How to determine someone's level of enlightenment?

[thelerner]

Can anyone here determine their own level of enlightenment? If so do tell

 

I don't know if it tells about enlightenment, but I do think abiding in a quiet mind is a sign your on the right path.

 

I.E a mind full of racing thoughts is further from the path. Thats not to say thoughts are bad, but they must be servant and not the master.

[mYTHmAKER]

Yes, you understand correctly. However, enlightenment is a Buddhist philosophy. The Yin-Yang concept does not apply here.

 

Interesting. Did you know that Hinduism - Vedanta - Kashmir Shaivism - Sufism - Judaism and Christianity all have enlightened beings they are called realized beings- sometimes saints.

 

If one is dealing with intellectual matters one can argue back and forth, back and forth, back and forth,

with such ideas as enlightenment being assigned to a particular religion or philosophy.

One can be atheist, agnostic and be an enlightened being.

[Vajrahridaya]

How to determine if someone is enlightened? Sneak behind that person, and if the person doesn't feel you, finger pop the person in the back of the ear and see how the person reacts.

[zerostao]

ya take a vote

i cast my vote for mYTHmAKER.

[mYTHmAKER]

i cast my vote for mYTHmAKER.

 

Did you vote that i am realized?

[Otis]

But what do you mean when you say "allowing new information to continue to shade reality?"

I just meant that new data can continue to inform my model of reality, so it's always a work-in-progress.

[ChiDragon]

1. Interesting. Did you know that Hinduism - Vedanta - Kashmir Shaivism - Sufism - Judaism and Christianity all have enlightened beings they are called realized beings- sometimes saints.

 

2. If one is dealing with intellectual matters one can argue back and forth, back and forth, back and forth,

with such ideas as enlightenment being assigned to a particular religion or philosophy.

One can be atheist, agnostic and be an enlightened being.

 

1. No, I didn't know they were; and I don't think they were neither.

 

2. Yes, I'm an atheist and dealing with intellectual matters here in a discussion forum. I hope that I am doing the right thing.....

[strawdog65]

Hi All!

 

I just wanted to pop in and contribute to this great thread.

 

To me, a yardstick by which to gain a measure of any level of

attainment of anything... would be the people we surround

ourselves with, and the example we have been to them.

 

Has our example helped others to see something in a new light?

 

Have we helped to open minds and open hearts, so that knowledge

and wisdom can enter?

 

Have we shown through our own Loving relationships,

that Love is an integral part of any understanding?

 

Just my thoughts.

 

Peace!

[stan herman]

Interesting thread. My view goes something like this (it changes from time to time): One who is enlightened seldom thinks of himself as enlightened anymore. 'Enlightenment' becomes merely a word. Realizing the illusory nature of the world, he recognizes himself as a projector of phenomena, and realizes his judgments of others' attainments are severely limited by his own predispositions and biases. (Of course if he were unmovingly enlightened he would have no biases--but then neither would he still be a human being.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

I would say that either

 

1) the enlightened will "keep their gold in a tattered sack," so we wouldn't be able to spot them

 

or

 

2) their temperament is not affected by negative events around them, they love everything, engaging in selfless deeds without concern for profit & loss, they avoid recognition.

[Vajrahridaya]

I would say that either

 

1) the enlightened will "keep their gold in a tattered sack," so we wouldn't be able to spot them

 

or

 

2) their temperament is not affected by negative events around them, they love everything, engaging in selfless deeds without concern for profit & loss, they avoid recognition.

 

Unless it's for the benefit of others. The Buddha certainly did not avoid recognition.

[mYTHmAKER]

 

2. Yes, I'm an atheist

 

Now you know you have a shot at it

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Unless it's for the benefit of others. The Buddha certainly did not avoid recognition.

 

Yes, thankfully there have been the more rare exceptions.

[everseeking]

What about this point of view;

 

Enlightenment is attained whenever one realizes (truly) and stops denying their mortality, while also realizing and no longer denying the power that the opportunity of life is-the vast possibilities, from existence to world change. Not just of ones own life, but of all life. All of this, while being uninhibited by the gravity of such realization. It is an understanding, and an awareness, which once made fully, does not leave the consciousness yet is no longer present in thought.

 

I have never read anything along these lines, particularly the relation to accepting ones mortality. But I haven't been reading much lately:-)

 

As for how one could 'tell' if someone is enlightened, I think GIH has really put a lot into this.

 

But my mind goes back to 'The Unfettered Mind', by Takuan Soho as translated by Cleary-something about the flower and the subtle smile.

 

Enjoy today.

 

N-

[strawdog65]

 

 

It is an understanding, and an awareness, which once made fully, does not leave the consciousness yet is no longer present in thought.

 

 

 

Simply eloquent.

[Gerard]

A person is enlightened depending on the total context of that person's mind.

 

It's not that difficult to see (look into the eyes, the shen, the aura around the head, house of the Buddha nature). For example:

 

 

 

 

I'd love to have met the last Buddha on this astral plane myself to look into his enlightened spirit.

 

 

The Buddha certainly did not avoid recognition.

 

Certainly! Once fully awakened teach others the road to complete liberation from Samsara. His love for humanity and all sentient beings was immense. Life is even more worth living.

Edited June 24, 2011 by Gerard

[Mahberry]

Certainly! Once fully awakened teach others the road to complete liberation from Samsara. His love for humanity and all sentient beings was immense. Life is even more worth living.

Buddha refused to teach at first, he thought people were too stupid to understand.

[RiverSnake]

Don't be fooled by the phonies

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_Hm0J847Gk&feature=related

[Dagon]

Judge no one. Your ability to judge one would be limited to your own experiences. Therefore, seek to understand, and then decide if the information shared is of any value or meaning to you.

