Living Life is a totally misconstrued taoist concept

[tulku]

I never mentioned me being a Daoist. I reject all labels especially authoritarian religious and spiritual belief systems.

I did however say I was a cultivator of the Dao.

How do you know of my level of neigong cultivation.

Or of who I have met and have acquaintances with.

Or of my meditation practice.

What Daoist books have I read that you speak of ?

I have no interest in becoming enlightened. Only to live a long, happy and healthy life, and to enjoy that life with my family.

I have no intention to make you laugh, only to advise you that my lifestyle makes me happy, regardless of your viewpoint.

 

Of course, the sacrifices required of a human being to reach permanent samadhi are too great. It is not something which the average human can easily accomplish.

[C T]

 

 

Searching? I have already found what I need. Samadhi.

 

You on the other hand don't even know what you are searching for.

 

What is there to search for? Its already present. Open your heart, open your eyes and see, and listen. One mind, many windows. Depending on where you are in a house, the view is different. If everyone crowds into your room at your behest, to see the view from your window, you will either get suffocated or worse, get trampled to pulp.

 

True samadhi is when you can be at peace wherever you find yourself. When you can be at peace with this imperfect vessel called 'self', and then see non-identification with this limited imperfect self, that is what true samadhi means... even the saints and the highest attained yogis, even Buddha for that matter, cannot achieve more than this. The difference is where one strives to find perfection, the other already sees the essence of the perfected nature in all things.

 

 

Read this and take it to heart - -

 

"The everyday practice of Dzogchen is simply to develop a complete carefree acceptance, an openness to all situations without limit. We can try to realize openness as the playground of our emotions and relate to people without artificiality, manipulation, or strategy.

 

We can try to experience everything totally, never withdrawing into ourselves as a marmot hides in its hole. This practice releases tremendous energy which is usually constricted by the process of maintaining fixed reference points.

 

Referentiality is the process by which we retreat from the direct experience of everyday life. Being present in the moment may initially trigger fear. But by welcoming the sensation of fear with complete openness, we cut through the barriers created by habitual emotional patterns.

 

When we engage in the practice of discovering space, we should develop the feeling of opening ourselves out completely to the entire universe.

 

We should open ourselves with absolute simplicity and nakedness of mind. This is the powerful and ordinary practice of dropping the mask of self-protection.

 

We should realize that the purpose of contemplation is not to go 'deeply into ourselves', or withdraw from the world. Practice should be free and non-conceptual, unconstrained by introspection and concentration.

 

Vast unoriginated self-luminous wisdom space is the ground of being ~ the beginning and the end of confusion. The presence of awareness in the primordial state has no bias toward enlightenment or non-enlightenment.

 

This ground of being which is known as pure or original mind is the source from which all phenomena arise.

 

It is known as the great mother, the womb of potentiality in which all things arise and dissolve in natural self-perfectedness and absolute spontaneity.

 

All aspects of phenomena are completely clear and lucid. The whole universe is open and unobstructed ~ everything is mutually interpenetrating. Seeing all things as naked, clear and free from obscurations, there is nothing to attain or realize.

 

The nature of phenomena appears naturally and is naturally present in time-transcending awareness. Everything is naturally perfect just as they are. All phenomena appear in their uniqueness as part of the continually changing pattern.

 

These patterns are vibrant with meaning and significance at every moment; yet there is no significance to attach to such meanings beyond the moment in which they present themselves.

 

This is the dance of the 5 elements in which matter is a symbol of energy and energy a symbol of emptiness. We are a symbol of our own enlightened state. With no effort or practice whatsoever, liberation or enlightenment is already here.

 

The everyday practice of Dzogchen is just everyday life itself. Since the undeveloped state does not exist, there is no need to behave in any special way or attempt to attain anything above and beyond what you actually are. There should be no feeling of striving to reach some amazing goal or 'advanced state'.

To strive for such a state is a neurosis which only conditions us and serves to obstruct the free flow of Mind. We should also avoid thinking of ourselves as worthless persons ~ we are naturally free and unconditioned. We are intrinsically enlightened and lack nothing.

