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Hi fellow Bums

 

As a few of you may already know, I spent the last one year or so researching the history of some ancient cultures (such as the ones in Egypt, the Americas,  Britain, the Pyrenees, amongst others), leading all the way back to the legendary civilization of Atlantis which I believe to be a historical fact. - Based on so many pieces of evidence.

 

This topic is linked to a larger book project I have been pursuing for a couple of decades by now. In regards to its historical section, I am intending to share some of my source material as well as original work in a series of threads, in the hope of finding some resonance and, if possible, a fruitful discussion. Also, be free to ask any questions that may come to mind - I will answer them to the best of my ability.

 

A good place to start our journey into the deep past seems to be the temporal demarcation line drawn by the end of the Last Glacial Period. However, before we depart, it seems to be a good idea to take a look at the topic of the ice ages in more general terms.

 

Since very early geological times, our planet has been going through a series of ice ages, alternating with long warm periods in which our globe was entirely free of ice.

 

The first ice age (called the Huronian) started about 2.4 billion years ago and lasted for 300 million years. It was later followed by the Cryogenian Ice Age lasting 165 million years from 800-635 mya, which was possibly the most severe of them all and might have produced a “Snowball Earth”, in which the Earth iced over completely.

 

A minor series of glaciations then occurred from 450-420 mya, which was followed by more extensive glaciations again for 100 million years from 350-250 mya.

 

More recently, an increase in glaciation on Earth started when ice began to build up over Antarctica about 36 mya during the so-called Eocene Epoch. It was probably related to the breakup of the supercontinent Gondwana, with a drift of the Antarctic continent toward the South Pole and the development of ocean passages around the Antarctica. Globally, temperatures markedly decreased then during the Middle Miocene (about 15 mya), probably as a result of the increased ice growth on Antarctica. The oceans cooled partly due to the formation of the Antarctic Circumpolar Current when ocean currents circled the Antarctic continent without reaching warmer latitudes.

 

At the opposite pole, the Greenland ice cap began to develop in the Middle Pliocene, about 3 mya. Before then, Arctic areas were comparatively warm, with trees and bushes growing far north of the present treeline.

 

The Quaternary Ice Age is the most recent ice age. Ice sheets began to spread over North America and Eurasia around 2.5 mya. This initial glaciation was followed by a series of warmer interglacials (each lasting 10,000-30,000 years) and renewed glaciations (each lasting 70,000-90,000 years) in alternation.

 

Within the Quaternary Ice Age, the most recent phase of glaciation is called the Weichselian/ Wisconsin Glacial Epoch. During its peak, ice sheets covered extensive areas above 40-50º North in both Eurasia and North America. It reached its maximum around 18,000 BC, whereafter the glaciers slowly started melting. That glaciation phase ended for good - and indeed rather abruptly - around 9,600 BC.

 

Due to the slowly melting ice sheets, the global sea-level rose about 60 meters between 18.000 to 9,600 BC, and an additional 50-60 metres until 6000 BC, when it finally reached the level it has today. During those times of rising sea-levels, many islands were covered by water and sediments, and at the same time, much of what once used to be coastal land is now underwater and tens of kilometers out to sea. This explains why man-made structures have been found submerged in various locations off the coasts, with many more supposedly yet to be found. Stories of a deluge in numerous cultures all around the globe may well represent 'collective memories' of those prehistoric changes.

 

For instance, the Bahama Archipelago (identified by the "sleeping prophet" Edgar Cayce as the location of the lost civilization of Atlantis) used to be a coherent dry land mass off the coast of Florida. The part remaining above sea-level today is just a small fraction of its prehistoric extent.

 

Other locations for Atlantis suggested by various researchers include the Greater and Lesser Antilles (also located in the Carribean) as well as the Azores. If interest warrants it, we will be looking into those various theories in more detail later.

 

So while there remain many questions yet to be answered, it strikes me as rather remarkable that a date around 9,600 BC (i.e., around the end of the Weichselian/ Wisconsin Glaciation)  was indicated for the destruction of the island of Atlantis in the very source of the story, Plato's late dialogues Timiaios and Critias. Plato's information seems to have come down to him via the Greek statesman Solon, "the wisest of the seven sage", who in turn had received it from Egyptian priests while visiting the very ancient city Sais in the western Nile delta. Again, we should have an opportunity to talk about that in far more depth later. :)

 

I wish to conclude this introductory post on the note that the Quaternary Ice Age isn't over yet - it continues to the present day. Although the Earth is at present luckily in an interglacial called the Holocene Era, the Quaternary Ice Age might continue for possibly millions of years into the future, as have several past ice ages.  If previous glacial-interglacial cycles are any indication of future cycles, it is likely that the present warm interglacial period will end sometime between tomorrow and 20,000 years from now. Then, massive glaciers will advance from the north again, covering much of North America and Eurasia. :unsure:

 

That being said, we do not need to fret over that possibility right now, as glaciers and ice sheets have been melting and the global sea-level has been rising at an average rate of 1.8 mm per year since 1961, and 3.1 mm per year since 1993. If this trend continues and the ice caps should fully melt, it is estimated that the Antarctica Ice Sheet would contribute more than 60 metres of sea-level rise, and Greenland would contribute more than 7 metres. Go figure!

