Is it possible to remain in the Non-dual state and function in the world?

[3bob]

but memory is only a mind trace, and a trace is in time.

[Tibetan_Ice]

By definition non-dual just means not two. Therefore non-duality can only appear when you are not, it isn't possible for "you" to be in non-duality because if you are there then there is two. So when people talk about themselves experiencing non-duality they can't be talking about non-duality in actuality.

Try this on for size... Non-duality can only appear when you are everything. That is the only time when there is no more individual identity. No more subject and object. They have become one.

Edited June 17, 2015 by Tibetan_Ice

[3bob]

...but supreme identity or Self knows itself as Self, aka non-dual.

 

which btw the duality of mind can not wrap itself around or know of beyond all doubts or dichotomy.

Edited June 17, 2015 by 3bob

[Tibetan_Ice]

...but supreme identity or Self knows itself as Self, aka non-dual.

 

which btw the duality of mind can not wrap itself around or know of beyond all doubts or dichotomy.

I sort of agree.... I've experienced that non-state seven times now, and the conceptual mind knows quite well what was occurring at the time. Its dissolution was not well received and once it regained a footing it tried many things to discount the events. Consider this, how does the dualistic conceptual mind know of nondualism in the first place? It learned about it after the fact, upon reflection, with no reference point. It was not the conceptual mind that became all things and knew it. It was something else, much much bigger...

[3bob]

Hello TI,

I'd say or add that after 'enough of certain kinds of facts' that the mind comes to know its place as servant (to Spirit) since its pervious strangle-hold as an ego based variation of master-hood has been so utterly cracked open by the truth of Spiirt that even it can no longer deny it's subordinate place - thus begins the end the internal ego war of quintessential doubt and fears.

 

Om

Edited June 17, 2015 by 3bob

[forestofemptiness]

Non-duality in some forms of Buddhism means "free from extremes." In Advaita it tends to mean not different from Brahman. These are two very different definitions. 

Although, given this definition of non-duality, where is it that the "you" ends? Where is the line between "you" and "not you"?

 

 

By definition non-dual just means not two. Therefore non-duality can only appear when you are not, it isn't possible for "you" to be in non-duality because if you are there then there is two. So when people talk about themselves experiencing non-duality they can't be talking about non-duality in actuality.

Edited June 17, 2015 by forestofemptiness

[Brian]

 

Sure. Do you have a different experience?

Not that I can remember...

[liminal_luke]

Get your salt shakers ready as I have no idea what I´m talking about....but it seems to me the whole point of experiencing non-duality is to bring that perspective back to this poor seemingly fragmented world.  I, for one, do not want to dwell in the oblivion of enlightenment forever.  Nor do I care to endlessly experience the pain and lonliness of eternal separateness.  I want to be a cosmic interpreter, a bridge between wu wei and the ten thousand things.

Edited June 17, 2015 by liminal_luke

[Jetsun]

Although, given this definition of non-duality, where is it that the "you" ends? Where is the line between "you" and "not you"?

 

In the ultimate sense there is no line.

 

Yet I think there has to be some sort of sense of individual I to function, but that sense of I can be very different than what the majority of people call their I which is ultimately existing mostly in the realm of imagination.

[3bob]

instead of  a line try to picture or envision a transformer that is connected and part of a circuit... or maybe a prism, for instance on one side is white light on the other are the main colors of the rainbow and all the sub-variations or mixes of same.

[Daeluin]

Get your salt shakers ready as I have no idea what I´m talking about....but it seems to me the whole point of experiencing non-duality is to bring that perspective back to this poor seemingly fragmented world.  I, for one, do not want to dwell in the oblivion of enlightenment forever.  Nor do I care to endlessly experience the pain and lonliness of eternal separateness.  I want to be a cosmic interpreter, a bridge between wu wei and the ten thousand things.

 

Yes!

 

Can a distinction be made between connecting wu wei to the ten-thousand, and connecting the ten-thousand to wu wei?

Sometimes I feel bringing emptiness to creation feeds further creation.

