Jadespear

...not sure as to the scholastic answer on the taoist usage of the term... however having experienced an aspect of it, I believe it is the same universal (shared or common) Self. The one aspect of life that is common to all living things...their spirit/consciousness/essence etc. ...since taoist sages were more poetic and allegorical than literal and analytical... I don't know how they would describe it. It's the literal light of consciousness itself... I suspect that through enough meditation one would encounter this aspect of themself. It's irreducible because it simply cannot be taken away from in parts, if it were to reduce in size it would be just smaller but the same quality. Its quality is also immutable, as in it cannot be turned off... it is always there, it is the part of you that is defined as "life" itself. Without it, you wouldn't exist. Mutability is used to refer to its sonic (sound) aspect... it is something you can hear in introspection that is like an eternal energy bulb. However quiet anyone or anything is... they are all still alive and generate sonic frequency. You can throw shades over lights, but that doesn't make the light stop from being there... its irreducible as in full entirely of it's own quality - complete, it is not something made by a combination of other things, immutable - always existent unable to be stopped/denied. You can't stop yourself from existing...no matter how hard we try ; - )

@ Steve - Yes, you are correct in the recognition that the term "Self" is a translation used in many Hindu texts... It is also referred to in Taoist texts as that word and also other ones to describe one's true irreducible and immutable nature.

Mithras speaks in riddles he doesn't even understand. Minds betray the hearts of black lungs As do opaque skies reveal the shades of mist Wherever, whenever, and to whom do the clouds aspire to enchant and abrupt us?

I challenge this way of thinking. Some people may be largely on auto pilot, but others are not. Through many periods of introspection and reflection I have glanced at what I believe I truly am. People are essentially conduits for and a means of expression of ideas that are inspired by intuition which comes from the great tao itself. So there is in fact - YES - a self directing it all, it's just not the one most people consider, one's spirit is not one's mind. Empty yourself of everything.Let the mind rest at peace.The ten thousand things rise and fall while the Self watches their return.They grow and flourish and then return to the source.Returning to the source is stillness, which is the way of nature.The way of nature is unchanging.Knowing constancy is insight.Not knowing constancy leads to disaster.Knowing constancy, the mind is open.With an open mind, you will be openhearted.Being openhearted, you will act royally.Being royal, you will attain the divine.Being divine, you will be at one with the Tao.Being at one with the Tao is eternal.And though the body dies, the Tao will never pass away

I'd begin by training all 3 parts of yourself... the mind, the spirit, and the body. Simply begin to eat a taoist way...balance yin and yang with the 5 elements Cleanse the mind to purify the spirit by embracing nothingness and space Meditate to focus on beginning the microcosmic orbit meditation to enhance and amplify qi flow for optimal health

...It is laughable? Why? What is achieving "the way"...

... yeah I don't need people pissing down my back and telling me its raining. It's easy to intuitively know where a person is coming from, especially having been there yourself. What do you care freeform? Why would you even respond like you did to this person? Obviously they don't care about anything besides being powerful... is that what you are like to?

Ahem.... can we please stop with the "let's understand" mindset. Some random person comes in here asking how to become powerful.... that's all that person has said. There has been no discussion on why, for what purpose, or even for what one hopes to learn. I hope anyone with a semblance of conscience has the decency to be honest with such a person, like I am. It's just like someone saying, "I want to be rich". With no discussion on the means to become rich and how to navigate that road. Impressionable young people are the easiest to control. Which is why they should learn and grow up as quick as they can. Everyone wants the power to direct their own lives. This person doesn't seem like they are inquiring about that...they seem to want power over other people, or the power to do something else to someone else or something that they currently do not possess. Such desires are child's play without a larger context.

How old are you? I bet you're like 13 years old. Too immature for anything from this forum. Best power you can acquire is knowledge of the world. That's learned by living in it and holding a prestigious job. Go be a doctor or a lawyer. Don't waste your time here.

Thank you Dwai. So, to refine your explanation... the terminology is confusing. Nirvana is void? Void as in what? The meaning of this word in these subjects eludes me... does it mean "open"? I think in a literal way, so to say something is void doesn't make much sense. And, does the equivalency of Samasra and Nirvana only hold true in how they relate to the reality of brahman? Obviously, something that has form cannot be defined as being formless... how does this make sense? If you'd like, I'd like to ask you a more personal question in a separate message about the nature of a Jiva and the Self realization you talk about.

Too bad that you don't see everything as a "spiritual" thing. I think the great misconception everyone ever always has is thinking like that. That somehow, parts of life and existence are pointless compared to others. I don't see how there can be any classification of what is higher/lower or sideways about any of it. It's all part of life, therefore it's all important. Thats all I'm saying. Wonderous supernatural things included.

