Living Life is a totally misconstrued taoist concept

[tulku]

 

They don't believe that. In fact, I know that they believe and teach the exact opposite. They teach that in order to achieve the Tao, one should enjoy life, be a functioning, participating part of society and practice your Tao in moderation.

 

I am reminded of the definition of Critical Thinking I reposted from wikipedia which says,

 

(Critical thinking) is a way of deciding whether a claim is true, false, or sometimes true and sometimes false, or partly true and partly false.

 

If I apply critical thinking to your statements here Tulku, I find them lacking. There is truth to your statements. What I find characteristically un-Taoist and un-Buddhists about your thought process and communication is that it lacks an understanding that things can be both true and untrue or true in certain circumstances.

 

Look who's talking. In your own words, " the tao is about enjoying life, be a functioning/participating part of society and practicing your tao in moderation".

 

MODS! I would like to report this blatant piece of DISINFO! LOL!

[tulku]

Oh!, you poor little deprived Taoist/Buddhist/whateverish.

 

Don't even look at women. WoW!

 

I think you might reconsider that statement about practicing what you preach.

 

I look at women with emptiness and a non-discerning eye.

[tulku]

btw i would like to thank all who participated in this thread.. even the negative responses had been very educational and entertaining..

 

today, i had cleared a few confusions about which way i should go.. the more i clear my mind, the clearer my path and the stronger my conviction ..

[fiveelementtao]

Look who's talking. In your own words, " the tao is about enjoying life, be a functioning/participating part of society and practicing your tao in moderation".

 

MODS! I would like to report this blatant piece of DISINFO! LOL!

 

Yes? and how is that disinfo exactly? I have been very consistent about that?

Tulku, I am happy to have a discussion with you (if that is what you want). But, I don't understand your point. How am I giving disinfo here?

[Marblehead]

I look at women with emptiness and a non-discerning eye.

 

Yea! I squeezed a little bit of truth out of him but I think he is still holding back on us.

 

We'll see how it goes.

[Marblehead]

btw i would like to thank all who participated in this thread.. even the negative responses had been very educational and entertaining..

 

today, i had cleared a few confusions about which way i should go.. the more i clear my mind, the clearer my path and the stronger my conviction ..

 

Hey. That's why most of us are here - to learn from each other.

[AЯAB]

One of the first things I ever read about Taoism was that those who speak don't know,yet here we all are trying to defend our views by speaking about what we "think" we know. I have enjoyed reading all your views during this post, even the one who started it all...Tulku XD. I understand where Tulku is coming from and I'm sure you all felt the same way once. To me it looks like he is exicted what the new things he has learned so he has come here to share them with you all. He believes greatly In the things he says just like we all do so he is no different than us. This whole topic is something we can all learn from, the lesson is yours to choose. Much love to all of you, my brothas and sistas (:

[tulku]

One of the first things I ever read about Taoism was that those who speak don't know,yet here we all are trying to defend our views by speaking about what we "think" we know. I have enjoyed reading all your views during this post, even the one who started it all...Tulku XD. I understand where Tulku is coming from and I'm sure you all felt the same way once. To me it looks like he is exicted what the new things he has learned so he has come here to share them with you all. He believes greatly In the things he says just like we all do so he is no different than us. This whole topic is something we can all learn from, the lesson is yours to choose. Much love to all of you, my brothas and sistas (:

 

The things which I know are not new to me. It is just that I gathered a new different level of perspective on things which I already know.

[tulku]

Yes? and how is that disinfo exactly? I have been very consistent about that?

Tulku, I am happy to have a discussion with you (if that is what you want). But, I don't understand your point. How am I giving disinfo here?

 

This is the true meaning of the Tao, Dzogchen, Mahamudra, Gnosis, etc etc.

 

 

Taoism is certainly not about enjoying life, be a functioning/participating part of society or practicing your tao in moderation.

 

That isn't Taoism. That is Sociology.

[Lucky7Strikes]

@ Tulku

 

You are just advocating path of renunciation (like Hinayana or monastic daoism) . There are other paths, of transformation like in the tantras or the direct methods of dzogchen and mahamudra. Also cultivation masters get married, they don't look at women like a piece of "void." Household yogins are not any better or worse than monastics. Its just different life styles that fit different individuals.

 

And imo, you are getting this whole thing backwards. If you suppress desires or the sense pleasures to transcend them, that is the longer path. You'd have to go about eliminating each attachment one by one as they are lodged in deeper. Renunciation comes naturally if you are at that stage and indulgence can be appropriate at time. In my experience, observing yourself is the key to know what's appropriate. Seems like you are just hot headed for some romanticized idea of renunciation, if you force things your efforts might backfire.

 

p.s. 90 minute vipassaa session is something to boast about?