 

When engaging in meditation practice, we should feel it to be as natural as eating, breathing and defecating. It should not become a specialized or formal event, bloated with seriousness and solemnity.

 

We should realize that meditation transcends effort, practice, aims, goals and the duality of liberation and non-liberation. Meditation is always ideal; there is no need to correct anything.

 

Since everything that arises is simply the play of mind as such, there is no unsatisfactory meditation and no need to judge thoughts as good or bad. Therefore we should simply sit.

 

Simply stay in your own place, in your own condition just as it is. Forgetting self-conscious feelings, we do not have to think, 'I am meditating'.

 

If we have interesting experiences either during or after meditation, we should avoid making anything special of them. To spend time thinking about experiences is simply a distraction and an attempt to become unnatural. These experiences are simply signs of practice and should be regarded as transient events.

 

We should not attempt to re-experience them because to do so only serves to distort the natural spontaneity of mind. All phenomena are completely new and fresh, absolutely unique and entirely free from all concepts of past, present and future.

 

They are experienced in timelessness. The continual stream of new discovery, revelation and inspiration which arises at every moment is the manifestation of our clarity. We should learn to see everyday life as mandala ~ the luminous fringes of experience which radiate spontaneously from the empty nature of our mind.

 

The aspects of our mandala are the day-to-day objects of our life experience moving in the dance or play of the universe.

 

By this symbolism the inner teacher reveals the profound and ultimate significance of being. Therefore we should be natural and spontaneous, accepting and learning from everything.

 

This enables us to see the ironic and amusing side of events that usually irritate us. In meditation, we can see through the illusions of past, present and future ~ our experience becomes the continuity of nowness. The past is only an unreliable memory held in the present. The future is only a projection of our present conceptions. The present itself vanishes as soon as we try to grasp it.

 

So why bother with attempting to establish or maintain the illusion of solid ground? We should free ourselves from past memories and preconceptions of meditation.

 

Each moment of meditation is completely unique and full of potentiality. In such moments, we will be incapable of judging our meditative efforts in terms of past experience, dry theory or hollow rhetoric. Simply plunging directly into meditation in the moment now, with our whole being, free from hesitation, boredom or excitement, is enlightenment."

(Words of Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche, taken from 'Dzogchen Practice in Everyday Life')

 

I do hope you know who Dilgo Khyentse is?

Edited August 23, 2011 by CowTao

[~riverflow]

Read this and take it to heart...

 

Thank you for posting that, CowTao. Its amazing how much Dzogchen resembles Soto Zen practice!

[C T]

A 6-minute talk by Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche to re-emphasize what Dilgo Khyentse said -

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1e_DijCSRvM&feature=related

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

 

Hi Josh,

 

Yes, i agree... without the big words and exotic references, beneath the veneer of discerning high and low, advanced or mediocre, we simply allow the coming and going of awakened and sleep consciousness. Just different windows. Lends flavor, the different views. Yet, that which experiences the different views is but one empty source.

 

In daytime, we see and feel the sun's light and heat, the clouds, and sometimes, with rain and light, rainbows appear... in the coolness of the night, we see the moon, the stars, the iridescent quality of glowing planets reflecting light, yet, when we sit back in ease, without forceful and directed thoughts on all the luminous appearances of these various displays, they are all present, at all times. Day and night, light and dark, this and that, is nothing but ungraspable consciousness at play, or at rest...

 

Ease of mind in each and every arising and allowing for cessations, seeing nakedly into the empty ground where all thoughts manifest, and learning to rest there habitually... no practice higher than simply this.

[Ambrose_Bierce]

There is a reason why so many masters of all spiritual traditions renunciate.

 

It is because the pollution of the material world cloud their senses.

 

They become masters because they were able to achieve a permanent state of samadhi, something which is not easily done if your senses are clouded by the material world.

 

This is why they are called masters and not because of their other life experiences or because they get along well with people bla bla bla.

 

Searching? I have already found what I need. Samadhi.