 

However, it is not unusual for relatively short, somewhat warmer periods to occur both during glacial and interglacial phases. As for the current rise in temperature, its exact causes remain controversial (not least on this board) - however, that is not the theme of this thread! Please reserve THAT debate for one of the thread especially dedicated to it, such as this one:

 

 

Here, I intend to be looking at the Atlantis legend as shared by Plato in connection with the end of the last Ice Age (to put it more simply) and then to move on to explore other aspects of that lost civilizations and the inheritance that may have been received from it by subsequent cultures that we have more factual knowledge about.

 

An important source for what has been presented here was P.P. Flambas' book Plato's Carribean Atlantis - A Scientific Analysis, which I warmly recommend to anybody with a serious interest in the topic. Material from various other sources has been added, of course.

 

Please try to stay more on less on topic as outlined and try to post comments of a more general nature in our previous TDB Atlantis thread.

 

 

Thanks!

 

And feel free to discuss. :)

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Thanks.

 

If the Atlantean culture existed before the last ice age - then for how long do you think.  Do you have any prospective dates?

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15 hours ago, Apech said:

Thanks.

 

If the Atlantean culture existed before the last ice age - then for how long do you think.  Do you have any prospective dates?

 

That's a good question, although not an easy one. As you know, there is still no hard evidence even for the existence of Atlantis (although there is plenty of circumstantial evidence that I propose to look at in this thread in the future), much less any confirmed data for its age. Now different representatives of esotericism (Blavatsky, Steiner, etc) have set forth various 'channelled' models of Atlantis, including its timeline. Alas, there is little agreement to be found among them!

 

One source of clairvoyantly received data that I generally like to take a look at when it comes to such 'occult' historical topics is the material presented by the 'sleeping prophet' Edgar Cayce (1877-1945; in fact, I used to be a member of his organization ARE in Virginia Beach for a short while). Not least since Cayce made some remarkable prophecies regarding actual historical discoveries, including the dead sea scrolls eventually found in Qumran. Also, the information provided by Cayce often seems to fill in the blanks in confirmed historical knowledge rather nicely and in some cases provides us with quite sound working hypotheses. Not necessarily as far as all the given details are concerned, but at least in outline. That said, lacking additional evidence, I would not consider any such channelled information reliable - always take it with a grain of salt. Anyhow, FWIW, let's take a look now at what Cayce had to share on the history of Atlantis.

 

To be perfectly honest with you, Cayce's scheme starts out with a statement not exactly geared towards inducing faith in a scientifically educated brain of the 21st century: For he suggests that humanity manifested directly out of a spiritual world in the form of five races (note: he said this at a time when term 'race' was not yet perceived as politically incorrect) in five different places, roughly around 10,500,000 years ago. I won't be going into further details of this somewhat dubious theory; suffice it to say that when the red people projected onto the Earthly plane, this occurred actually in Atlantis! Even if this should somehow turn out to be correct, it would still seem questionable to put the beginning of any culture on so early a date.

 

The chronologically next mentioning of Atlantis in Cayce's trance session refers to a much later time, presumably around 100,000 BC. By then, humans (whose bodies were more ameba-like originally - i.e., again, if sleeping Cayce is to be trusted :unsure:) started 'solidifying' into the kind of beings we are so very familiar with today. So, within that framework, it may be a reasonable assumption that Atlantean culture commenced around that time as well.

 

It is interesting to note that, according to Cayce, the destruction of Atlantis did not occur all at once but was the result of three catastrophes that occurred around 50,700 BC, 28,200 BC (identical with the Biblical deluge) and 10,600 BC. The latter date is particularly interesting because it coincides rather nicely with the proven impact of a comet that kind of rebooted the last glacial at a time when it had virtually ended. That additional, final glaciation epoch is called the Younger Dryas and lasted until about 9,600 BC - which is, interestingly enough, the date implied by Plato for the destruction of the Atlantean land!

