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I was surprised to find Aurobindo talking about humans without souls, in the following article.
It seems to me that as the number of people increases and the nourishment in society decreases, a great many humans with malformed insides is increasing.

 

https://veilofreality.com/2011/04/18/organic-portals-soulless-humans/

 

 

 

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Edited by rideforever
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I was surprised too .

 

Not surprised about what Gurdjieff would say  though.

 

Nor Steiner .... but I cant help thinking, having  done some teaching at a Steiner school myself , about some poor little girl having a difficulty and all those snotty  higher evolved 'teachers' going "oh yes, she has a demon in her , and no soul ... well, we dont run a school for demons . "

 

My my my .    The crap they put into kids heads , and the stupid adults that send their own kids to a school like that  ! 

 

And those three where  cited  to 'set the stage '  ? 

 

" Portals "  ..... pfffft ! 

 

Then he introduces zombies¬†¬† "¬† Have you ever had this ‚Äúnightmarish fantasy‚ÄĚ that the world is populated by zombies ? Well, guess what, it isn‚Äôt a fantasy. Half the people out there are exactly that: ‚Äúsophisticated automatons that pretend to be like you‚ÄĚ.‚Ä®‚Ä®

 

And , of course ,¬† The Matrix movie ;¬† "It is entirely fitting that he uses the term ‚Äúagent‚ÄĚ (the Matrix movie anyone?) for the type of programmed being, ‚Äúbe they made from flesh and blood or silicon chips‚ÄĚ.

 

 

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AI and computers  making decisions for us  ... or for 'the good of all'   . 

 

F that !  I be installing  MANUAL   pod bay doors

 

 

 

I saw a doco on the development of driverless cars recently . peeps be " No way !  We won;t be having that ! "

 

Untill someone  ;  " Well,   your car will be able to take home after a night of drinking . "

 

 

.......   

 

  YEAH ! 

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Back in the seventies I was present at a seance. At one time the 'communication' was with a young woman who had died about ten years before. I cannot recall what the question was but a part of her answer was that not all people have souls.

 

I have not since come across this concept, until this post.

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, rocala said:

Back in the seventies I was present at a seance. At one time the 'communication' was with a young woman who had died about ten years before. I cannot recall what the question was but a part of her answer was that not all people have souls.

 

I have not since come across this concept, until this post.

 

Depends on ones definition of soul. ūüėä Lets take a peak into Mystical Judaism....

 

In Qabalistic terms, there is Nephesh which is the ‚Äúearthly soul‚Ä̬†- your personality and life matrix. It is your astral¬†body. ¬†The heavenly soul is called the Neshamah, and the two must be joined in order for consciousness to survive death - otherwise the Nephesh will return to the elements in which it was formed. ¬†

 

These two are joined by Ruach, which is the third quality of soul. This is the middle soul, inbetween the Earthly and Heavenly parts. This is your guide, your intelligence, your compass and road map. This distinguishes between Good and evil. It will also disintegrate upon death with the Nephesh. 

 

This is the same concept that is talked about in other traditions. Think ‚Äúeternal life‚ÄĚ or¬†‚Äúsalvation‚ÄĚ in the Christian tradition. This is just the Qaballahs mapping of the process.¬†

 

Edited by Fa Xin
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On 2/28/2019 at 7:54 PM, Fa Xin said:

epends on ones definition of soul. ūüėä Lets take a peak into Mystical Judaism....

 

In Qabalistic terms, there is Nephesh which is the ‚Äúearthly soul‚Ä̬†- your personality and life matrix. It is your astral¬†body. ¬†The heavenly soul is called the Neshamah, and the two must be joined in order for consciousness to survive death - otherwise the Nephesh will return to the elements in which it was formed. ¬†

 

These two are joined by Ruach, which is the third quality of soul. This is the middle soul, inbetween the Earthly and Heavenly parts. This is your guide, your intelligence, your compass and road map. This distinguishes between Good and evil. It will also disintegrate upon death with the Nephesh. 

 

This is the same concept that is talked about in other traditions. Think ‚Äúeternal life‚ÄĚ or¬†‚Äúsalvation‚ÄĚ in the Christian tradition. This is just the Qaballahs mapping of the process.¬†

Well said.:) From this starting place which in my experience is the future angel level, if the initiated is still alive and willing they could press on toward self hood.

