .

 

And both types are evident in today's indigenous populations . . . . as are the other types ; aside from the interesting and unexplained ''black' skin or 'brown' skin superficial types (that issue , no one seems to want to touch with a 10 foot pole ! ),  eg. a friend is a fairly pure blood Bungalung man , he appears of the type that is a mix  of their original homeland type (Arnhem Land ) and an east coast rainforest 'pygmy' type . One of their main characters is a fantastic fit looking physic , lean muscles, mildly 'ripped' . 

 

Like the 2 in the middle ;

 

Pygmies-1.jpg My friend is taller of course; these guys can run,  for a looooooong time ,  and they tough  -  I was building with my mate and a beam fell from the roof on to his shoulder. he said he was okay, went quiet, later went to hospital , broken bone,  was quiet for a day or two and then back at work. I have seen them fucstion with injuries that would floor most of us. he gets bit by a  snake, 'goes quiet' for a few days and then gets better and declares  " Now I am immune to that one. " 

 

He (and the rest of the groups in this east coast rainforest area ) are brown coloured.  We where in town once and a very black / indigo coloured  chap was walking the other way, my friend lowered his head and didnt look at him, after he passed he said  " Desert Man , those guys make us look like white fellas . " 

 

Of course , all this is nowadys 'verbotten' theory ,  but a lot of it was what I was taught in Anthropology at Sydney Uni  40 years ago .

 

YET, as time goes on, and new findings are made  these 'old school' theories (and some of mine)  dont seem to want to go away    ;

 

*

http://www.convictcreations.com/aborigines/prehistory.htm

 

The 'occult' view of history differs from the conventional one insofar culture isn't seen so much as the result of a gradual development but as something bestowed from 'above' - and'that 'above' frequently takes the form of a preceding civilization passing on the torch to a more 'primtive' people via a group of emigrants, typically under the leadership of a charismatic emissary.

 

In regards to Atlantis, it is interesting to note that in prehistoric southwest Europe, Gravettian culture (known for its Venus figurines) was replaced quite abruptly by the Magdalenian (ca. 17.000-9.000 BC) whose sophisticated cave art can be found in an area from the Atlantic coast all the way to the Rhone - in fact approximating the territory controlled by the Atlanteans according to Plato, both in terms of its location and its duration. Moreover, this seems in line with Cayce who said that there were emigrants from Atlantis settling in the Pyrenees long before its final destruction.

 

Here are some examples for Magdalene art from a cave in Lascaux, France:

 

5c7a8d24c7665_LascauxPainting(1).jpg.ce7c6f7bcc759d3aee5e03caf55302a9.jpg

 

5c7a8d3a4489c_LascauxPainting(2).jpg.7ba2efad531fdefbb34a49a432dcb096.jpg

 

That kind of wall painting is often found deep inside the caves, in places that are are dark and hard to access. Most likely, those places served spiritual purposes, such as for initiation rites. Remarkably, the paintings are very much alike in the the whole vast area they are seen in, with very little regional variation. Even more remarkably, once the style changed, it did so everywhere at once! Possibly hinting at a cultural centre that this art was emanating from.

 

The predominantly featured animal was the horse, and this should make Atlantologists prick up their ears, as this was an animal attributed to Poseidon. Plato gave a detailed description of the race courses used for horse training in the Atlantean capital. Some of the cave paintings even show horses wearing harnesses, indicating that these animals were being tamed much earlier than the textbooks would have us believe.

 

Magdalene cave art reached its climax as far as sophistication and realism towards the end of the 11th millenium BC whereafter it started to decline both in quality and quantity. Later paintings tend to be found closer to the cave entrances and on stone plaques respectively, and they are cruder and more schematic.

 

It has also been noted that at some of the earlier Magdalene sites, hardly anything that would qualify as a weapon is found - rather untypical for an alleged community of hunters! Save for 'weapons' that seem to have served ritualistic purposes, such as carved antlers with rounded off tips (!) that conceivably would make a nice props symbolizing Poseidon's trident. However, simultaneous with the decline of Magdalene art, we find an increase in arrow points spread out all over the area!

 

The message seems clear: There was a loss of interest in art and spirituality and an increased focus on warfare taking place - until, sometime in the 9th millenium BC, Magdalene culture had vanished completely.