[Lucky7Strikes]

That isn't Taoism. That is Sociology.

Ok, that's not sociology. Sociology is an academic study of society.

 

You might want to read a bit more about taoism and buddhism before you start criticizing other people's way of practice to color your own.

[steve]

If you suppress desires or the sense pleasures to transcend them, that is the longer path. You'd have to go about eliminating each attachment one by one as they are lodged in deeper. Renunciation comes naturally if you are at that stage and indulgence can be appropriate at time. In my experience, observing yourself is the key to know what's appropriate.

Good point

 

When I renounce something, I'm tied to it, I'm attached to it's absence.

If I can see it, and my desire, for what they truly are there is no need for renunciation.

That's liberation.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Body of Light, is that you?

[Aetherous]

"Do you think you can clear your mind by sitting constantly in silent meditation?

This makes your mind narrow, not clear.

Integral awareness is fluid and adaptable, present in all places and at all times.

That is true meditation.

 

Who can attain clarity and simplicity by avoiding the world?

The Tao is clear and simple, and it doesn't avoid the world.

 

Why not simply honor your parents,

love your children,

help your brothers and sisters,

be faithful to your friends,

care for your mate with devotion,

complete your work cooperatively and joyfully,

assume responsibility for problems,

practice virtue without first demanding it of others,

understand the highest truths yet retain an ordinary manner?

 

That would be true clarity, true simplicity, true mastery."

-Hua Hu Ching

[konchog uma]

http://www.daoistmagic.com/info.php?i=2131

Reclusive Training: This type of Daoist training is sometimes regarded as the higher path of the Daoist Right-Hand school of training. It requires the mystic to remove him or herself from society becoming a lone sage. After recognizing the flaws of ritualistic forms of worship and giving up the politically ingrained patterns of religious dogma, the mystic generally retreats to a cave for internal introspection. Although ritualistic forms of worship are essential for purifying the mind, any form of external oriented action can also keep the mind bound to the external world. Therefore, in the highest stages of Daoist mystical training, the individual releases all attachments to material objects (people, places and things) and spiritual powers (controlling the Elements, the Six Transportations of Shen, etc.) and strives only to attain "oneness" with the eternal Dao through self-introspection.

 

There is fundamentally no difference between taoism and buddhism. All religions and spiritual paths are created and improved upon by countless men cutting off their mundane senses to experience the void.

 

As shown above, it is said that the highest path of daoism involve cutting yourself off from the polluted material society and more importantly, cutting your attachments off to attain oneness with the Dao.

 

renunciation isn't for everyone. daoism evolved to offer guidance to people of worldly paths (graceful acceptance) and monastic paths (graceful rejection). if a person chooses to live in the world, or has to, but they reject the world, they can go crazy and cultivate negativity and lack of peace. so this is not good.

 

also there is more than one single goal. no ism is That simple so i think its important to respect all aspects of spiritual cultivation. not everyone is motivated to experience the void, even if you strongly feel that this is the goal of your own personal practice. people are born with different natures, proclivities, and predilections. what seems right for you isn't right for everyone.

 

and i loathe to make this a personal matter, but i will bring up an example from my own practice. i am not a monastic renunciate but i have had my experiences with void consciousness and with dissolution into oneness. so therefore, one does not need to have no sex or fun or sensory input in order to achieve these goals.

 

daoism has never advocated cultivating rigid attitudes, so maybe if you expanded your acceptance to include the paths that were appropriate for others, you would find more peace.

 

This is virtually the same concept as Dzogchen and Mahamudra in Tibetan Buddhism. Not to mention Jhana Meditation in Theravada Buddhism.

 

dzogchen is just the awareness that we are already one with the all, that we don't have to do anything else or realize anything else, and it is expressed by just being spontaneously ourselves. so its not the same at all. its sort of the opposite of what you are saying, which is deny healthy human impulses and try to realize the void.

 

part of realizing emptiness is that it makes room for the fullness of life, which is beautiful when it is balanced by emptiness realization. but balance is the key, not getting lost in emptiness. this is a common mistake.

 

 

Whether it be Taoism or Buddhism or Hinduism or whatever, one still have to cut his material senses in order to reach the highest stages of cultivation and that means no sex, no good food, no fun which stimulate the senses.

 

all three of those paths have evolved to encompass the needs of the many. hinduism, for example, ranges from the void-driven nihilistic renunciation you are going on about to tantric shaivism, which says that you should accept everything on principle, and have as much sex (and meat, and wine, depending on your school of shaivism) as you want as long as you are doing it in a way that enables progress on your spiritual path.