 

As an aside, a 19 miles wide impact crater of matching age has been discovered under a half-mile-thick Greenland ice sheet as recently as in 2018:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2018/nov/14/impact-crater-19-miles-wide-found-beneath-greenland-glacier

 

Now while that comet impact effectuated a new period of glaciation of another approximately 1,000 years, its more immediate effect was an extended melting of the Arctic ice sheet - whose dramatic consequences were vividly described by Richard Firestone in his important book The Cycle of Cosmic Catastrophes (p. 144):

 

From every existing river and stream, frigid freshwater flooded into the Atlantic, Pacific, and Arctic Oceans. The sudden pulse of melted ice caused sea levels to rise many feet within a few weeks, inundating the lowlands around the world. Relentlessly, day by day, thousands and then millions of square miles of once verdant grasslands and forests slipped beneath the rising ocean waves, never to be seen again.

 

As it so happens :D, approximately 10,600 BC is also the date of a global cataclysmic event as theorized by Graham Hancock in his well known book Fingerprints of the Gods, with the subsequent colonization of prehistoric Egypt by Atlantean settlers. The orientation of some of the so-called "star-shafts" in the Great Pyramid towards Orion constellation as well as the alignment of the Great Sphinx potentially towards Leo constellation rising on the Spring equinox seem to indicate that time. That said, Hancock in some of his subsequent publications also regards the second date - about 1,000 years later - as significant.

 

Coming back to Cayce, bottom line is, if he was correct with his 'channelled' information in regards to the upheaval that led to Atlantis' ultimate destruction, his data regarding the two previous breakups might be trustworthy as well.

 

Be that as it may, I will readily admit that I am not too comfortable with Cayce's theory of the creation of Man as outlined above. Granted, I too assume that human beings once entered this world essentially as spirits, however, I don't believe that their bodies were physically manifested out of the blue (as Cayce essentially suggest), but were the result of the genes of our ape-like ancestors being manipulated by those same non-physical entities desiring to incarnate on the Earth. This conception is more compatible with the conventional scientific theory of the creation of Man, while (quite literally) adding a spiritual dimension to it. Also, evolutionary biology suggests that red and yellow people are closely genetically related to each other, something that hard to explain if Cayce's conception of human origin was literally true.

 

Coming back to the question when the Atlantean culture may have started: Given its comparatively high level of cultural and technological advancement - as testified by Plato and also as  required by its supposed role as a mother culture from which some of the historically known advanced culture of antiquity were derived - we can safely assume that it must have existed at least  thousands of years by the time the last glacial ended. If during those times of glaciation the Atlantic Island provided a climatically stable and resource-rich environment , its inhabitants could have developed at least a Bronze Age civilization thousands of years before similar known civilizations elsewhere on Earth. Any technological advances could subsequently have been transferred during contact with less developed surrounding cultures.

 

The technology developed on Atlantis is a fascinating (and difficult!) topic in its own right, that we may well come back to later. In conclusion of this post, let us just briefly ponder on the initial colonization of the Atlantic Island. For it is quite unlikely that a human species would have evolved independently on an island out there in the ocean (leaving Cayce's jelly-like prehumans projecting onto the Earth directly from a spiritual plane out for once). We must consider then where its original settlers may have come from.

 

Now Plato states that Poseidon was the founder of the Atlantean civilization. But he was just one of several gods who each went to a different part of the Earth to settle. Thus, this statement might describe a dispersal of several colonizing groups from an original culture yet preceding Atlantis! The populations of the various settled lands might have made individual group leaders the "gods" of their origin myths later.

 

But since Plato describes indigenous people living on Atlantis already before Poseidon's arrival, it is possible that Poseidon was in truth a foreign cultural leader who travelled to the Atlantic Island with a group of followers who colonized it and intermarried with aforesaid indigenous people. Subsequent generations might then have deified Poseidon as the creator of their civilization.

 

 

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I think there were 'Atlantii', a number of advanced (for there time) civilizations that met there end by near biblical calamities of flood, fire, drought, plague.. there traces- trade and genetic are left in history.   As far as Island Atlantis, there were Islands like Crete that became powerhouses of there time.  Gathering great wealth (ala Florence) and myth (minotaur) and losing there fame and fortune.   

 

Our tech civilization is 200  years old from horse & buggy to moon.  We're no smarter then our ancestors.  Lost amid time, between ice ages and unknown calamities there could be small pieces of civilization that would amaze us. 

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blog4_temp.thumb.png.d56cc9df38930229dace7644fcb74b4b.png

https://muchadoaboutclimate.wordpress.com/2013/08/03/4-5-billion-years-of-the-earths-temperature/

 

My problem with the Atlantis idea is that before the Younger Dryas at about 10k BC there was an unstable period from about 500,000 BC as you can see from the above graph.  These 'rapid' increases and decreases in average temp would be very unstable in terms of a settled community - for crops and so on and the maintenance of a civilisation.  The last stable period is from about 10 million BC to say 2.5 million BC - which actually would fit in some way with Cayce (!).

 

Any comments on this?

