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Taoist Immortal vs Buddha

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Would a Taoist Immortal be considered a Buddha? Or would they be considered more like a Bodhisattva or even an arhat? 

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It depends on the the traits of different schools and philosophies. 

 

From a Buddhist perspective, it should be understood that the rank of a daoist immortal is inferior to the rank of Buddha, and even inferior to the rank of bodhisattva because of an imperfect understanding of emptiness. 

 

From a daoist perspective, a Buddha neglects the cultivation of the body, thus missing an essential element to achieve perfection. 

According to Cha Pi Chen and his tradition, a Buddha cultivates Nature, but he doesn't cultivate life. 

 

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Dare I say, that an imperfect understanding of emptiness is a perfect understanding of emptiness : )
 

Quote

It depends on the the traits of different schools and philosophies. 

 

Most definitely so, and I'd say this is FROM a very NARROW, Daoist perspective and from a very NARROW Buddhist perspective.

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On 11/6/2018 at 11:08 PM, Eden said:

Would a Taoist Immortal be considered a Buddha? Or would they be considered more like a Bodhisattva or even an arhat? 

 

No, I'd say they are different stages.

 

Taoist Immortal sounds the coolest, though... 

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They achieve the same thing but Daoism is seen as more physical and Buddhism is more mental. I personally see Buddhism as more direct, think Zen, as it kind of shouts out what enlightenment is all about although, ironically, the art is where it's at! The Daoist route achieves enlightenment by striving for physical perfection through discipline. Of course an individual will choose the route most suitable to their nature.  

 

The outcome of each school is the same yet is perceived as different:

Buddhist's: Know they don't know

Daoist's: Don't know they know  

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On 2018/11/8 at 6:42 PM, Marblehead said:

But regardless of their differences and similarities, they all die.

 

Oh well.

 

 

Those who can't  live forever "physically' ( note that Taoist sense of physical is  a little  different from those of science )  ,of course, can't be called immortal;

 

Taoist highest achievement is not just a forever life, but life form beyond space and time ,  as we are told:

 

" 聚則成形, 散則成氣" 

 

(" While  it gathers and consolidates  , it appears to us as  forms ; while  it  dissipates , it appears  to us  as qi "  )

 

And,  such a process can be manipulated at  a superb  taoist immortal's  own will.

 

So, Taoist highest achievement looks like some kind of teleportation,  the only difference is that instead of dealing with jing-qi-shen , in Western science and technology, they emphasize how to build up some kind of physical device so that matter  or energy , in the form of  particle, field , or big molecule can go from this place to other place without traversing the space between them. Of course,  whether a man after having teleported,  is still a man gets  his  original  mind or character,   hardly  is their concern. 

 

On the other hand,  Taoists argue ( in  many  of its legends about immortals ) that they already succeeded in some kind of teleportation as jing-qi-shen on pre-celestial level is , in fact , a whole;  it is only after its having embodied in a body ( fallen  to post-celestial level ), that it is split  and blocked by physical obstacles and timely intervals ( as we live a   post-celestial life, we are limited by past-present -future );  a return to pre-celestial status enables us not only  live inside this  body, but outside it , in fact,  live wherever we like ; not just live as  one self,  but  as many split selves  simultaneously , linked to each other  through quantum entanglement , maybe  :- )   .

Edited by exorcist_1699
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2 hours ago, exorcist_1699 said:

On the other hand,  Taoists argue

I won't argue with what you said as it appears to be consistent with the little I know of Taoist Alchemy.

 

However, for now I will continue to hold to the concept of "transmutation".  It is consistent with the Taoist concept of "creation and destruction" as well as "birth, life, death".  And it is also consistent with science and my personal experiences.

 

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Of course the first Buddha had to be given his ever lasting spirit life by the Jade Emperor. There is no such science that teaches how to cultivate to become an Immortal in Buddhism. Buddha never wrote down his teachings. All spiritual beings that live in the Heavens must first go before the Jade Emperor to be given their power and position. The difference is that those that follow and understand the Dao, cultivate their own power until they become 'realized'. Once in this state, matter separates from spirit, matter dies and the spirit energy is set free. Once free, ultimate power is accessible as an Immortal. Dao cultivators go through challenging and adverse lives in their path to Immortal-hood. Not an easy path and not as some think that one can just meditate for a long time a hey presto one's become enlightened :)  

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The interaction of something and nothing is consciousness and this is the great gateway which is eternally opening and closing. Something and nothing are derived from the causeless cause and perceived as separate and as such are the beginning and end yet eternally one. Enlightenment is realising, accepting and living with it and thus one becomes immortal.

 

There is a large crossover between Buddhism, Taoism, Hinduism and other systems/philosophies/religions yet it is not apparent as each will focus on aspects which are more easily digested, and consequently more easily disseminated, as a result of cultural bias. This is not to say that any one system is incomplete but rather that it's tailored to function within the boundaries of a specific cultural-mindset.    

 

The crux of it is:

Death devolves all except the eternal primal perception/consciousness.

We all reappear eternally reborn from our seeds which existed at our last breath as potential.

As we descend into human birth we don appropriate garments. 

Immortals grow towards the same self realisation as in the previous round.

Non Immortals reappear and chase their desires.  

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18 hours ago, Patrick Brown said:

The interaction of something and nothing is consciousness and this is the great gateway which is eternally opening and closing. Something and nothing are derived from the causeless cause and perceived as separate and as such are the beginning and end yet eternally one. Enlightenment is realising, accepting and living with it and thus one becomes immortal.