 

my point is, there are more ways than the way you think is right. and since you seem so fired up about your way, why aren't you dressed in rags on a mountain path, begging for rice and contemplating the void? why are you using the internet? isnt that a part of the polluted world that you seem to detest? your example speaks louder than your words, so you seem to contradict yourself.

 

@ everyone else: i can see why you guys get sick of the buddhists here

[konchog uma]

Good point

 

When I renounce something, I'm tied to it, I'm attached to it's absence.

If I can see it, and my desire, for what they truly are there is no need for renunciation.

That's liberation.

 

thats an awesome point. im glad something good came out of this thread.

 

"in order to reject something, accept it. and in order to accept it, reject it." -lao

[fiveelementtao]

You did not respond to my question. You showed a video of a guy... doing something I don't know what. It may very well be states of consciousness but it does not support your statement that Taoism is about rejecting senses. nor does those states of consciousness prove that he acheived them by rejecting the world. And even if he did, it does not prove that his is the ONLY way to achieve those states. I accept that you believe this to be true, so I am not trying to talk you out of that belief. But if you are going to make these categorical statements, you have to back them up in context and logically. That gentleman in that video was not a Taoist, so that does also not support your argument...

 

This goes back to critical thinking. When is something true or false, partly true and partly false or sometimes true and sometimes false...

 

Tulku my friend, without any insult I am starting to question your ability to reason clearly.

 

This is the true meaning of the Tao, Dzogchen, Mahamudra, Gnosis, etc etc.

 

 

Taoism is certainly not about enjoying life, be a functioning/participating part of society or practicing your tao in moderation.

 

That isn't Taoism. That is Sociology.

[fiveelementtao]

Max learnt his stuff from some masters in the mountains. Pardon me if I am wrong.

no problem, we all make mistakes.

Nevertheless, there are plenty of other high-level taoist masters living in the chinese mountains.

But the fact that there are masters in the mountains does not by that fact mean that all masters ONLY live on mountains or outside of society.

 

So, We have already established that you are incorrect about at least one thing, at least one master has never lived in the mountains or outside of society. If there is one, there may be others. And if there is one, then your categorical statement that all masters must have lived away from society is false. If one of your categorical statements has been proven false, then there is evidence that other of your categorical statements may also be false. IN such a case how can you be sure of any of your opinions?

 

BY your own admission you were wrong about Max's master. It is no shame to admit mistakes. But, you seemed very sure of your opinion or you wouldn't have expressed it in such a categorical way here. So, then it stands to reason that you may be mistaken about some of you other opinons.

 

When are things True or False? When are things both True and False? When are things sometimes true and sometimes false? What would happen do you think if you meditated on that concept in a cave for 40 days? Do you think your views would change?

 

Wow, what a cool idea, maybe I will try this myself. (Without the cave though)

[thelerner]

The only difference between taoism and buddhism is in name.

 

I stopped reading the posts when I got to this one.

 

What???? I don't think so. I have great respect for both. But IMO you're wrong, to say the only difference is in name only indicates you may need to hit the books.

 

my 2 cents

[Mal]

MODS! I would like to report this blatant piece of DISINFO! LOL!

*moderating*

 

I note the "LOL" as I know you can report posts, so I'm guessing this is a joke as I'm just confused by that.

 

As to MarbleHeads post. I feel he called your arguments BS (as he later clarified) so it wasn't, as such, totally directed at you. Although it did look like that was before I read thread.

 

Given the type on information/point of view tulku is presenting here, I don't think it's unexpected to see some strong replies in return. But please try to stay reasonably civil.

[Seth Ananda]

Tulku, I admire your enthusiasm for renunciation path and I think it will lead you to many great experiences, but when you post you come off as very young and dogmatic and a bit Ignorant of the other paths...

 

One what many paths {not all} consider to be among the highest teachings, like Taoism's Wu Way {did I spell that right? I am not a Taoist scholar} teachings or Buddhism's Dzogchen and Mahamudra, all embrace the world very thoroughly and enjoyment of every moment becomes the deepest meditation...

 

In Dzogchen for Instance, one gives up the need to renounce anything, because as one becomes established in Rigpa, the world and all the pleasurable experiences are seen as Natural and Perfect adornments or 'ornaments' of Awareness Itself.

 

The Dzogchenpa then practices enjoying every luxury and pleasure possible{without grasping}, to make sure that s/he is completely unshakable, or to make sure that nothing in desire or aversion can interrupt her Awareness state...

 

That [for me] is a far higher practice than renunciation. The Yogi that has to live away from the world or society, does so because s/he is unable to practice the Higher teachings, either because she does not have quite enough will power, or probably because she simply does not have access to the Highest teachings...

 

 

I encourage your renunciation path though, as it is perfect for some people and I did some time their myself, but stay aware that there may come a time when the world becomes your path...