Edited by Apech

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Are you familiar  with the site just north of Cadiz, Spain - near the long beach

 

https://www.google.com/maps/@37.0271329,-6.4239383,146769m/data=!3m1!1e3

 

'Parque Nacional  de Donana '    - now a wetland area .   

 

Outside of the 'Straights of Hercules'    seems  the best  historical  candidate so far   ( according to the Atlantis information supplied by Plato  )

 

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/42072469/ns/technology_and_science-science/t/lost-city-atlantis-believed-found-spain/

 

110314-science-rings-1031p.grid-5x2.jpg

 

 

 

 

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On 2/16/2019 at 12:24 PM, Michael Sternbach said:

Hi fellow Bums

 

As a few of you may already know, I spent the last one year or so researching the history of some ancient cultures (such as the ones in Egypt, the Americas,  Britain, the Pyrenees, amongst others), leading all the way back to the legendary civilization of Atlantis which I believe to be a historical fact. - Based on so many pieces of evidence.

 

This topic is linked to a larger book project I have been pursuing for a couple of decades by now. In regards to its historical section, I am intending to share some of my source material as well as original work in a series of threads, in the hope of finding some resonance and, if possible, a fruitful discussion. Also, be free to ask any questions that may come to mind - I will answer them to the best of my ability.

 

A good place to start our journey into the deep past seems to be the temporal demarcation line drawn by the end of the Last Glacial Period. However, before we depart, it seems to be a good idea to take a look at the topic of the ice ages in more general terms.

 

Since very early geological times, our planet has been going through a series of ice ages, alternating with long warm periods in which our globe was entirely free of ice.

 

The first ice age (called the Huronian) started about 2.4 billion years ago and lasted for 300 million years. It was later followed by the Cryogenian Ice Age lasting 165 million years from 800-635 mya, which was possibly the most severe of them all and might have produced a “Snowball Earth”, in which the Earth iced over completely.

 

A minor series of glaciations then occurred from 450-420 mya, which was followed by more extensive glaciations again for 100 million years from 350-250 mya.

 

More recently, an increase in glaciation on Earth started when ice began to build up over Antarctica about 36 mya during the so-called Eocene Epoch. It was probably related to the breakup of the supercontinent Gondwana, with a drift of the Antarctic continent toward the South Pole and the development of ocean passages around the Antarctica. Globally, temperatures markedly decreased then during the Middle Miocene (about 15 mya), probably as a result of the increased ice growth on Antarctica. The oceans cooled partly due to the formation of the Antarctic Circumpolar Current when ocean currents circled the Antarctic continent without reaching warmer latitudes.

 

At the opposite pole, the Greenland ice cap began to develop in the Middle Pliocene, about 3 mya. Before then, Arctic areas were comparatively warm, with trees and bushes growing far north of the present treeline.

 

The Quaternary Ice Age is the most recent ice age. Ice sheets began to spread over North America and Eurasia around 2.5 mya. This initial glaciation was followed by a series of warmer interglacials (each lasting 10,000-30,000 years) and renewed glaciations (each lasting 70,000-90,000 years) in alternation.

 

Within the Quaternary Ice Age, the most recent phase of glaciation is called the Weichselian/ Wisconsin Glacial Epoch. During its peak, ice sheets covered extensive areas above 40-50º North in both Eurasia and North America. It reached its maximum around 18,000 BC, whereafter the glaciers slowly started melting. That glaciation phase ended for good - and indeed rather abruptly - around 9,600 BC.

 

Due to the slowly melting ice sheets, the global sea-level rose about 60 meters between 18.000 to 9,600 BC, and an additional 50-60 metres until 6000 BC, when it finally reached the level it has today. During those times of rising sea-levels, many islands were covered by water and sediments, and at the same time, much of what once used to be coastal land is now underwater and tens of kilometers out to sea. This explains why man-made structures have been found submerged in various locations off the coasts, with many more supposedly yet to be found. Stories of a deluge in numerous cultures all around the globe may well represent 'collective memories' of those prehistoric changes.

 

For instance, the Bahama Archipelago (identified by the "sleeping prophet" Edgar Cayce as the location of the lost civilization of Atlantis) used to be a coherent dry land mass off the coast of Florida. The part remaining above sea-level today is just a small fraction of its prehistoric extent.

 

Other locations for Atlantis suggested by various researchers include the Greater and Lesser Antilles (also located in the Carribean) as well as the Azores. If interest warrants it, we will be looking into those various theories in more detail later.