 

You on the other hand don't even know what you are searching for.

 

This is why I say your words are both arrogant and ignorant.

 

I appriciate very much your reposting. Your second post let me understand a bit more of where you are comming from.

 

You seem to have ignored that people are a comination of their experiences also. Spiritual teaching only has an affect on the current state of being and doing. Spiritual learning and teaching does not comprise the whole. The reason why is a person could do all the healthful eating and cultivation practices and eat junkfood and still die when they are 35. On the flip side there is the Master that has for reasons unknown eaten all the right healthy foods, the right cultivation and lives for an extended period of time. This is what I mean, I did not explain this.

 

Samadhi is a state of knowing and feeling. I simply innately know what is decent and unmeretricious. If you cant enter that in the current world which has changed how are you going to do that later? The part forgotten is todays world is different. There are distractions so you have to adapt.

 

Your last sentance explains it all:

 

This is why I say your words are both arrogant and ignorant.

 

Simple, yet you have missed it because you are NEW to the scene. Masters that have only taught me true profundity are generally nonjudgemental. Your words are simply venemous angry and you mean to dominate. Domination is really the only thing that is the dark path. Anger itself happens and must be released. When we seek to exert power over others we try to dominate. This is how the dark side wins converts because injustice only fosters more of the same. So, youve released something here: Your judgement, your anger, your ignorance and your attempt to dominate through those three.

 

You have broken the rules of the systems you seek to "defend". How could you ever have someone learn from you without being tainted by the same?

 

For a Simple Definition of Samadhi:

Taken from WikiPedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samadhi

It has been described as a non-dualistic state of consciousness in which the consciousness of the experiencing subject becomes one with the experienced object,[1] and in which the mind becomes still, one-pointed or concentrated[2] while the person remains conscious. In Buddhism, it can also refer to an abiding in which mind becomes very still but does not merge with the object of attention, and is thus able to observe and gain insight into the changing flow of experience.

[steve]

I am looking to evolve myself into a higher level of being than the rest of the ignorant masses out there?

 

Am I in a lot of pain? When I see how the masses are unconsciously being tortured by their desires, hardly.

What sort of being do you intend to be? Something other than human?

The brain is wired to always look to become something other than it is - this gives us an enormous survival advantage.

It also creates a huge psychological burden.

Samahdi is to see through that and let go the "be-coming" and simply "be"

The great evolution is to be what you already are.

 

It seems that you are being tortured by the desires of others... curious.

I think you are being tortured by your own desires and projecting.

Desire can be overwhelming and painful.

Fighting against it tends to reinforce and magnify it's power.

Seeing through it robs it of power.

 

I do understand your earlier point, tulku. There are many folks who use New Age spirituality as an excuse to indulge themselves.

That is not the same as living one's life fully without denying oneself and yet without indulging.

Daoism advocates a balanced life. No one laughs more deeply and satisfyingly than a Buddha.

This is completely consistent with a worldly life as well as a sequestered life.

It is not a matter of struggling against desire but understanding it.

Try it.

[tulku]

.

Edited September 8, 2011 by Mal
copyrighted material removed

[tulku]

I appriciate very much your reposting. Your second post let me understand a bit more of where you are comming from.

 

You seem to have ignored that people are a comination of their experiences also. Spiritual teaching only has an affect on the current state of being and doing. Spiritual learning and teaching does not comprise the whole. The reason why is a person could do all the healthful eating and cultivation practices and eat junkfood and still die when they are 35. On the flip side there is the Master that has for reasons unknown eaten all the right healthy foods, the right cultivation and lives for an extended period of time. This is what I mean, I did not explain this.

 

Samadhi is a state of knowing and feeling. I simply innately know what is decent and unmeretricious. If you cant enter that in the current world which has changed how are you going to do that later? The part forgotten is todays world is different. There are distractions so you have to adapt.