While guiding creation to wu wei unfolds by simply resting upon wu wei.

 

If we say "here it is!" we provide it like an apple to eat.

If we hide it deep within, we draw others to it, helping them to walk their own return.

[steve]

Its possible, the ego is likely to do its best to repress and deny such memories though.

What makes you say that?

Is it possible this is what is happening when people discuss experiences that they interpret as non-dual?

Resting in a non-dual state, there is no subject-object discrimination but does that mean that it cannot be experienced?

 

 

 

Sure. Do you have a different experience?

I don't really know what I experience to be honest.

There is a way of being which does not lend itself to description, conceptualization, or interpretation.

It is not uninterrupted. 

But what is it?

I really don't know what to say.

[Brian]

What makes you say that?

Is it possible this is what is happening when people discuss experiences that they interpret as non-dual?

Resting in a non-dual state, there is no subject-object discrimination but does that mean that it cannot be experienced?

 

 

 

I don't really know what I experience to be honest.

There is a way of being which does not lend itself to description, conceptualization, or interpretation.

It is not uninterrupted.

But what is it?

I really don't know what to say.

This is my perspective too, steve.

[Geof Nanto]

I don't really know what I experience to be honest.

There is a way of being which does not lend itself to description, conceptualization, or interpretation.

It is not uninterrupted. 

But what is it?

I really don't know what to say.

 

This sounds like a description of right-brain function as delineated by Iain McGilchrist......

 

Iain McGilchrist in his widely acclaimed brain hemisphere function thesis published as ‘The Master and His Emissary’ writes  "In one (right-brain), we experience - the live, complex, embodied, world of individual, always unique beings, forever in flux, a net of interdependencies, forming and reforming wholes, a world with which we are deeply connected. In the other (left-brain) we 'experience' our experience in a special way: a 're-presented' version of it, containing now static, separable, bounded, but essentially fragmented entities, grouped into classes on which predictions can be based......(Right-brain) is the way in which we all experience the world pre-reflectively, before we have had a chance to 'view' it at all.....These are not different ways of thinking about the world: they are different ways of being in the world."

 

Using this analogy, it's through right-brain function that we activate what's being called non-dual perception on this thread.  It's how we connect with mind of Dao. From a Daoist perspective McGilchrist's title could well be "The Mind of Dao and her Interpreter the Human Mind".   (Speaking personally, I don't like the term "non-dual" as it has so much cultural and tradition based baggage. And in a strict sense non-dual awareness is beyond the capabilities of us embodied humans, as has already been mentioned in this discussion.)  

[Jetsun]

What makes you say that?

Is it possible this is what is happening when people discuss experiences that they interpret as non-dual?

Resting in a non-dual state, there is no subject-object discrimination but does that mean that it cannot be experienced?

 

I'm not saying it can't be experienced, I am saying that it can't be experienced by an individual "I", if there is an "I" then there are two things going on therefore it is in duality.

 

Of course when using words it is difficult to know exactly what people mean when talking about this but if someone says that their individuated separate I experienced non-duality then by definition I don't think that can really be the case. There are all sorts of profound unitive meditation states one can experience where the level of ego can be incredibly subtle, but I wouldn't call them non-duality because they are still being experienced by separate someone.

 

I said the mind is likely to try repress such memories because the full implication of such a discovery means death to the separate ego, if non-duality is the underlying reality then the separate self can only exist as an illusion, which is a reality we are all denying and don't want to see. The mind has to work hard and deny and repress a lot to keep an illusion going, if light starts seeping through the cracks it has to work even harder. 

[steve]

I'm not saying it can't be experienced, I am saying that it can't be experienced by an individual "I", if there is an "I" then there are two things going on therefore it is in duality.

 

Of course when using words it is difficult to know exactly what people mean when talking about this but if someone says that their individuated separate I experienced non-duality then by definition I don't think that can really be the case. There are all sorts of profound unitive meditation states one can experience where the level of ego can be incredibly subtle, but I wouldn't call them non-duality because they are still being experienced by separate someone.