 

So while there remain many questions yet to be answered, it strikes me as rather remarkable that a date around 9,600 BC (i.e., around the end of the Weichselian/ Wisconsin Glaciation)  was indicated for the destruction of the island of Atlantis in the very source of the story, Plato's late dialogues Timiaios and Critias. Plato's information seems to have come down to him via the Greek statesman Solon, "the wisest of the seven sage", who in turn had received it from Egyptian priests while visiting the very ancient city Sais in the western Nile delta. Again, we should have an opportunity to talk about that in far more depth later. :)

 

I wish to conclude this introductory post on the note that the Quaternary Ice Age isn't over yet - it continues to the present day. Although the Earth is at present luckily in an interglacial called the Holocene Era, the Quaternary Ice Age might continue for possibly millions of years into the future, as have several past ice ages.  If previous glacial-interglacial cycles are any indication of future cycles, it is likely that the present warm interglacial period will end sometime between tomorrow and 20,000 years from now. Then, massive glaciers will advance from the north again, covering much of North America and Eurasia. :unsure:

 

That being said, we do not need to fret over that possibility right now, as glaciers and ice sheets have been melting and the global sea-level has been rising at an average rate of 1.8 mm per year since 1961, and 3.1 mm per year since 1993. If this trend continues and the ice caps should fully melt, it is estimated that the Antarctica Ice Sheet would contribute more than 60 metres of sea-level rise, and Greenland would contribute more than 7 metres. Go figure!

 

However, it is not unusual for relatively short, somewhat warmer periods to occur both during glacial and interglacial phases. As for the current rise in temperature, its exact causes remain controversial (not least on this board) - however, that is not the theme of this thread! Please reserve THAT debate for one of the thread especially dedicated to it, such as this one:

 

 

Here, I intend to be looking at the Atlantis legend as shared by Plato in connection with the end of the last Ice Age (to put it more simply) and then to move on to explore other aspects of that lost civilizations and the inheritance that may have been received from it by subsequent cultures that we have more factual knowledge about.

 

An important source for what has been presented here was P.P. Flambas' book Plato's Carribean Atlantis - A Scientific Analysis, which I warmly recommend to anybody with a serious interest in the topic. Material from various other sources has been added, of course.

 

Please try to stay more on less on topic as outlined and try to post comments of a more general nature in our previous TDB Atlantis thread.

 

 

Thanks!

 

And feel free to discuss. :)

Atlantis never existed. There are actual underwater nations. An Ice Age is actually manufactured and not natural.

 

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Who 'manufactures' ice ages  ? 

 

Manufacture ;   make (something) on a large scale using machinery.

 

Can you please post picture of ice age manufacturing machine 

 

 

 

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9 minutes ago, Nungali said:

Who 'manufactures' ice ages  ? 

 

Manufacture ;   make (something) on a large scale using machinery.

 

Can you please post picture of ice age manufacturing machine 

 

 

 

The first underground level has a weather/gravity/earthquake/hurricane machine.

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I see ....  you can't answer my questions  and instead will try the tactic of diversion .

 

'Gravity machine' eh ?

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21 hours ago, thelerner said:

I think there were 'Atlantii', a number of advanced (for there time) civilizations that met there end by near biblical calamities of flood, fire, drought, plague.. there traces- trade and genetic are left in history.   As far as Island Atlantis, there were Islands like Crete that became powerhouses of there time.  Gathering great wealth (ala Florence) and myth (minotaur) and losing there fame and fortune.   

 

Our tech civilization is 200  years old from horse & buggy to moon.  We're no smarter then our ancestors.  Lost amid time, between ice ages and unknown calamities there could be small pieces of civilization that would amaze us. 

 

I agree.

 

An example for the kind of 'anachronism' you mention would be the ancient city of Jericho in Palestine. It has been assigned to the ninth millenium B.C., a time humanity was allegedly just emerging from Paleolithic primitivism. There was a monumental defensive complex found with a massive stone wall and tower that the excavator felt was strongly reminiscent of a grand medieval castle. The tower even has an interior stair-case of hammer-dressed stone steps as well as roof slabs.

 

For another example, we might look to eigth millenium B.C. Anatolia (modern Turkey): Instead of the rustic villages that would match the conventional historical picture, excavations brought to light an immensely rich and luxurious city now known as Çatal Hüyük that abounds with religious art apparently three to four thousand years ahead of its time.

 

In neither case have we got knowledge of any historical predecessor.

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Men like Da'Vinci were always at the mercy of there benefactors.  If a few like him had power and resources, science and tech would move up hundreds of years in a generation.

 

I'm thinking of a Chinese emperor in the early 1400s.  Built marvelous boats, set them to discover the world  They 'discovered' Europe and found it, primitive.  Probably found the Americas, but he died, his successor didn't see value in his fleet, burnt them up.  Records were scattered.   see https://www.amazon.com/1421-Year-China-Discovered-America/dp/0061564893

 

"On March 8, 1421, the largest fleet the world had ever seen set sail from China to "proceed all the way to the ends of the earth to collect tribute from the barbarians beyond the seas." When the fleet returned home in October 1423, the emperor had fallen, leaving China in political and economic chaos. The great ships were left to rot at their moorings and the records of their journeys were destroyed. Lost in the long, self-imposed isolation that followed was the knowledge that Chinese ships had reached America seventy years before Columbus.."