 

Blessings! Seth

[Ambrose_Bierce]

Hi Tulku,

 

I used to have quite a bit of fervor for the renunciation path myself. Many things happened which made me reconsider the renunciation path.

 

In the west it is not necessarily the difficulty of living the renunciation path. It is how people are connected in the city you live in that confirms the overall result.

How do you interact with people who you see go to the bar? When you are interacting with people who have opposing views what is your general reaction? Do you isolate yourself from messages you could be getting from other people which helps to overall tweak our views on things?

 

The lone mind tends to have a funny interaction with itself if one is not used to looking for messages in nature itself. Once you have done it... What happens when you realize you cant interpet or react in a non-inflamitory way with humanity? Are you ready for that? Do you realize that being a hermit actually sheds a lot of your interaction skills?

 

Have you seen how old people who are hermits in the texts are? They have already learned how to interact with people.

 

My smoking gun question... If you would be ever wanting to consider it:

If you cant learn how to properly interact with people, how could you learn how to properly interact with natural forces, deities or spirits?

 

If you think I am implying that you do not. The information I am giving is missed. I just ask simply that people who consider this path to be concerned with the result which although beautific and full of glory which is talked about. That it may not be what you think it is. It is the stepping stone for one who has plateaued in their understanding and is searching for more tea during the dark tea time of the soul.

[Lotus7]

Tulku, I admire your enthusiasm for renunciation path and I think it will lead you to many great experiences, but when you post you come off as very young and dogmatic and a bit Ignorant of the other paths...

 

One what many paths {not all} consider to be among the highest teachings, like Taoism's Wu Way {did I spell that right? I am not a Taoist scholar} teachings or Buddhism's Dzogchen and Mahamudra, all embrace the world very thoroughly and enjoyment of every moment becomes the deepest meditation...

 

In Dzogchen for Instance, one gives up the need to renounce anything, because as one becomes established in Rigpa, the world and all the pleasurable experiences are seen as Natural and Perfect adornments or 'ornaments' of Awareness Itself.

 

The Dzogchenpa then practices enjoying every luxury and pleasure possible{without grasping}, to make sure that s/he is completely unshakable, or to make sure that nothing in desire or aversion can interrupt her Awareness state...

 

That [for me] is a far higher practice than renunciation. The Yogi that has to live away from the world or society, does so because s/he is unable to practice the Higher teachings, either because she does not have quite enough will power, or probably because she simply does not have access to the Highest teachings...

 

 

I encourage your renunciation path though, as it is perfect for some people and I did some time their myself, but stay aware that there may come a time when the world becomes your path...

 

Blessings! Seth

 

Great post Seth! That was the only post on this thread that actually shared and clarified the stigma that many "masters" carry with them today. I completely agree that seclusion can be a great undertaking for a time, (if that is where ones personal insight drives them), but after a time, I think the real challenge to a cultivator/seeker is to live within the confines of modern society for a time.

There is a season for everything. Trees do not need to ask the Autumn air when its leaves should fall, nor do the flowers ask the spring when their petals may bloom. They simply go on effortlessly year after year carrying out their existence, participating in every moment.

That to me is the the HIGHEST teaching(as Tulku would put it.): Being able to recognize what season is right for ones self. And that my friends is something that no master can teach you. When all is boiled down, all of our salvation lies within our being. No matter if you live in the largest city on earth or in a temple deep into the hills, the Tao is present, and is open to be followed and cultivated. In my humble opinion it is all up to the individual on what path to choose and the amount of time taken to travel the dark and narrow trail up the mountain.

 

Thanks again Seth. And thank you as well Tulku for starting this thread. There may have been some harsh words and hurt feelings , but all in all it has caused me to dig just a tiny bit deeper into my being. And that my friend is why I am here.

 

Thank you all.

 

Namaste, Matt

[Desert Eagle]

This is the true meaning of the Tao, Dzogchen, Mahamudra, Gnosis, etc etc.

 

 

Taoism is certainly not about enjoying life, be a functioning/participating part of society or practicing your tao in moderation.

 

That isn't Taoism. That is Sociology.

 

[Marblehead]

Taoism is certainly not about enjoying life, be a functioning/participating part of society or practicing your tao in moderation.

 

I still disagree with you here. Taoism, in my understanding, is about living life to its fullest. No, I do not mean in excess or chasing after various vices.

 

I am talking about living in such a way so that you are always at peace with your Self (your inner essence). In such a way that you can travel the world and not upset the people you encounter along the way.

 

I am talking about interacting with all other aspects of the Manifest, Mystery, and Chi.

 

I am talking about being able to appreciate the rose, without praise, and without blame to the thorns.

 

I am talking about experiencing the passions and emotions of the animal we are.

 

Deer do what deer do. People should do what people do.