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1 hour ago, mrpasserby said:

 

Well said.:) From this starting place which in my experience is the future angel level, if the initiated is still alive and willing they could press on toward self hood.

 

Thanks. ūüėä What‚Äôs the future angel mean? Like they‚Äôll incarnate as a being of light?

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Posted (edited)
On 3/3/2019 at 5:24 PM, Fa Xin said:

 

Thanks. ūüėä What‚Äôs the future angel mean? Like they‚Äôll incarnate as a being of light?

In my experience: those who manage a functional spirit still need to pass through initiation(s) to the point of self hood.  In my opinion about those who don't make decision to evolve it is mentioned in historical documents : 'they will nether marry or be given in marriage but will be as the angels.' 

In my experience: the causation of a lower state is the statement that at some point in their progression if they throw their crowns to their teacher/master (relying on teacher/master for salvation). The visual of this lower estate is the seen of Pentecost where the apostles where seen wearing tongs of fire/feathers of fire which in my opinion a lower estate. It does not mean that they cannot or will not achieve mastery, it is just telling of their current state, which needs to be passed by, or else they could be stuck.:)

Edited by mrpasserby
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Thank you, I have posted to very few who are interested in christian soul information, and at the same time can handle more then generic.:)

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...I don't know about not having souls... but in Robert monroe's books on out of body experiences he writes about his experiences with beings from different levels of conscious existence, and how some of them choose to be incarnated as humans.  He also claims that some people are such incarnated beings and they are living their first life as a human.  

 

... regardless of the terminology from sect to sect and tradition to tradition, what everyone does possess is consciousness in some form.  Not all beings may have a similar inner structure as others do, being a mediating body for their spirit (consciousness)... which is what is commonly called the astral body, or transformable spirit... 

 

... but if they are incarnated as a human, how else could they exist in human form?  

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According to the Bible's teachings, we know that in human beings to have a soul is equal to be alive. Therefore, only a dead body doesn't have a soul. 

 

Since this thread is also about theosophy, it's relevant to mention that in dvaita vedanta there's the same biblical concept, but extended to all living beings. 

 

In shamanism, it's more about "Spirit" than Soul... even though the terms are used interchangeably.    Spirit is something like Consciousness: to be conscious is to have a spirit... you are conscious because you have a spirit. 

For shamans, literally everything have a spirit: the cat, the dog, the car, the train, etc... 

 

I've heard that there's a guy who actually buy human souls, but he can harvest them only at the time of death. 

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There are many distractions, and if you fall for them you create a life and personality for yourself that is wholly alien to your natural being, and then you suffer.   Suffering beings can also encourage others to follow so they start destroying others.   Parasitic people who live by stealing energy from others, allow other parasites through, just like in the natural world.   They have worked out how to trick a soul to for instance live in fear, which weakens them and then they are parasited. 

 

One typical way is to convince someone that they would be "really great" and "advanced" and "really smart" to do xyz, where xyz is completely opposite to your natural being .... the soul then falls for this deception and will never arrive at becoming xyz because it is not his natural self .... so he will be running around in circles desperately trying to be someone that he is not ... and he will suffer and become weak because of it and will be parasited by those who gave him that false vision of what he is.  He was turned against himself.

 

A soul is like a True energy source, and half-beings and false-beings will try to live off that energy.   Why is there darkness ?   Why half-beings false-beings demonic-beings ?   Simply because life is real, and risk is real.   That is required if you wish the end product to be a True Being that is part of the Source.   If we were fully protected then there would be no point.   Becoming a True Being that may exist as himself for billions of years as part of the bliss of the Source, its a very high goal, and for such titanic graduates, the end-term exams are going to have to be very tough.

 

It may be that some humans bury their souls and walk around repeating the TV simply because they recognize the dangers of this world and wish not to risk damaging their souls during this life.   So they instinctively hide their souls and become just like everyone else.   Some wisdom in that.   Such people are just ordinary and live without feeling their souls.

 

Other humans are actively being damaged parasited mislead and so on, and according to legend your soul can be so badly damaged that you are not able to fix it.  You have so betrayed your true self that you create a false structure which cannot be undone, then you live forever in a state of self-betrayal and suffering.  Although this is rare as so many being will try to help you.