 

This again seems in keeping with Plato, who tells us that the early Atlantean kings were divinely inspired and , for many generations, characterized by a certain "'greatness of mind" (Critias 120). Theirs must hence have been a creative and benign governance before the race weakened, grew ambitious, and went to war. While outwardly successful, they had become arrogant and superficial. Therefore, Zeus decided to punish them... Unfortunately, the Critias breaks off right there.

 

Most of the information presented here is from Mary Settegast's Plato Prehistorian - a scholarly book highly recommended to anybody with a serious interest in Atlantology.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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On 27.2.2019 at 9:58 PM, Papayapple said:

Remember folks- the intelligent human species as we know it appears no sooner than 50-70k years ago. Which... actually may have coincided with the last big peak at the graph you posted. But whether or not there was a civilization before 10,000BC, it must have been in it's bronze age at best. Otherwise they'd leave more traces of themselves. IMO

 

Maybe so.

 

However, it is hard to conceive how the ancient Egyptians accomplished some of the stone processing that they were evidently capable of without having inherited the means therefor from a civilzation as advanced as our own, if not more so.

 

https://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/ciencia/ciencia_hitech07.htm

 

However, I am open to the idea that Atlantean science and technology were advanced in a different direction than the one taken by ourselves overall. Along the lines of what Arthur C. Clarke shared, namely that the technology of a sufficiently advanced civilization will be indistinguishable from magic.

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Posted (edited)
On 3/2/2019 at 8:08 AM, Michael Sternbach said:

However, I am open to the idea that Atlantean science and technology were advanced in a different direction than the one taken by ourselves overall. Along the lines of what Arthur C. Clarke shared, namely that the technology of a sufficiently advanced civilization will be indistinguishable from magic.

Thanks, there does not seem to be a lot of support for the study and understanding of certain sciences of the past,

OOPs :o I was speaking from personal experience and forgot to mention it: except by those who are labeled as fraudulent and called alchemists/magicians. :)

Edited by mrpasserby
I forgot to add that my comment was from personal experience

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13 hours ago, ShenLung said:

Although the truth of ancient Earth civilizations is, unfortunately largely speculative,

 

A truth that is speculative now  ? 

 

What a way to start a post !

 

 

13 hours ago, ShenLung said:

 

 

there are some facts

 

I gotta a feeling that these upcoming 'facts' are gonna be speculative as well .

 

13 hours ago, ShenLung said:

 

that I find particularly intriguing:  In order to develop "astronomy", it was necessary to first develop writing, mathematics, and agriculture,

 

Nope !

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Aboriginal_astronomy

 

13 hours ago, ShenLung said:

 

 

and then spend over sixty thousand years occupying the same geographic space to record the raw data.  No civilization in the past five thousand years has come close to this achievement, obviously - no civilization in recorded history has lasted so long

 

Moot point - as civilisation isnt needed to develop astronomy .

 

13 hours ago, ShenLung said:

We could, I suppose, grant those ancient prehistoric humans the benefit of supercomputers, and shorten the data collection time to thirty thousand years, allowing them to extrapolate the precession of equinoxes that they had not literally observed, but the fact of their output is unmistakable: an advanced human civilization in existence at the very least, twenty thousand years before the end of the last ice age.

 

I didnt get how what you wrote led to the conclusion of  "an advanced human civilization in existence at the very least, twenty thousand years before the end of the last ice age. " 

 

What 'fact' of what 'output' .   You post is very unclear .

 

I have to assume you are posing a question generally about knowledge of  equinoctial precession ?  Hrad to comprehend  exaclty what you are inferring without accurate details .

 

HOWEVER  .... look at the article I cited  this bit ;

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Aboriginal_astronomy#Pleiade

 

 

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13 hours ago, Apech said:

 

 

Why 60,000 years?

 

I have learnt NOT to expect answers from people that make posts like that   ' post and run'  .

 

If they do come back and  defend what they wrote ..... well,  let's wait and see first .

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11 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

The thing is that, although scale is different, the basic idea is there in orthodox geology already.

 

What basic idea ?  :huh:

 

That continents  sink without a trace on the sea floor ... all during the ages after the emergence of Homo Sapiens  ?