Edited by thelerner

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3 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

I agree.

 

An example for the kind of 'anachronism' you mention would be the ancient city of Jericho in Palestine. It has been assigned to the ninth millenium B.C., a time humanity was allegedly just emerging from Paleolithic primitivism. There was a monumental defensive complex found with a massive stone wall and tower that the excavator felt was strongly reminiscent of a grand medieval castle. The tower even has an interior stair-case of hammer-dressed stone steps as well as roof slabs.

 

For another example, we might look to eigth millenium B.C. Anatolia (modern Turkey): Instead of the rustic villages that would match the conventional historical picture, excavations brought to light an immensely rich and luxurious city now known as Çatal Hüyük that abounds with religious art apparently three to four thousand years ahead of its time.

 

In neither case have we got knowledge of any historical predecessor.

 

We need to remember these things are  'just what has been found  SO FAR ' .   They might be ahead of their time, or there might be missing factors.  For example, some old archaeology shows good drainage and sewer systems , yet   1000s of years later, in 'advanced' civilisations , like  England, they threw their crap out the widow so it stained the walls and streets .

 

There is evidence of vast civilisation and complexes in Amazon basin from the past , yet after that and  until recently , only   forest dwelling hunter gatherers with rudimentary agriculture inhabited it .

 

 

2ACE1DB800000578-0-image-a-6_14377393648

Hundreds of archaeological sites have been discovered alongside the rivers and tributaries of the Amazon basi

 

For some reason, Europe is often ignored .  .

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cucuteni–Trypillia_culture

 

https://indo-european.eu/2017/12/archaeological-origins-of-early-proto-indo-european-in-the-baltic-during-the-mesolithic/

 

and pre P.I.E.  in Europe;

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Europe_(archaeology)

 

Arkaim - Russia

 

Arkaim_Sintashta_Wikipedia.jpg

 

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRr0pA0u5o02nYHRM5WcZl 

 

5927c805fc6b9eb8bf6cc4abab7d248c.jpg

 

Also , have a look at my  'Burning down the house' thread ; 

 

and in regard to 'historical predecessors ;  

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aratta

 

http://www.arattagar.co.uk/

Edited by Nungali
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22 hours ago, Apech said:

blog4_temp.thumb.png.d56cc9df38930229dace7644fcb74b4b.png

https://muchadoaboutclimate.wordpress.com/2013/08/03/4-5-billion-years-of-the-earths-temperature/

 

My problem with the Atlantis idea is that before the Younger Dryas at about 10k BC there was an unstable period from about 500,000 BC as you can see from the above graph.  These 'rapid' increases and decreases in average temp would be very unstable in terms of a settled community - for crops and so on and the maintenance of a civilisation.  The last stable period is from about 10 million BC to say 2.5 million BC - which actually would fit in some way with Cayce (!).

 

Any comments on this?

 

Alright, that one sent me on a search for references most of the evening. :D

 

First, we must contemplate that the Atlantic Island described by Plato would most likely be located either in the area of the Azores (for which the Russian geologist N. Zhirov presented some evidence in his highly recommend, scholarly book Atlantis - Atlantology - Basic Problems) or in the Carribean (see Andrew Collins: Gateway to Atlantis, and especially P.P. Flambas: Plato's Carribean Atlantis). The latitude of the Azores is 37° 44', the latitude of Havanna, Cuba is 23° 8'.

 

Next we have to consider that during the Quaternary Ice Age, even though temperatures fluctuated globally, the climate in the lower latitudes remained quite pleasant overall.

 

E.g., regarding New Mexico, whose latitude of 34° 31' falls somewhere in between the aforementioned two locations:

 

Harris inferred cooler summers and a higher effective moisture than today through most of the glacial period (Isotope Stages 2 and 3), with warmer winters than today in the full and late glacial periods.

 

Julio L. Betancourt et al. - "Late Quaternary vegetation history of Rough Canyon, south-central New Mexico, USA", in: Palaeogeography, Palaeoclimatology, Palaeoecology 165 (2001) 71–95

 

And insofar the Atlantean civilization may have relied on the sea as a food source, this would seem to be relevant too:

 

How did the ice age ocean differ from the present one? The question is by no means settled, but a consensus has been reached on several aspects. First, it is generally agreed that surface currents were stronger. It is obvious why this should be so: surface currents are driven by winds, and winds depend on horizontal temperature gradients. With the ice rim and polar front much closer to the Equator, the temperature difference between ice (0 DC or less) and the tropics (ca. 25 DC) was compressed into a much shorter distance than now. Hence the temperature gradient was greater, winds were stronger, and so were ocean currents. Equatorial upwelling was intensified as a consequence, as well as coastal upwelling. Thus, at the same time that fertility decreased in high latitudes, due to ice cover, it increased in mid-latitudes (because of intensified mixing) and in the subtropics (due to upwelling).