 

If you compare the ordinary view of the world with the spiritual then there is pain; but there is no need to do that.   You can live wholly in a yogic view of the world, or a taoistic, stoic, a course in miracles, law of attraction, or whatever other principle ... and this is probably a good way to live.

 

You can only ever become who you are, and you can unfold that one further.

 

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On ‚Äé01‚Äé/‚Äé03‚Äé/‚Äé2019 at 3:54 AM, Fa Xin said:

 

Depends on ones definition of soul. ūüėä Lets take a peak into Mystical Judaism....

 

In Qabalistic terms, there is Nephesh which is the ‚Äúearthly soul‚Ä̬†- your personality and life matrix. It is your astral¬†body. ¬†The heavenly soul is called the Neshamah, and the two must be joined in order for consciousness to survive death - otherwise the Nephesh will return to the elements in which it was formed. ¬†

 

These two are joined by Ruach, which is the third quality of soul. This is the middle soul, inbetween the Earthly and Heavenly parts. This is your guide, your intelligence, your compass and road map. This distinguishes between Good and evil. It will also disintegrate upon death with the Nephesh. 

 

This is the same concept that is talked about in other traditions. Think ‚Äúeternal life‚ÄĚ or¬†‚Äúsalvation‚ÄĚ in the Christian tradition. This is just the Qaballahs mapping of the process.¬†

 

The middle path is spirit ;)

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From my experience, everyone has an individual Essence, which is then invigorated and in parts controled by a superior thing, a "higher self", even if it isn't the naming I use.

 

Now, the Essence exists at the level of the Mind (with a capital "M", like the thing which connects all of your past lives and the current one), and the Higher Self on the beyond-the-mind.

 

There are cases in which this "higher self" simply isn't caring for the Essence, much less for you. It is "sleeping" or "isolated", would be metaphors which can be used.

 

This will generate a being "without soul", meaning it doesn't get any energy from its Higher Self, all of the Energy it manages to obtain comes from the Cause-Effect world we live in.


So, while someone with an Awaken Higher Self might find itself receiving a "call" for something, people with those "sleeping" won't feel any call. Won't feel their uniqueness and won't have any kind of "compass" in life. They will live, indeed, as automatons - receiving social, bodily and environmental inputs and simply living to react by them.

 

This has been VERY common in the past few hundred years due to certain spiritual reasons (it's "cleansing time" for the planet, and those Higher Selfes's who don't contribute will be forcefully ejected from here, so this is the "last chance" for most), but it tends to diminish within a few decades.

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This is a tough subject.  How can we say not all living things have souls?  Its hard to present adequately to anyone, because we all know people that deserve to be considered a soul that have obstacles to what a "normal" person might be.  

 

I think all people are conscious.  I don't think all people have a conscience.  Without some set of process, that person is sort of floating around- and you could call them soul less, but I like to think this is just a stage of development that can, with experience and introspection, develop into a conscious/conscience of soul.  

 

I think it is an interesting idea that different people of varied developmental stages exist in soul on different plains.  I put it this way:  you will get what you believe.  That means if you think it is ok to kill, you will be in a place where people kill.  If you think it is bad to hate, and fight against it all your life, you will find yourself (in the next phase) around people of the same inclination.  Of course, there is always the theory that each person has their own Universe, and these rules would still apply to that.  Its hard to imagine existing with other entities that have their own consciousness/conscience and everyone getting along (another stage of here).

 

From my experience I think its true that you have to mature, and I dare to say that your actions and person need to be recognized by the Divine in order to receive the benefit of moving forward.  That means monitoring your methods and perfecting your self so it appeals to the Deity.  Otherwise whats the point, really?  Other than a better society, how would these beings be received in another realm?  

 

Ive travelled extensively and sometimes I think I am encountering sentient beings and sometimes I think I am the only actual creature, surrounded by false lives to teach me lessons.  Really, whats the difference?  Its like AI- if its alive its alive, regardless if it had the freedom of choice.  In the end, I don't think we will have choice on the next plane, we will be reacting to what we learned.  If there is a reason to preserve souls, it must be that we are either entertaining, or comforting companions, or experiments to analyze.  If God does indeed love all living things, then there is that, but it must serve some purpose, no?  