 

 

 

 

From Taoist viewpoint,  whatever consciousness we  get , even Enlightenment , doesn't necessarily  lead us to immortal , it  really depends on how deep, how thorough  our mindless Mind influences our body (  Buddhists hate  to talk about the body  ,  we Taoists don't mind ..) ;   even in Chinese Zen, we get the famous  formula of  how deep  Zen mediation is  in  correspondence with  what effects we get :

 

1) The initial stage of Zen ("初禪念住"  ): No mind and no fluctuations of ideas ;

 

2) The second stage of Zen("二禪息住") : No breathing ;

 

3)The third  stage of Zen ("三禪脈住")  : No heart beat  at all ; 

.

.

.

 

Of course, the highest stage of Taoism ,as mentioned  above ,  is  the qi-lization  of the whole body and consolidation of  it  again at whatever place/ time in this universe at our Mind's own will .

 

People may be astonished by my " careless"   talks  about no breathing and  no heart-beat : Isn't  no  breathing means no oxygen entering  our brain, and it means great harm...?

 

Yes, it is , but what they miss to notice  is  that if  stoppage  of breathing is achieved through a  deliberate no-mind practice, then such a  stoppage   also implies  the initial rise of  the pre-celestial qi,  that means , we have been entering  a stage of using pre-celestial qi to nourish our brain, not post-celestial oxygen .  Saints / immortals  and  the common people  definitely are walking on   every different paths ,  hardly can  people  expect to  live in a totally different life form  only  by just doing some philosophical reasoning or seeing some Hollywood movies ..

Edited by exorcist_1699
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Today, science tells us that the essence of nature is grace.

The goal of psionic wave oscillations is to plant the seeds of rebirth rather than bondage. You and I are messengers of the quantum cycle.

Nothing is impossible.

Humankind has nothing to lose. Who are we? Where on the great journey will we be recreated? We are in the midst of an endless flowering of truth that will remove the barriers to the stratosphere itself.

nature?11

It can be difficult to know where to begin. How should you navigate this authentic nexus? Have you found your path?

If you have never experienced this reimagining devoid of self, it can be difficult to reflect. The quantum cycle is calling to you via morphogenetic fields. Can you hear it? Although you may not realize it, you are perennial.

Bondage is born in the gap where synchronicity has been excluded. The complexity of the present time seems to demand an invocation of our dreams if we are going to survive. We can no longer afford to live with materialism.

We exist as transmissions. Interconnectedness is the richness of peace, and of us. This life is nothing short of an invocation current of infinite starfire.

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15 hours ago, exorcist_1699 said:

From Taoist viewpoint,  whatever consciousness we  get , even Enlightenment , doesn't necessarily  lead us to immortal , it  really depends on how deep, how thorough  our mindless Mind influences our body (  Buddhists hate  to talk about the body  ,  we Taoists don't mind ..) ;   even in Chinese Zen, we get the famous  formula of  how deep  Zen mediation is  in  correspondence with  what effects we get :

 

1) The initial stage of Zen ("初禪念住"  ): No mind and no fluctuations of ideas ;

 

2) The second stage of Zen("二禪息住") : No breathing ;

 

3)The third  stage of Zen ("三禪脈住")  : No heart beat  at all ; 

 

Are there more stages in Chinese Zen?

From Daoist viewpoint, where do you place the 2nd and 3rd stage?

 

 

15 hours ago, exorcist_1699 said:

Of course, the highest stage of Taoism ,as mentioned  above ,  is  the qi-lization  of the whole body and consolidation of  it  again at whatever place/ time in this universe at our Mind's own will .

 

People may be astonished by my " careless"   talks  about no breathing and  no heart-beat : Isn't  no  breathing means no oxygen entering  our brain, and it means great harm...?

 

Not careless at all, if one studies Chinese Medicine it makes perfect sense.

So, both no breathing/no heart-beat and breathing/heart-beat are natural, how cool is that?

Do you know if the no breathing/no heart-beat are just temporary stages/states (when you first "reach" that stage) or can they be sustained for long periods of time?

 

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4 hours ago, steve said:

The title of this thread sounds like a title for a Trey Parker/Matt Stone cartoon!

 

What about MTV Celebrity Deathmatch?

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9 hours ago, KuroShiro said:

 

What about MTV Celebrity Deathmatch?

 

Thanks, i was just about to mention that last time a match like this was arranged the Immortal got placed in cooldown for an odd number of centuries and Buddha had to wash his Venerable So-Gone hands a lot to get rid of the reek of urine...

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On 2018/11/13 at 7:35 AM, KuroShiro said:

 

Are there more stages in Chinese Zen?

From Daoist viewpoint, where do you place the 2nd and 3rd stage?

 

 

Not careless at all, if one studies Chinese Medicine it makes perfect sense.

So, both no breathing/no heart-beat and breathing/heart-beat are natural, how cool is that?

Do you know if the no breathing/no heart-beat are just temporary stages/states (when you first "reach" that stage) or can they be sustained for long periods of time?

 

 

From Taoist point of view, it is a process of Shen's reuniting with  Meng ( our  physical life of jing and qi) :  First you can stop your breathing through  having consolidated  a  mindless Mind , not through a deliberate mind ,  for 1~ 2 minutes, then 15 minutes..and longer ;  later you can stop your heart beat  at  your own will ..( just place your finger on your pulse at the wrist but not be distracted , whenever it happens , likely  in a gradual diminishing  process , you can sense it  ;  since you make it happen , you can re-activate it  ) .  Accompanied these with your skin turned back  baby-like,  fallen teeth reborn ..etc, physical immortality becomes something believable, otherwise  all are self-deceit .  I always think that physical  proofs are  more re-liable  than spiritual proofs for   you can get a mental disease  and think yourself   turned into  an immortal or Messiah , but physical proofs can  always be used as reliable counter-checking..

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