 

E. Seibold/W. H. Berger: The Sea Floor - An Introduction to Marine Geology, p. 243

 

It is exactly the Atlantic Island's mild geographical position that may have enabled a small part of humanity to thrive and develop far ahead of the rest, which was struggling to survive the harshness of the ice age.


 

 

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On 17.2.2019 at 11:10 PM, Nungali said:

Are you familiar  with the site just north of Cadiz, Spain - near the long beach

 

https://www.google.com/maps/@37.0271329,-6.4239383,146769m/data=!3m1!1e3

 

'Parque Nacional  de Donana '    - now a wetland area .   

 

Outside of the 'Straights of Hercules'    seems  the best  historical  candidate so far   ( according to the Atlantis information supplied by Plato  )

 

Perhaps the best so far - but still quite a stretch from what Plato so minutely describes in his dialogues. However, your mention of Cádiz (BTW Europe's oldest extant city) brought to mind that, according to Plsato, as Poseidon divides the countries of the Earth between his sons:

 

“To his [Atlas’s] twin brother, who was born after him, and obtained as his lot the extremity of the (Atlantic) island towards the Pillars of Heracles, facing the country which is now called the region of Gades [today's Cádiz] in that part of the world, he gave the name which in the Hellenic language is Eumelus, in the language of the country which is named after him, Gadeirus.”

 

So maybe there is a connection after all - thanks! :)

 

On 17.2.2019 at 11:10 PM, Nungali said:

 

Yes, this computer graphic is reminiscent of Plato's description of Atlantis' capital. Quite conjectural, but nice. :)

 

On 17.2.2019 at 11:10 PM, Nungali said:

 

 

 

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23 hours ago, lino said:

Atlantis never existed. There are actual underwater nations.

 

Today? Of course there are!

 

index.jpg.b66bac202112e927ef0522e6611bf93a.jpg

 

 

23 hours ago, lino said:

An Ice Age is actually manufactured and not natural.

 

 

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23 hours ago, Nungali said:

Who 'manufactures' ice ages  ? 

 

Manufacture ;   make (something) on a large scale using machinery.

 

Can you please post picture of ice age manufacturing machine 

 

 

 

 

It's something likes this - just bigger!

 

images.jpg.7a7a8a9faeb049ca686fed0109e25cab.jpg

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6 minutes ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

It's something likes this - just bigger!

 

images.jpg.7a7a8a9faeb049ca686fed0109e25cab.jpg

 

Yes indeed .  Some people actually think like that. here the channel 10 weatherman is such an idiot, I banned the whole channel !

 

Snow/ski report  , idiot weatherman says , " Not much snow, but the snow machines are going full bore, creating a thick fine powdery, blanket. "  < cut to snow machines >

 

elsa.jpg

 

....   " And its great to see Australia doing its part to combat global warming ! "

 

:wacko:

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22 minutes ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

Perhaps the best so far - but still quite a stretch from what Plato so minutely describes in his dialogues. However, your mention of Cádiz (BTW Europe's oldest extant city) brought to mind that, according to Plsato, as Poseidon divides the countries of the Earth between his sons:

 

“To his [Atlas’s] twin brother, who was born after him, and obtained as his lot the extremity of the (Atlantic) island towards the Pillars of Heracles, facing the country which is now called the region of Gades [today's Cádiz] in that part of the world, he gave the name which in the Hellenic language is Eumelus, in the language of the country which is named after him, Gadeirus.”

 

So maybe there is a connection after all - thanks! :)

 

 

Yes, this computer graphic is reminiscent of Plato's description of Atlantis' capital. Quite conjectural, but nice. :)

 

 

 

The graphic is supposed to be based on various technologies detection equipment  ; satellite, lower altitude photography,  ground penetrating radar, etc .  (see Nat Geo  Vid parts 2 -4 . )  Also some stuff off the coast underwater assumed to be tsunami 'backwash' .

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3 hours ago, thelerner said:

Men like Da'Vinci were always at the mercy of there benefactors.  If a few like him had power and resources, science and tech would move up hundreds of years in a generation.

