Dantiens and Chakras - the same or different?

[Limahong]

2 hours ago, windwalker said:

I still hold that one should have a firm grasp of what ever practice they follow before comparing with other practices.

 

Hi windwalker,

 

Very true and thank you.

 

- LimA

 

 

[dwai]

2 hours ago, Sramana said:

I offer no opinion here. I do, however, offer up some personal experiences for your analysis.  I have generated enough heat by moving energy through my chakras to physically burn flesh.  I cannot do this with Dan Tien focus.  I can, however, go into a deep meditative state that will greatly reduce my heart rate and respiration with a Dan Tien focus.  I can not create that deep of a state through my chakras.

Rest your mind on instead of “focus” on your heart chakra and see what happens

[Mudfoot]

12 hours ago, windwalker said:

I still hold that one should have a firm grasp of what ever practice they follow before comparing with other practices..

 

 

 

And doing research beyond a quick Google is also a great thing, especially since neither the Chinese or the indo-tibetan tradition are homogenous in how they do things. 

If you look hard enough, you will Always find a handful of (unrelated?) traditions that share whatever viewpoint. And Yin is more than Earth. 

 

Although, as you say, that only matters if you have a firm grasp of a practice where this matters. And after that, comparison becomes interesting.

[Sramana]

On 2/3/2018 at 7:05 AM, dwai said:

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Edited February 5, 2018 by Sramana

[dwai]

2 hours ago, Sramana said:

 

anāhata śabda

Stay with that sound and go deeper 

[windwalker]

12 hours ago, Sramana said:

I have generated enough heat by moving energy through my chakras to physically burn flesh.

 

What does this mean "to  physically burn flesh"  who's flesh,  how was the "energy" moved 

with out damaging  the system that moved it and yet still having an effect on the

"the soft substance consisting of muscle and fat that is found between the skin and bones of a human or an animal"

 

ie  "flesh" 

 

was this an objective or subjective observation

[Boundlesscostfairy]

I think it would be openminded to ask.. what colors the dantiens are..?

 

Because the chakras are colorful.. which lends meaning to their mystical existence..

 

I keep seeing the dantiens as a bit of grey(chi source energy) mixed with black.. which is a void

 

But since asking.. I now could imagine green might be one of the colors of a dantien

[windwalker]

an article covering some of the questions 

 

http://www.ichikung.com/html/dantians.php

"Although the chakra systems are more significant in the Buddhist and Yogic traditions, both of these spiritual disciplines commonly refer to the Three Dantians areas in their energetic practice. According to ancient Buddhist and Yogic traditions, these three areas contain the three psychic knots or "Granthi" where an individual's energy and spiritual consciousness interact and manifest in particular ways."

 

 

Some might find the information useful...

[windwalker]

a good friend of mine wrote this 

 

http://www.hsvtaichi.com/DanTianAndChannels.pdf

 

http://www.hsvtaichi.com/

[windwalker]

completely agree not something that should be attempted with out guidance.

 

 

 

"In 1981, Harvard Medical School researcher Herbert Benson traveled to Tibet to meet with three Buddhist monks expertly trained in a form of yoga named g-tummo, a practice that is popularly associated with the ability to warm your body temperature through concentration. His academic interest in the practice lies in his research focus on “mind body medicine”, described in his official biography:https://www.snopes.com/harvard-study-confirms-tibetan-monks-can-raise-body-temperature-with-their-minds/

 

 

"Since meditative practices are associated with changes that are consistent with decreased activity of the sympathetic nervous system1–7, it is conceivable that measurable body temperature changes accompany advanced meditative states. With the help of H.H. the Dalai Lama, we have investigated such a possibility on three practitioners of the advanced Tibetan Buddhist meditational practice known as g Tum-mo (heat) yoga living in Upper Dharamsala, India. We report here that in a study performed there in February 1981, we found that these subjects exhibited the capacity to increase the temperature of their fingers and toes by as much as 8.3°C."https://www.nature.com/articles/295234a0

Edited February 4, 2018 by windwalker

[dawei]

14 hours ago, windwalker said:

an article covering some of the questions 

 

http://www.ichikung.com/html/dantians.php

"Although the chakra systems are more significant in the Buddhist and Yogic traditions, both of these spiritual disciplines commonly refer to the Three Dantians areas in their energetic practice. According to ancient Buddhist and Yogic traditions, these three areas contain the three psychic knots or "Granthi" where an individual's energy and spiritual consciousness interact and manifest in particular ways."