Once again Dwai - your response contains nice information, but you haven't responded to the first direct question. Can you? Knowing what one is, is only 1 piece of knowledge. That 1 piece does not contain within it every other piece of knowledge that could ever be learned. It's like your saying that the engine of a car contains all the knowledge of the car... which simply isn't true. The engine isn't the wheel or the axle, or the brake, or the spoke. Just because they are interconnected doesn't distinguish unilateral identical meaning between all parts. Furthermore - your making contradictory points with regards to your overall premise. Yoga is actually a dualism tradition, because you are asserting the fact that there is 1 thing that is absolute and true and real = the Self. Everything else in the phenomenal world is something else. The Self is eternally separate from the phenomena. That's a duality. The way the two interact is the motion of existence itself. Isn't this the concept of "purusha" and "Prakriti" that Patanjali references? The Purusha is the Self. The Siddhis are side effects when one approaches oneself in the way you describe. Just because they occur more or less at random and spontaneously through that approach doesn't render them useless... and it also doesn't render them as obsolete/pointless to understand or ever develop into something that can be controlled and used for good. I welcome any rebuttal you have to this... but don't see how you could ever argue successfully against reason and logic. Well, I'm not sidetracked. Thanks for the warning. Why are you so obsessed with peace and happiness? Don't you realize that life is not all about peace and happiness all the time? Your highest knowledge still does not make sense really. Saying knowing something is the highest thing by itself makes no sense. Thats like saying "I know how to make the best meal in the world". and then never making it for anyone ever. Wow, it's a great self comforting fact to think about as you walk around, but is of no use to anyone in a practical sense beyond conceptual and theoretical understanding. Thats why it's the beginning, not the end.

Um, how does your first statement make any sense whatsoever? What exactly are you referring to when you say self realization? It makes no sense, because of the entire historical record of humanity. No one has to achieve self realization to learn about anything else... if they did then the entire history of the world would not be what it is. But it is, what it is. Self realization isn't required to learn about other non-esoteric subjects. So once again, please continue... because I'd like to understand your point of view. And what is it higher compared to? What is beneath it? Self realization may be a very special piece of knowledge that we can all attain, but it's not necessary to attain it to know anything else. ...alleviating all the world's problems? Never said that was an objective. But, I'll go there with you... if you want to compare the usefulness of skills/abilities vs faith based religions and states of mind.... then look at the history of the world. Skills/abilities beat religion and states of mind every day. Peoples problems are their own responsibility to overcome or deal with - that is what I believe. Your own unique identity is only made unique by the things you have embraced in the past and what you need to overcome and embrace in the present.... without distinction and difference there would not be difference between anyone in a karmic sense. Seems that you just don't get the point on learning. Learning never ends... it's not possible to ever really assert in absolute truth that you do know everything, that you have attained something akin to the most highest thing or whatever, that you can basically answer every question someone has without inquiring into their inquiry, without communicating with people. Without endeavoring to learn what is going on. I mean I get what you're trying to say in a sense that eventually enough is enough and we all need to relax and be content with ourselves. But that too is temporary.... eventually you'll want to move along in some direction for some reason. And just because you believe fervently in what you do and many other people have before you - doesn't in any way render your belief as true or valid. Just look at the millions of Christians in the world...none of them really know much and are mostly all blinded by their own dogma/beliefs etc. Same is true for every religion.... I think you misunderstand the whole point I've been trying to make and you are mis-representing the subject matter and people who are interested in it. We aren't talking about "chasing" siddhis like they are play things to be misused... we are talking about seriously understanding them and their usefulness in light of the greater context of life itself. Siddhis, I seem to remember... really translate to "accomplishment". Accomplishment of what exactly? Accomplishment of concentration/meditation/focus/intent/imagination toward a direction. Almost as if they are a distinguished accomplishment of the fluctuating mind. Some of the minds greatest abilities made manifest. They are the divine right of every human being. Your highest truth of self realization is more like the yin side to the siddhi yang side. They can both compliment one another. Neither is ultimately or absolutely better than the other in every life circumstance. They both have a use.

@dwai - You still haven't disproven the validity of pursuing understanding siddhis. All you've said is that your highest knowledge is the highest knowledge and haven't proven why either... I'd love to hear it. Please enlighten us. Parlor tricks? I think thats a very poor way to describe someone who can heal another through a process of energy exchange, or someone who could materialize food for the hungry, or someone who could teleport to save you from disaster. I really doubt that you've experienced really anything of what you say. Haha, do I go chasing/craving things? No. I pursue things. It's a different level of quality than chasing/craving as you seem to describe. And, yes I do enjoy learning as much as I can. So I do it a lot. And, yes I will gladly keep on believing in what I like about the "escape" reality "freedom" nonsense that people like to talk about. Until someone can articulate a well reasoned position to the contrary. Can you? @dwai

Guy 1 - "Hey! Guess what guys I finally learned the highest knowledge...." Guy 2 - "Oh really, thats nice. Did you bring anything for dinner?" Guy 1 - "No, we don't need to eat because we have the highest knowledge..." Guy 2 -" What are you talking about?...your knowledge is useless and I'm hungry, don't you know where to get food from?" Guy 1 - "Sorry, no I don't know where to get food from." Guy 2 - "Great, I'm so glad you found your great revelation. Now go figure out how we're goin to eat tonight." Guy 1 - "Where?" Guy 2 - "Seriously?" Hahahahahaha.