 

I said the mind is likely to try repress such memories because the full implication of such a discovery means death to the separate ego, if non-duality is the underlying reality then the separate self can only exist as an illusion, which is a reality we are all denying and don't want to see. The mind has to work hard and deny and repress a lot to keep an illusion going, if light starts seeping through the cracks it has to work even harder. 

 

Thanks for the reply.

[Geof Nanto]

I'm not saying it can't be experienced, I am saying that it can't be experienced by an individual "I", if there is an "I" then there are two things going on therefore it is in duality.

 

Of course when using words it is difficult to know exactly what people mean when talking about this but if someone says that their individuated separate I experienced non-duality then by definition I don't think that can really be the case. There are all sorts of profound unitive meditation states one can experience where the level of ego can be incredibly subtle, but I wouldn't call them non-duality because they are still being experienced by separate someone.

 

I said the mind is likely to try repress such memories because the full implication of such a discovery means death to the separate ego, if non-duality is the underlying reality then the separate self can only exist as an illusion, which is a reality we are all denying and don't want to see. The mind has to work hard and deny and repress a lot to keep an illusion going, if light starts seeping through the cracks it has to work even harder. 

 

I like what you've written and concur, with the exception of your final paragraph. For me, reality is multiple so I have no trouble accepting the reality of my separate ego. I don't find the reality / illusion dichotomy particularly helpful as for me awareness is both real and illusionary at the same time.  Awareness of a 'greater reality' certainly puts my ego in a secondary position though. (I'm using the term 'ego' in the sense of ego being the centre of my consciousness, rather than the more popular connotation of an inflated sense of self.)  Accepting the secondary role of my individual ego allows an expansion of my sense of self. 

 

However, I agree that we human's fight to keep our ego centre-stage. For me, the degree of surrender I've achieved has been hard won through my defeats in life over decades. On this spiritual path the hero must die.

 

From Leonard Cohen.......

 

Roshi said something nice to me one time. He said that the older you get, the lonelier you become, and the deeper the love you need. Which means that this hero that you're trying to maintain as the central figure in the drama of your life—this hero is not enjoying the life of a hero. You're exerting a tremendous maintenance to keep this heroic stance available to you, and the hero is suffering defeat after defeat. And they're not heroic defeats; they're ignoble defeats. Finally, one day you say, "Let him die—I can't invest any more in this heroic position.”

Edited June 18, 2015 by Yueya

[Tibetan_Ice]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nondualism

[Silent Answers]

We have to realise that we have a special position in all of this. We have the power to choose; to come and go. Most posters are right, even though their views may seem to conflict. The main issue is with defining the degrees of such states. But there is no rigid rule system.

 

For exmaple:

 

Dive right into the depths of "it" and You will eventually get lost, the deeper you go...not necessarily a bad thing. This is the true return, but as long as you still have stuff to do in the world - perhaps it's not such a good idea. You can(italic) find the way back, but it may grow increasingly hard as the markers you left along the way have been eroded with time.

 

Choose to have a look around the reefs in shallower waters, and you will have your mind blown with new realisations, while still holding onto enough identity to enjoy it all. From here it's an easy transition back.

 

 

There are varying degrees of the experience, most of which are not entirely permanent. They build up and retain little by little. That all depends on how far the You takes it.

 

Nobody could really want to remain in such a deep non-dual state of mind, for when it is possible, there is no desire left to do so. At this point, there is no you, and the choice is no more.

 

Coming back to the question again then, yes we can be in a non-dual state of mind and still function in the world. However, if the You doesn't "come up for air" once in a while...that part will likely fade.

 

P.S. Please treat the above as a personal rambling, rather than somebody who thinks he knows what's up

Edited June 18, 2015 by Silent Answers

[Bindi]

This sounds like a description of right-brain function as delineated by Iain McGilchrist......