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To me, accusing groups of people of not having a soul, most often means we don't know them and we don't like them.

 

Edited by thelerner

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47 minutes ago, thelerner said:

To me, accusing groups of people of not having a soul, most often means you don't know them and you don't like them.

 

 

In the shamanic traditions, the pretty much universal notion of "loss of soul" is not an accusation -- it's a diagnosis, very common, of a post-traumatic condition in which the soul shattered from some blow or a series of blows, fragmented, and parts of it (or, rarely, all of it) fled, usually trying to escape from fear or pain.  More often than not this happens in early childhood, sometimes under extreme conditions in adulthood.  The resulting person is incomplete to varying extents -- parts of the soul may have fled to the Upper or Lower world, and depending on the size and nature of those missing parts, there will be varying extents of dysfunction.  It can be emotional (most common), psychological, intellectual, or all of the above.  Sometimes the remaining parts of the soul will also be hypertrophied to compensate for the ones missing (e.g., overdeveloped intellect in an emotionally stunted person, or exaggerated emotionality in an intellectually deficient one.) 

 

The diagnosis is usually followed by a treatment -- "soul retrieval."  No one is qualified to make this diagnosis who is not a practicing shaman.  Someone with a bit of shamanic knowledge can, however, suspect the condition even before a full-blown diagnostic journey is undertaken.  Some cases (e.g. manifesting as PTSD+violence+addiction+unfeeling numbness, or sociopathy+manipulativeness+nonstop staging of drama, etc.) are so "textbook" that it's like a psychiatrist looking at catatonic stupor and muttering "schizophrenia" -- too obvious to not know what that is.  Most cases are not too obvious though.  And sometimes people who have suffered loss of soul project the condition onto others -- i.e. they can't feel their own soul, consequently can't feel the souls in others, and assume that's because others don't have it.        

Edited by Taomeow
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One of my first goals in therapy, some decades ago, was to feel like I was inside my body.¬† It wasn¬īt as though I was anywhere else -- I am not the floating-around-the-ceiling type -- but I didn¬īt feel solidly rooted inside myself.¬† I think this is a symptom of the kind of soul fragmentation Taomeow mentioned above, and I think it¬īs extremely common.¬† There¬īs all sorts of subclinical cases: people who¬†function just fine in everyday life and don¬īt have any glaring psychiatric diagnoses and yet aren¬īt entirely put together either.¬†¬†

 

When cultivation is working for me I know because I feel myself inhabiting my body differently.¬† My voice deepens.¬† There¬īs not that baseline jumpiness that keeps my energy from settling down out of my head.¬† I¬īm just more me.

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46 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

 

In the shamanic traditions, the pretty much universal notion of "loss of soul" is not an accusation -- it's a diagnosis, very common, of a post-traumatic condition in which the soul shattered from some blow or a series of blows, fragmented, and parts of it (or, rarely, all of it) fled, usually trying to escape from fear or pain. 

I was thinking of adding a line saying that aimed at an individual, it might be accurate and as you point out, diagnostic, not necessarily a slam.  I just find when aimed at groups, it tends to say more about the accuser then the accused.  

 

 

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I would not bother with mechanical aspects of you that are not You.

 

Regarding You, it is neccesary from a POV, in that, if you never observe what you perceive and act back into the system, then how are you to change? In Kabbalah Kether is WILL / intention which is neccesary in order to rule your experiential timeline. Lack of this will result in something like a void state. There is still activity but time never flows. Because the reactions and contents are the same. Its like being a lifeless rock in space forever - until you the  kabbalistic soul begin to turn the wheel of life and death...WILL...

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One aspect of soul is passion. The world's problem is too many are living without passion. 

 

We grow out of our passions, 'adult' out of them.  And thats a pity. 

 

It's not

he who dies with the most toys, wins.

Its he who has the most passion. 

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I would like to challenge this group to name the parts of the soul and what a soul "should" be.  It seems that you are saying there is such a thing, as you are saying its possible not to have one, so... what makes a creature to have a soul? Start listing them.  When we have enough attributes of a soul we can then declare what that person needs to do with these attributes to define them as a soul/spiritual being.  Eventually my hope is to name a perfect entity and the society that it would live in/spawn it.

Edited by Mskied
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