 

 

Some might find the information useful...

 

That's Jerry Allan Johnson (JAJ) ...  his Medical Qigong program that I was in, before.   

 

it is useful but it is local mind/body stuff.   Even once they are felt as connected, then what is the next connection...  many transformations to come...

[gendao]

Another perspective claiming that the chakra model is quite arbitrary...while the dantian model is more naturally inherent:

Quote

1- The Chakra system is an imposed system that is NOT our natural state. It is a system to compartmentalize our energy for easy access to outsiders and energy vampires. This system has been in place for several Millennia and no one seems to question it, they have just (as I previously did) accepted it…(especially in the New Age Community.)

2- The chakras or "Cones" were placed there so that specific energies could be accessed. This easy access is ideal to control and manipulate our energy fields and minds. They were put there by ET's that view us as their personal energy source and property.

3- Our original state was to have energy that emits from our "Core" or Sun/Star in the Chest / Solar-Plexus area. Each individual has a slightly different wiring system that runs their energy which is custom designed to them. Personally, I have a triple helix energy system that runs up and down the center of my body and gets its source from the "Star/Sun" in the center. This triple helix has all the colors and more. When I need a certain energy, instead of accessing one isolated "chakra" energy like the heart or throat, it accesses them all and puts the appropriate balance of energies into what ever is needed (ie throat or voice energy) to handle what is required. This is a much more efficient and synergistic approach to accessing and moving energy. I have only been researching this for 2 months but I have not seen anyone else that had this triple helix so it might be unique to me. Most of the other FW-Indigo Knights that I have scanned have the intense Sun/Star light in their core and it emanates slightly differently than everyone else, like a snow flake. Sometimes the energy can pulse, sometimes it can spiral, sometimes it blasts, it just depends on what is needed or what is requested of it.

NOTE! -The Core/Heart-Sun/Star is the Center of a Triad…it is the Authentic Trinity! It has 2 counterparts: The Head = Brain/Pineal/Hypothalamus at one end, and The Loins = Creative Power Energy Centers on the other end. These three control centers, if working in harmony, without interference, can direct you into Super Consciousness! ...And THIS my friend, is a huge threat to the tyrannical overlords control program here in Dysfunction-Junction!

4- Our Core or Sun/Star is where our Higher Selves reside…and therefore the statement "God is inside of us, God is within" is literally true. Searching for a God outside of yourself will cause serious challenges. For instance; when you go to a new age meditation class, one of the first things they teach you is to "open your crown and bring the white or golden light down through your body, lighting up each chakra, and then ground into the earth. This may feel good momentarily, but think about what it is that you just did. If your "God" is inside of you, and you bring an "outside energy source" into your body and bypass your own "God" and ignore what was there to begin with……… continue to ignore it and bring in outside energy sources to take its place, what is it going to do? Well, remember the old "use it or lose it" philosophy? Yes, the "Core or God Sun/Star" will start to go dormant and just sit there until you decide to take your will back and use it again. Which energy would you rather be operating from and have command of, your own personal custom designed Authentic Source …or bring in some nebulous energy that could be infiltrated and run that through your body and all your electromagnetic systems?

 

Edited March 18, 2018 by gendao

[Bindi]

On 05/02/2018 at 10:42 AM, dawei said:

 

That's Jerry Allan Johnson (JAJ) ...  his Medical Qigong program that I was in, before.   

 

it is useful but it is local mind/body stuff.   Even once they are felt as connected, then what is the next connection...  many transformations to come...

 

The dantians are in the body though, there are no beyond body dantians. Shen is transformed into wuji in the upper dantian within the body. So unless you just jump straight to wuji, the local body dantians are a necessary process. 

 

 

[windwalker]

11 minutes ago, Bindi said:

 

The dantians are in the body though, there are no beyond body dantians. Shen is transformed into wuji in the upper dantian within the body. So unless you just jump straight to wuji, the local body dantians are a necessary process. 

 

 

You've been through the process?

[Bindi]

27 minutes ago, windwalker said:

You've been through the process?