 

Quoting Flambas's aforementioned book on Atlantis:

 

Quote

If human intelligence has remained virtually unchanged for at least the past 30,000 years, millions of potential geniuses must have existed worldwide in all cultures over that time. Those individuals, singly or in collaboration with other like-minded people, could have produced leaps in cultural and technological development that were not intellectually possible for the bulk of the population. On the other hand, genius cannot exist in cultural isolation. Recognised geniuses such as Archimedes, da Vinci, Edison and Einstein in the sciences, or even Mozart and Beethoven in music, could not have achieved what they did without a supportive physical and social environment. If any of these individuals had been born into a hunter-gatherer social group or even a subsistence farming society, they probably could have achieved little that was revolutionary in their lifetimes. The rise of great civilisations over the past six or seven thousand years can be viewed as the product of incremental technical advances, of inventions. The advances are often created by geniuses within the population who are supported by the collective pursuits of the great majority of the population. Once inventions are created, the general population assimilates those advances into their culture. A stable physical and social environment on the Atlantic Island for thousands of years before 11,600 BP might have allowed any geniuses living there to develop the Bronze Age technology of Atlantean civilisation.

 

P.P. Flambas: Plato's Carribean Atlantis, kindle version, pos. 1966

 

Quote

I'm thinking of a Chinese emperor in the early 1400s.  Built marvelous boats, set them to discover the world  They 'discovered' Europe and found it, primitive.  Probably found the Americas, but he died, his successor didn't see value in his fleet, burnt them up.  Records were scattered.   see https://www.amazon.com/1421-Year-China-Discovered-America/dp/0061564893

 

"On March 8, 1421, the largest fleet the world had ever seen set sail from China to "proceed all the way to the ends of the earth to collect tribute from the barbarians beyond the seas." When the fleet returned home in October 1423, the emperor had fallen, leaving China in political and economic chaos. The great ships were left to rot at their moorings and the records of their journeys were destroyed. Lost in the long, self-imposed isolation that followed was the knowledge that Chinese ships had reached America seventy years before Columbus.."

 

Astonishingly, long before those Chinese sailors, Plato mentioned the American continent in his Critias - one of the very texts that also introduced Atlantis!

 

Quote

This island was larger than Libya and Asia combined, and it provided passage to the other islands for people who travelled in those days. From those islands one could then travel to the entire continent on the other side, which surrounds that real sea beyond.

 

(Emphasis is my own.)

 

 

Edited by Michael Sternbach
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57 minutes ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

Alright, that one sent me on a search for references most of the evening. :D

 

First, we must contemplate that the Atlantic Island described by Plato would most likely be located either in the area of the Azores (for which the Russian geologist N. Zhirov presented some evidence in his highly recommend, scholarly book Atlantis - Atlantology - Basic Problems) or in the Carribean (see Andrew Collins: Gateway to Atlantis, and especially P.P. Flambas: Plato's Carribean Atlantis). The latitude of the Azores is 37° 44', the latitude of Havanna, Cuba is 23° 8'.

 

Next we have to consider that during the Quaternary Ice Age, even though temperatures fluctuated globally, the climate in the lower latitudes remained quite pleasant overall.

 

E.g., regarding New Mexico, whose latitude of 34° 31' falls somewhere in between the aforementioned two locations:

 

 

 

 

Julio L. Betancourt et al. - "Late Quaternary vegetation history of Rough Canyon, south-central New Mexico, USA", in: Palaeogeography, Palaeoclimatology, Palaeoecology 165 (2001) 71–95

 

And insofar the Atlantean civilization may have relied on the sea as a food source, this would seem to be relevant too:

 

 

 

 

E. Seibold/W. H. Berger: The Sea Floor - An Introduction to Marine Geology, p. 243

 

It is exactly the Atlantic Island's mild geographical position that may have enabled a small part of humanity to thrive and develop far ahead of the rest, which was struggling to survive the harshness of the ice age.


 

 

 

 

Nice.

 

It was the fluctuations rather than the mean temperature which concerned me.  Ok its mild at these latitudes even if the north is frozen over - but changes in sea temperature and also level must have occurred throughout that period not just at the end.  This would mean that crops and so on would suffer - but maybe the seafood diet can go some way to explain it - as fish are very plentiful in cold oceans (cod for instance).  Maybe the civilisation had highs and lows through this period and Atlantis itself was the last vetiges of something much older.

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Looking at the cultures and technologies and urban development of the Iberian peninsula , it is interesting to note

 

" It is very unclear if any cultural influence originated in the Eastern Mediterranean (Cyprus?) could have sparked these civilizations. On one side the tholos does have a precedent in that area (even if not used yet as tomb) but on the other there is no material evidence of any exchange between the Eastern and Western Mediterranean, in contrast with the abundance of goods imported from Northern Europe and Africa "

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prehistoric_Iberia

 

That could suggest an independent development or influence from elsewhere other than  the eastern Med.

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Looking at the ice age and the long period of instability before that , we have evidence of people and settlements , in that time, virtually at the Arctic Circle in Siberia .   They dont constitute a  civilisation though . But it does show that climate change is regional and can have areas of great intensity OR 'refuge' .

 

We even have this book

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Arctic_Home_in_the_Vedas

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