 

Your last sentance explains it all:

 

 

 

Simple, yet you have missed it because you are NEW to the scene. Masters that have only taught me true profundity are generally nonjudgemental. Your words are simply venemous angry and you mean to dominate. Domination is really the only thing that is the dark path. Anger itself happens and must be released. When we seek to exert power over others we try to dominate. This is how the dark side wins converts because injustice only fosters more of the same. So, youve released something here: Your judgement, your anger, your ignorance and your attempt to dominate through those three.

 

You have broken the rules of the systems you seek to "defend". How could you ever have someone learn from you without being tainted by the same?

 

For a Simple Definition of Samadhi:

Taken from WikiPedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samadhi

It has been described as a non-dualistic state of consciousness in which the consciousness of the experiencing subject becomes one with the experienced object,[1] and in which the mind becomes still, one-pointed or concentrated[2] while the person remains conscious. In Buddhism, it can also refer to an abiding in which mind becomes very still but does not merge with the object of attention, and is thus able to observe and gain insight into the changing flow of experience.

 

you hardly understand my words..

 

desire itself is hardly painful..

 

it is the control itself which is painful..

 

if you wish to be herded like a farm animal for the rest of your life, continue to indulge in your senses as you please..

 

i have always been someone who believes that the only being who can control my being is the Creator himself..

 

no other god, no other dimensional being and certainly no other human is qualified to control my being..

[Everything]

Two monks were traveling together, an older monk and a younger monk. They noticed a young woman at the edge of a stream, afraid to cross. The older monk picked her up, carried her across the stream and put her down safely on the other side. The younger monk was astonished, but he didn't say anything until their journey was over. "Why did you carry that woman across the stream? Monks aren't supposed to touch any member of the opposite sex." said the younger monk. The older monk replied "I left her at the edge of the river, are you still carrying her?"

That is a very beautiful story! Thanks for sharing it, riverflow.

 

I think the carying of another child or person is symbol of love. The thing about this story that fascinates me is the dropping of a person that I have difficulties with aswell. Just as the boy has. It is not just a physical boundlessness, but mental one as well. It is hard to remain boundless, hand out all the love of the world, yet respect the boundaries of others. To understand that we cannot open uo a flower when it is not yet ready to be opened. We must equally let go of those who are ready to close up, when their time has come. Everythig has its time.

 

I wonder why Monks are not allowed to have sex with the opposite gender, and priests as well. It is confusing to me.

[konchog uma]

I wonder why Monks are not allowed to have sex with the opposite gender, and priests as well. It is confusing to me.

 

i think monasteries are such closed societies that the politics, distractions to practice, and other valid concerns have popped up across many monastic traditions. its just most effective to say that one must be a renunciate to cultivate the monastic path than try to deal with the madness that must ensue from sexual relationships.

 

it would be more confusing to you if you were a priest and you had to keep track of who was with who and who just broke up and he said she said and so on. it makes sense to me, and more importantly, it makes sense to a lot of monks and priests.

[Simple_Jack]

CowTao...like the post. Especially these sentences:

 

"It is known as the great mother, the womb of potentiality in which all things arise and dissolve in natural self-perfectedness and absolute spontaneity."

 

"All aspects of phenomena are completely clear and lucid. The whole universe is open and unobstructed ~ everything is mutually interpenetrating. Seeing all things as naked, clear and free from obscurations, there is nothing to attain or realize."

 

The above part reminds me of this saying by Andzom Rinpoche: "The primordial nature of being is not grounded substantially in any reality; it is of the very nature of spontaneous presence."

 

"They are experienced in timelessness. The continual stream of new discovery, revelation and inspiration which arises at every moment is the manifestation of our clarity. We should learn to see everyday life as mandala ~ the luminous fringes of experience which radiate spontaneously from the empty nature of our mind."

 

"The aspects of our mandala are the day-to-day objects of our life experience moving in the dance or play of the universe.

 

"By this symbolism the inner teacher reveals the profound and ultimate significance of being. Therefore we should be natural and spontaneous, accepting and learning from everything."

 

When all phenomenal appearances that arise are the meditation, then we can talk of being natural and spontaneous. Spontaneity is clarity.