 

No, but my experience so far persuades me that this perspective on the dantians is valid. 

[juan]

Hi. I stumbled upon this old thread, and I would like contributing with my two cents on this subject, which perplexed me for a time, explaining my current view of chakras and dantiens, that partially overlaps with these concepts, but is based on my own experience only.

 

IMHO, chakras and dantiens are descriptions of the same system, but at different levels of detail. To complicate things, when I read about chakras, the descriptions often mix two different levels of detail. As I perceive them, chakras are not single points, but constellations of eight peripheral points, with a ninth point in the middle. So the basic elements, IME, are these peripheral points, that appear in line and connected vertically along the spine, in the front, and also along two lateral lines and four extra vertical lines in between. Horizontal lines connect these groups of 8 + 1 points, or nodes, at different horizontal levels, that roughly correlate with the levels where the chakras are supposed to be.

 

These nodes work cooperatively, so firing a node helps and boosts the firing of neighbor nodes. By firing I mean inducing a feeling very similar to the familiar orgasm in ordinary life. And like ordinary orgasms, they are not something just imagined, these feelings are very real.

When eight peripheral nodes are fired, they induce a strong and different feeling in the central node. The exception (up to certain point) are the nodes located at the root and crown, which seem to fire spontaneously, but I later discovered that their “brightness” hides the activity of other nodes in its close vicinity.

 

So these constellations of 8+1 nodes would fit in the scheme of chakras, that would make the second level of detail. Only that I perceive not seven, but nine chakras, which correlate with the usual picture but with two “manipuras”, one below the navel and the other at the level of the diaphragm, and another extra chakra between vishuddi and ajna, with its central node just behind the soft palate.

 

When adjacent levels, or chakras, work together, they induce a general feeling of periphery vs. core, so the end feeling is that of a “radiant” periphery and an “absorbing” core. Feeling propagates in the periphery as fire in a forest, while feelings in the core seem to coalesce as bubbles in old lava lamps. This would make the third level of detail, with a clear distinction between “LDT” from root to diaphragm; “MDT” from diaphragm to neck, and “UDT” from neck to crown. These areas, when activated, have to do with what could be called “emotional feelings” i.e. Lust, Love and Joy, and things become more complicated. This would be the third level of detail, but eventually the three DTs merge into one single core and one single periphery.

 

This is just the description of what I perceive inside, but of course is not a prescription of what others might experience.

Cheers 

[tommyprotramp]

Dan is the Elixir and until you cultivate the Dan in your Tian you don't have a Dantian, but simply Tian - a Field.

Tians are fields, alchemical spaces in the body which don't exist anatomically, they exist only in the meditation realm, when you visualise them. From eastern point of view what you visualise is as real as what you can touch.

 

The aura/Qi field is a structured illusion which arises during your Qi Gazing.

When can you be sure that you are actually perceiving Qi as a visual phenomena - the purple field around the body, and not some vision disruption? When what you see is synchronized with what you feel. To feel a Qi is easy, to see a Qi is the next step, and seeing Qi is synchronized with feeling Qi. Seeing Qi is the basis of observation part of Chinese medicine, you observe auric colors on the patient's face - 5 colors of Chinese medicine.

 

Chakras... Did you heard about marmas? 

This is the Indian tradition of acupressure, acupuncture and dimmak. Marmas are used to do harm, and also to heal. They are part of Kalaripayattu and Ayurveda. The Indian sources provide some details about those vital points which you will not find in the Chinese sources.

Acupoints located both on the back and on the front of the body on vertical axis or Ren/Du meridians, are points where Yin and Yang cross over, exactly like Ida and Pingala cross Shushumna in yogic/tantric charts.

Pingala is solar = Yang, Ida is lunar = Yin.

Shushumna = Taiji Pole = Chong Mai.

Marma = Acupoint.

Kundalini = Yuanqi.

 

5 Vayus = Wuqi - 5 Breaths:

• Inspiration / Intake - Prāṇa-vāyu - Feiqì (Lung) - Both govern breathing in and receiving life force.
• Elimination / Root Energy - Apāna-vāyu - Shènqì (Kidney) - Downward energy: excretion, sexuality, rooting.
• Digestion / Transformation - Samāna-vāyu - Piqì (Spleen) - Centering and transformation of energy/substance.
• Expression / Ascent - Udāna-vāyu - Xinqì (Heart) - Upward fire of speech, consciousness, spirit.
• Circulation / Integration - Vyāna-vāyu - Ganqì (Liver) - Expansion, coordination, energy distribution throughout the body.