 

Determining someone elses level is of little value. For example, someone less advanced than yourself, could teach you something.

 

I know it would be tough when looking for a single teacher or master, but with this very outlook, everyone can be your teacher.

[strawdog65]

Judge no one. Your ability to judge one would be limited to your own experiences. Therefore, seek to understand, and then decide if the information shared is of any value or meaning to you.

 

Determining someone elses level is of little value. For example, someone less advanced than yourself, could teach you something.

 

I know it would be tough when looking for a single teacher or master, but with this very outlook, everyone can be your teacher.

 

 

Hi Dagon!

 

I have experienced exactly what you are saying.

Sometimes it is the simple mind that teaches the most.

Our outer complexity, is no indication of what lessons we

have learned or what we could possibly impart to others.

 

If we can maintain an open mind without judgment...

Then everyone IS a teacher.

 

Even if it's only their point of view.

 

 

 

Peace!

[Dagon]

Exactly!

[zerostao]

Judge no one. Your ability to judge one would be limited to your own experiences. Therefore, seek to understand, and then decide if the information shared is of any value or meaning to you.

 

Determining someone elses level is of little value. For example, someone less advanced than yourself, could teach you something.

 

I know it would be tough when looking for a single teacher or master, but with this very outlook, everyone can be your teacher.

yup

[steve]

Judge no one. Your ability to judge one would be limited to your own experiences. Therefore, seek to understand, and then decide if the information shared is of any value or meaning to you.

 

Determining someone elses level is of little value. For example, someone less advanced than yourself, could teach you something.

 

I know it would be tough when looking for a single teacher or master, but with this very outlook, everyone can be your teacher.

+3

 

I think that the more open we can be to this approach, the more we are able to develop wisdom.

This is one of the major problems with adopting a dogma or method to the exclusion of others.

It shuts us down.

This can be useful early on but at some point I think it is critical to open up to possibilities beyond what is encapsulated in any one frame of reference.

[Simple_Jack]

From Zen master Yen-Shou's The Source Mirror/ Tsung Chin Lu:

First question: When we completely see true nature as plainly as we see colors in broad daylight, are we the same as bodhisattvas like Manjushri?

Second question: When we can clearly understand the source in everything, as we encounter situations and face objects, as we see form and hear sound, as we raise and lower our feet, as we open and close our eyes, are we in accord with the path?

Third question: When we read through the teachings of Buddha for our era contained in the Buddhist canon, and the sayings of all the Zen masters since antiquity, and we hear their profundities without becoming afraid, do we always get accurate understanding and have no doubts?

Fourth question: When people pose difficult differentiating questions to us, and press us with all sorts of probing inquiries, are we able to respond with the four forms of eloquence*, and resolve all their doubts?

Fifth question: Does your wisdom shine unhindered at all times in all places, with perfect penetration from moment to moment, not encountering any phenomenon that can obstruct it, and never being interrupted for even an instant?

Sixth question: When all kinds of adverse and favorable and good and evil realms appear before us, are we unobstructed by them, and can we see through them all?

Seventh question: In all the mental states in Treatise on the Gate for Illuminating the Hundred Phenomena, can we see for each and every one of them, their fine details, the essential nature, and their fundamental source and point of origin, and not be confused by birth and death and the sense faculties and sense organs?

Eighth question: Can we discern reality in the midst of all forms of conduct and activity, whether walking, standing, sitting, or lying down, whether receiving instructions or responding, whether dressing or eating?

Ninth question: Can we be singleminded and unmoved whether we hear there is a Buddha or we hear there is no Buddha, whether we hear there are sentient beings or we hear there are no sentient beings, whether we are praised or slandered or affirmed or denied?

Tenth question: Can we clearly comprehend all the differentiating knowledge we hear, and comprehend both true nature and apparent form, inner truth and phenomena, without hindrance, and discern the source of all phenomena, even including the appearance of the thousand sages in the world, without any doubts?

*The Four Forms of Unlimited Eloquence in Buddhism: "...'unlimited eloquence' indicates the power to freely understand and freely express oneself without hindrance. "Unlimited eloquence" comprises four unlimited powers of understanding and preaching. These are: complete knowledge of the teachings, thorough knowledge of the meanings deriving from the teachings, complete freedom in the use of various languages and dialects to express the teachings, and the ability to preach freely and bravely, employing the other three unlimited powers."
or put this way: four unlimited kinds of knowledge

Also, four unlimited (or unhindered) powers of knowledge, four unlimited kinds of understanding, or four unlimited kinds of eloquence. Powers of understanding and teaching that Buddhas and bodhisattvas are said to possess. They are (1) complete understanding of the Law, or teachings; (2) complete mastery of the meanings deriving from the Law; (3) complete freedom in expressing the teachings in various languages and dialects; and (4) the ability to preach to all people at will by employing the first three powers. The four unlimited kinds of knowledge represent being unhindered in understanding and teaching.
Both from this site: http://nichiren.info/buddhism/library/SokaGakkai/Study/LectLS/Lectur10.htm

Edited February 5, 2014 by Simple_Jack

[Aaron]

In certain sects of Zen they determine one's level of enlightenment by their ability to answer certain koans. The problem these days is that there are books with the answers already in them. I think more and more each day I believe that enlightenment is pointless, rather it is our ability to live each day understanding what we're doing that's important. The fact is, the only difference between those who are "enlightened" and those that aren't is that the former are aware of what they are actually doing.

 

When one understands the nature of their actions, without applying morality or ideology to those actions, but rather they can see those actions exactly for what they really are, then they are enlightened, but in the same way they are the first people to tell you that they aren't enlightened at all.

 

Aaron