[Simple_Jack]

Also these quotes: "This enables us to see the ironic and amusing side of events that usually irritate us. In meditation, we can see through the illusions of past, present and future ~ our experience becomes the continuity of nowness. The past is only an unreliable memory held in the present. The future is only a projection of our present conceptions. The present itself vanishes as soon as we try to grasp it."

 

"So why bother with attempting to establish or maintain the illusion of solid ground? We should free ourselves from past memories and preconceptions of meditation."

 

Remind me of stanza 21 from the Hua Hu Ching: "Each moment is fragile and fleeting. The moment of the past cannot be kept, however beautiful. The moment of the present cannot be held, however enjoyable. The moment of the future cannot be caught, however desirable. But the mind is desperate to fix the river in place: Possessed by ideas of the past, preoccupied with images of the future, it overlooks the plain truth of the moment. The one who can dissolve her mind will suddenly discover the Tao at her feet, and clarity at hand."

 

Who say's that at the highest levels, there aren't similarities between Taoism and Buddhism?

[Aaron]

I am reticent to enter this thread, but I thought I might share some of my reflections on this topic. First, from a Taoist viewpoint, moderation is suggested. John C. H. Wu refers to it as frugality, one of the three jewels. The fact of the matter is that many people seem to want to take this concept to extremes, as well as out of context. Frugality doesn't mean to deprive one's self, but rather to be moderate, not to over indulge.

 

Frugality has practical applications as well, in that it allows one to interact with minimal interference in their fellow man's lives. One should not misinterpret this as abstinence or stoicism though, since that is not it at all.

 

And now I will share how I view this topic. If one has a desire and carrying out that desire harms no one, including themselves, then not carrying out that desire is harm in itself, because it causes the person to suffer. Do what you want, so long as you and no one else suffers. Be aware of your actions and the effects they have on others. Do not say one thing is good and another bad simply because someone says it is good or bad, but rather examine the action and judge for yourself.

 

If one can view their actions for what they really are, then their desires will be diminished and they will not suffer as a result. Until that time, do not restrict yourself, simply because others tell you to. Enjoy life as much as you can, especially if you are suffering. If you are on the right path, there will be a time when you will cease to do things simply because you desire to and instead do them because they are what needs to be done.

 

One should strive not to be a burden to others or themselves.

 

Aaron

Edited September 1, 2011 by Twinner

[NeiChuan]

To Enjoy life isn't to have attachments.

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

The only difference between taoism and buddhism is in name.

 

The enjoyment of things prevent the cultivation on non-dualism and non-attachment of the mind.

 

Even the master taoist sages will retreat to caves when attempting the pinnacle of spiritual cultivation.

 

Check out Wudang, Emei and other taoist sects in China which seclude themselves in the mountains. Why do you think is so?

 

Why aren't most taoist masters enjoying life in the cities if it doesn't hinder anything?

 

 

The only difference between bhuddism and taoism is the personification of a deity

 

Even the master taoist sages emerge from retreat in caves.

 

Why not?

 

Because they have risen above the need to partake, through experiences which include indulgence

[Everything]

To Enjoy life isn't to have attachments.

I´ve thought about that, I found it to be 50% true and 50% false. Depending on the context.

 

For example, we can love someone, and let go when he/she is gone. This way we had fun and lived our lifes but did not attach for ever.

 

On the other hand, we cannot love someone if we do not attach.

 

To enjoy life is not to attach to it for ever. To enjoy life is to attach to life, tranquility is to detach from it again. That is how I view things. It really depends on what attachments means to you. I think its simply accepting, being open to, and being one with. Kinda like love. I view love as an attachments. If someone slaps you in the face while you're attached to him or her, you detach again in order act with wisdom and not impsulively with a muddled mind, blinded by love.

 

You can speak with family, detached, for ages. Nothing will result. Only intellectual conversations. Real love is about physical and emotional openness and sharing. The words are just an extra fun tool to play with here. so in a way, enjoyment of life does involve detachment from words.