Chakra consists of the energy center located inside Shushumna/Taiji pole, Marma/Acupoint located on the back of the body and Kshetram located on the front of the body. Those Marmas/Acupoints/Kshetrams are connected directly to our 7 energy centers - Chakras.

Mahamarma - Back

Chakra - Inside

Kshetram/Mahamarma - Front

Lower Tian is where Jing/Ojas becomes a Qi/Prana. When it happens your Tian becomes a Dantian - The Elixir Field. 

Jing -> Qi is the first stage of forming your Elixir.

In the Middle Tian you refine your Qi/Prana until it becomes the Shen/Tejas - at this stage your Middle Tian becomes a Middle Dantian.

In the last stage of your Neidan/Alchemical work you refine your Shen/Tejas in the Upper Tian until it becomes one with the Xu - The Void. It happens thanks to Baihui or Sahasrara. Achieving this means that you formed your Elixir and became one with the Tao/Xu/Universe/God/Universal Consciousness.

 

Now compare this process to the way of Yogis, how progressing through each Chakra transforms you, what changes it allows to happen or which changes it causes.

 

Both Indian and Chinese methods have exactly the same goal, and are causing/allowing the same transformations/changes. The difference is a matter of different language and culture.

 

China and India often exchanged ideas on "yoga", medicine, metaphysics. What got lost from Chinese medicine because of it getting banned by Chinese government for some time, you will find in India and Tibet.

The 5 elements of Chinese medicine and the 5 elements of Ayurveda are both described in Yijing - The Book of Changes, the book which is a foundation of Chinese civilization, philosophy and science. 

Chinese 5 elements are Post-Heaven arrangement and 5 elements of Ayurveda are Pre-Heaven arrangement.

 

When Yijing traveled to the West through Silk Road it pawed a way for many scientific developments.

• Yijing -> Leibniz's binary system.
• Yijing -> Niel Bohr's model of atom consisting of protons (yang) and electrons (yin). Didn't you see a Yinyang symbol on his coat of arms?
• Yijing -> Einstein's E=mc² - based on Yijing's idea of Yin eternally transforming into Yang, and Yang into Yin. E=mc² describes energy eternally transforming into matter, and matter into energy. This equation finally was used by Oppenheimer to build the atomic bomb.

Yijing & DNA -> There are 64 hexagrams and 64 possible codons. And those codons have 64 possible types. DNA and Yijing use the same code to explain the rules of creating every organism in the universe. Coincidence?

 

Tantra = method, the practice part of the system.

So Neidan is one of Chinese Tantras on Chinese Yoga/Cultivation.

Daoyin = Hathayoga.

Qigong = Pranavidya - not only Pranayama.

 

There are many different sects of Taoism and most scriptures aren't translated into English, what's worse those scriptures are written using metaphors / code. Only Taoists know how to decode those scriptures and use them as a guide during Neidan, these are not textbooks, only guides. The how-to you get from your master when he decides you are ready.

What we get to read in English are only fragments. We don't get the full description of the system.

What Mantak Chia writes in his books is his own version of "Taoism" - a modern system specially crafted for the western mind.

What Nathan Brine wrote in his books is what he learned from his master. This is not a translation of actual Taoist scriptures. Nathan created Neidan textbooks based on what he learned, but how well it is represented, how authentic is it - that we can't verify. The sure thing is that he actually provides proper Taoist terms like Yinian which you wouldn't find in Mantak Chia's books or anywhere else before. Nathan wrote for us the first proper Neidan textbooks in English, but the quality of them we can only assess by ourselves through practicing meditations described in them. 

[Lairg]

Nice post

 

Note the picture of Fuxi and Nuwa:

 

- half serpent, half human like the Naga and like Osiris/Asar and Isis/Ast

 

- holding the square and compasses (used in the Freemasonry that looks to Isis - the Widow)  

 

Fuxi and Nuwa are brother and sister - like Asar and Ast

 

Just coincidence - or perhaps they have local namings

 

 

Edited 22 hours ago by Lairg