 

Iain McGilchrist in his widely acclaimed brain hemisphere function thesis published as ‘The Master and His Emissary’ writes  "In one (right-brain), we experience - the live, complex, embodied, world of individual, always unique beings, forever in flux, a net of interdependencies, forming and reforming wholes, a world with which we are deeply connected. In the other (left-brain) we 'experience' our experience in a special way: a 're-presented' version of it, containing now static, separable, bounded, but essentially fragmented entities, grouped into classes on which predictions can be based......(Right-brain) is the way in which we all experience the world pre-reflectively, before we have had a chance to 'view' it at all.....These are not different ways of thinking about the world: they are different ways of being in the world."

 

Using this analogy, it's through right-brain function that we activate what's being called non-dual perception on this thread.  It's how we connect with mind of Dao. From a Daoist perspective McGilchrist's title could well be "The Mind of Dao and her Interpreter the Human Mind".   (Speaking personally, I don't like the term "non-dual" as it has so much cultural and tradition based baggage. And in a strict sense non-dual awareness is beyond the capabilities of us embodied humans, as has already been mentioned in this discussion.)  

 

This concept is an interesting take on ways of experiencing the world, perhaps finding ourselves trapped on the left side, and trying to find a way to at least visit the right side, and then perhaps ultimately to incorporate the right side into our lived experience.

[Geof Nanto]

 

This concept is an interesting take on ways of experiencing the world, perhaps finding ourselves trapped on the left side, and trying to find a way to at least visit the right side, and then perhaps ultimately to incorporate the right side into our lived experience.

 

Generally speaking, I'm not overly fond of brain theory but I make an exception for McGilchrist's work. I was introduced to his brain hemisphere theories via an interview a few years back on Australia'a Radio National. You can download the podcast or read the full transcript here.

 

http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/allinthemind/the-master-and-his-emissary-the-divided-brain-and/3047408#transcript

 

According to McGilchrist (and many others) our contemporary world has become dangerously dominated by left-brain type perception resulting in "an increasingly fragmented, decontextualised world marked by unwarranted optimism mixed with the feeling of emptiness". Of course both hemispheres need to work together but according to Iain the right hemisphere allows us to feel direct connection with the world and therefore should be primary.

 

I've found McGilchrist's insights extremely helpful for deepening my Daoist based praxis. Really, I go so far as to say this is essential knowledge for anyone on a spiritual path.  Since I've learnt of his theory it's become obvious to me that the traditional methods of both Buddhist and Daoist cultivation have the effect of enhancing right-brain function. 

Edited June 19, 2015 by Yueya

[voidisyinyang]

you get to the pineal gland via the right brain but through the pineal gland - the Cavity of Prenatal Vitality (Yuan Qi) is the connection to nondualism made - well actually it's the heart as the united origin of Yuan Shen-Yuan Qi. But the point being it is the pineal gland that creates a nondual connection as it is the emanation of the heart energy - and so when you see light outside your body - that is your qi energy connecting to the universal light energy that is the Oneness....

[Yasjua]

I thought the point of non-dual realization was for all and everything to ascend to meet and attain the quality of the infinite. I don't see why that state would interfere with putting a fork in your mouth, stopping at a red light, or getting some exercise now and then. It sounds to me like others are talking about a trance state of sorts - something unmistakably spiritual and profound, but reflecting a surge or push of consciousness out of its ordinary confines, rather than a thorough and holistic assimilation of duality into the recognition of spirit as all.

 

IMO Stephen Jourdain was in such a state (probably since the age of 16 or so into old age and death):

 

 

Edited June 20, 2015 by Yasjua

[C T]

Everything is already in the non-dual state. It is the attachment of selfish thoughts and motives to things that create a seeming duality, isn't that so? As the 'me' arise, so does 'not me' arise. Each dependently co-arising. imo

[Marblehead]

Everything is already in the non-dual state. It is the attachment of selfish thoughts and motives to things that create a seeming duality, isn't that so? As the 'me' arise, so does 'not me' arise. Each dependently co-arising. imo

I wonder how many people will understand what you just said.