 

Anyone noticed how someone who over analyzes and takes words so seriously or such fun killers? They are closed, detached, like a robot. This hurts people, not because they do not speak of truth, but exactly because they speak of truth while they should be speaking of love.

Edited September 1, 2011 by Everything

[Jeff]

 

On the other hand, we cannot love someone if we do not attach.

 

 

True love is a giving. Attachment is the expectation or desire for something in return.

 

[C T]

Attachments, which is the root creative instinct for anger and hatred, arise from surrendering control of one's emotional impulses. These emotional impulses are all related to grasping and aversion, which in turn are tied to being overly dependent on the sensate realm of existence. The antidote is the development of Equanimity. Equanimity is not to be devoid of passion ~ its the practice of cultivating perfect mindfulness so as not to be enslaved and/or ruled by one's emotions.

 

Its clear there are many on this forum who have transcended, or are already in the dynamic, positive process of transcending this dependency.

 

This is indeed heartwarming to see.

 

 

 

A good article that speaks about 'Attachments' -

http://archive.thebuddhadharma.com/issues/2009/fall/ask_the_teachers.php

[Stigweard]

To Enjoy life isn't to have attachments.

Well if we didn't have attachments our arms would fall off wouldn't they??

 

[Marblehead]

Well if we didn't have attachments our arms would fall off wouldn't they??

 

 

And that one leg of yours that you have raised in that beautiful crane position would fall off too!

[Everything]

True love is a giving. Attachment is the expectation or desire for something in return.

 

When I think of attachment, I think of the mother that holds on to her baby because she has never felt greater love then this. She gives milk to her attached child. The baby, beings open and vulnerable knows no more then love also. The baby has a strong grasp and attaches to the mother or anyone who holds him. Attachment is really part of love in my view.

 

The thing about a mature relationship is the ability to detach and respect the individual and trust it, so that at the end of the day you can both return to love and attachment. During love and passion, usually people do not talk about business for example. Business puts people in a detached mindset from which love is uncomfortable, vulnerable, not safe.

 

 

True love is not just giving. Giving is called INFATUATION. True love is a giving and receiving of happiness. True love is about sharing. When two people attach to eachother, hugging. They are connected, so they can share, exchange. For example, the man can put some seeds in the women and a baby comes out, which shall be the greatest gift for both of their lifes.

[Jeff]

When I think of attachment, I think of the mother that holds on to her baby because she has never felt greater love then this. She gives milk to her attached child. The baby, beings open and vulnerable knows no more then love also. The baby has a strong grasp and attaches to the mother or anyone who holds him. Attachment is really part of love in my view.

 

The thing about a mature relationship is the ability to detach and respect the individual and trust it, so that at the end of the day you can both return to love and attachment. During love and passion, usually people do not talk about business for example. Business puts people in a detached mindset from which love is uncomfortable, vulnerable, not safe.

 

True love is not just giving. Giving is called INFATUATION. True love is a giving and receiving of happiness. True love is about sharing. When two people attach to eachother, hugging. They are connected, so they can share, exchange. For example, the man can put some seeds in the women and a baby comes out, which shall be the greatest gift for both of their lifes.

 

I think your example of a mother is a good one... She gives love with no expectations of a return exchange. She just gives it.

 

If you expect (or desire) something in return, it is conditional and not freely given.

[tulku]

The only difference between bhuddism and taoism is the personification of a deity

 

Even the master taoist sages emerge from retreat in caves.

 

Why not?

 

Because they have risen above the need to partake, through experiences which include indulgence

 

yes

 

yet there are too many in here who mistakenly think that the real meaning of taoism is to indulge one's senses in the experiences of life

[Apech]

Well if we didn't have attachments our arms would fall off wouldn't they??

 

 

I find I can't use my vacuum cleaner without attachments ... am I doomed????

[Marblehead]

yet there are too many in here who mistakenly think that the real meaning of taoism is to indulge one's senses in the experiences of life

 

So what else is there to do with this life I have been afforded than to live it? To utilize my senses? To observe, and experience this beautiful creation?

 

Ah! What a wonderful life!