 

Even Zealandia has left evidence

 

m-8282-enz.jpg

 

11 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

 

So even though Flambas's idea would still be considered fringe science, it gained credibility this way, IMO. Some of today's fringe science may well be what will be written in the official textbooks tomorrow.

 

Aha! The 'future science'  ploy , eh ?

Then we should discuss that '  tomorrow '   ....  'when'  it happens   ;) 

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

The 'occult' view of history differs from the conventional one insofar culture isn't seen so much as the result of a gradual development but as something bestowed from 'above' - and'that 'above' frequently takes the form of a preceding civilization passing on the torch to a more 'primtive' people via a group of emigrants, typically under the leadership of a charismatic emissary

 

 

I note you never answered any questions I posed, due to your former set of statements, in the post of mine you quoted.

 

But, to continue with this new set of  statements.

 

As an anthropologist, I can't condone the mixing up of the terms 'culture' and civilisation' . I am sure you know the difference .

 

And I have to say, such outmoded beliefs are the result of western white imperialism .  I can link to many papers that explain this, if you are not familiar with the concept. A good introduction to the subject is in the preface to  'Ancient Egypt - from the First Framers to The Great Pyramid' by Toby Wilkenson. It is considered essential understanding nowadays in academia.

 

Remember , most of what passes for 'occultism' was generated by post Victorian  western biblical uninformed  pre-science ; case in point -  Lemuria ;    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemuria_(continent)#Scientific_origins

 

Some of the biggest advances in sorting out peoples culture, history and developments has come about by third world people and others who are not white westerners, gaining education and degrees and doing research not fuelled by such biases.

 

 

Quote

In regards to Atlantis, it is interesting to note that in prehistoric southwest Europe, Gravettian culture (known for its Venus figurines) was replaced quite abruptly by the Magdalenian (ca. 17.000-9.000 BC) whose sophisticated cave art can be found in an area from the Atlantic coast all the way to the Rhone - in fact approximating the territory controlled by the Atlanteans according to Plato, both in terms of its location and its duration. Moreover, this seems in line with Cayce who said that there were emigrants from Atlantis settling in the Pyrenees long before its final destruction.

 

It developed from Solutrian culture and was virtually a 'degradation' in its first appearance ;

 

" The widespread resumption of artistic production in the early Magdalenian Period was marked at first by a return to simple line drawing and a retreat from the Aurignacian achievements in modeling and polychromy. Generally, coarse black drawings with little concern for detail or finish characterized monumental cave art in this early phase. It may be distinguished as part of a later school by its continuation of Solutrean plastic tendencies and its correct draftsmanship in the treatment of feet and horns and of perspective in general. Later, however, as the new school consolidated itself, there was an increasing and striking naturalism in all the arts. The small arts, already at a high level in the Aurignacian era, reached a climax in the Magdalenian Period, with delicate, detailed engravings and carvings in the round; in engravings two or more animals were often represented together in a recognizable scene. The outstanding achievement of Magdalenian art, however, was the cave engraving and polychrome painting of its late phase. There was little interest in formal composition or relationships between figures, but the figures themselves, especially in painting, were remarkably beautiful, with lively realism, excellent rendering of volumes, subtle expressive poses, and sophisticated design."

 

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Magdalenian-culture

 

ie. the more advanced phase of it was an internal development .

 

Quote

 

Here are some examples for  art from a cave in Lascaux, France:

 

5c7a8d24c7665_LascauxPainting(1).jpg.ce7c6f7bcc759d3aee5e03caf55302a9.jpg

 

5c7a8d3a4489c_LascauxPainting(2).jpg.7ba2efad531fdefbb34a49a432dcb096.jpg

 

That kind of wall painting is often found deep inside the caves, in places that are are dark and hard to access. Most likely, those places served spiritual purposes, such as for initiation rites. Remarkably, the paintings are very much alike in the the whole vast area they are seen in, with very little regional variation. Even more remarkably, once the style changed, it did so everywhere at once! Possibly hinting at a cultural centre that this art was emanating from.

 

The predominantly featured animal was the horse, and this should make Atlantologists prick up their ears, as this was an animal attributed to Poseidon. Plato gave a detailed description of the race courses used for horse training in the Atlantean capital. Some of the cave paintings even show horses wearing harnesses, indicating that these animals were being tamed much earlier than the textbooks would have us believe.

 

Pics please . I looked and cant find one and I am not unfamilar with this art .  You  might remember some threads where I discussed it and recommended watching Werner Herzog's doco on it ;

 

 

Quote

 

Magdalene cave art reached its climax as far as sophistication and realism towards the end of the 11th millenium BC whereafter it started to decline both in quality and quantity. Later paintings tend to be found closer to the cave entrances and on stone plaques respectively, and they are cruder and more schematic.

 

It has also been noted that at some of the earlier Magdalene sites, hardly anything that would qualify as a weapon is found - rather untypical for an alleged community of hunters! Save for 'weapons' that seem to have served ritualistic purposes, such as carved antlers with rounded off tips (!) that conceivably would make a nice props symbolizing Poseidon's trident. However, simultaneous with the decline of Magdalene art, we find an increase in arrow points spread out all over the area!

 

The message seems clear: There was a loss of interest in art and spirituality and an increased focus on warfare taking place - until, sometime in the 9th millenium BC, Magdalene culture had vanished completely.

 

Similar dynamics here with Gwion Gwion art  ;

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bradshaw_rock_paintings

 

 

Quote

 

This again seems in keeping with Plato, who tells us that the early Atlantean kings were divinely inspired and , for many generations, characterized by a certain "'greatness of mind" (Critias 120). Theirs must hence have been a creative and benign governance before the race weakened, grew ambitious, and went to war. While outwardly successful, they had become arrogant and superficial. Therefore, Zeus decided to punish them... Unfortunately, the Critias breaks off right there.

 

Most of the information presented here is from Mary Settegast's Plato Prehistorian - a scholarly book highly recommended to anybody with a serious interest in Atlantology.

 

Accept for one small detail , those CULTURES are NOTHING AT ALL like   the CIVILISATION Atlantis was supposed to be .

Edited by Nungali
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... are you  supposing the super advanced Atlantians , with their circular ringed city and Navy and all their advanced technology went into Europe and all they managed to teach people was a new style of cave art ? 

 

 

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8 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

Maybe so.

 

However, it is hard to conceive how the ancient Egyptians accomplished some of the stone processing that they were evidently capable of without having inherited the means therefor from a civilzation as advanced as our own, if not more so.

 

Only if you  cant conceive of how they really did it 

 

One can just say ;  they used holes and hammered stakes into it, they used fire and then threw vinegar on it  ... but I have  evidence otherwise of other techniques as well as these.

 

I can post pictures here of half quarried blocks  still in situ that where obviously cut otherwise, and science and Egyptologists well know about it . 

 

 

Here is the other trick, or misunderstanding they tout .  "Science says they cut stone with copper saws, but those stones are harder than copper ! " They just dont understand the technique or misquote so they can refute it.

 

Then there is the case of  stone vases and pots, made well before any type of monumental buildings, or 'advanced' building techniques.

 

 

 

Did the ancient mother culture first teach them to make stone vases, then gradually develop it over time to emulate an evolving process  ?

 

8 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

Pffft !

 

 

Mechanical Engineering in Ancient Egypt, Part XII: Stone Cutting

https://scholar.cu.edu.eg/?q=galal/files/me_part_xii_ijarmate.pdf

 

8 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

However, I am open to the idea that Atlantean science and technology were advanced in a different direction than the one taken by ourselves overall. Along the lines of what Arthur C. Clarke shared, namely that the technology of a sufficiently advanced civilization will be indistinguishable from magic.

 

 

Does that idea come from Plato's or Donelley's  description of Atlantis ?

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5 hours ago, mrpasserby said:

Thanks, there does not seem to be a lot of support for the study and understanding of certain sciences of the past, except by those who are labeled as fraudulent and called alchemists/magicians. :)

 

Ohhh  ? ... there is  also the anthropologist  neo-hermeticist though  :)

 

 

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On 2.3.2019 at 8:19 PM, mrpasserby said:

Thanks, there does not seem to be a lot of support for the study and understanding of certain sciences of the past, except by those who are labeled as fraudulent and called alchemists/magicians. :)

 

Alchemy and Magic are two of the 'sciences of the past', and they are anything but fraudulence. :)

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