You are all delusional!

[Marblehead]

... optimistic ...

 

I love optimism. I know I have mentioned it before but I will mention it again.

 

I have a copy of the Internation Optimist's Creed taped to the closet door in my bedroom. Any morning I wake up and feel a little crappy I will stop and read a few or all of the articles.

 

By the time I am done reading my crappy feeling has gone away and I am ready for a new day.

 

Happy Trails!

[Marblehead]

Now, I can understand the Buddha's concern for suffering. Afterall, he was born into a royal family and lived a most pleasurable life until his first outing into the world of reality and saw all the suffering. But who was causing a lot of the suffering? His Dad! By taking from those who did not have enough and giving it to those who already had too much.

 

And I truely do admire the Buddha for giving up all the comfort he had and choosing to live with the common folk and trying to help then ease their suffering.

 

Okay, of the three levels you posted about. I discount level 1 as not being suffering. I held that position in that other thread about pain and suffering. Now true, we can choose to suffer as a result of level 1 but that is our choice.

 

I disagree with the entire basis of level 2. Again, it is a choice, not universal with all humans. Change is a given. Adapt and survive; stagnate and die. Also, it depends on the pleasure and whether or not it is partaken in excess as to whether or not it will turn into pain. Moderation. The Buddha taught this. And again, I think that pain is being confused with suffering.

 

I would absolutely agree with level 3 in general if, but only if, these negative emotions were a part of the individuals virtue (te) but not all people have these emotions so these people will not be suffering as a result. There are many people who have positive virtues as part of their true nature.

 

So, bottom line, even though I would agree that if a person is suffering from whatever the cause, Buddhism is an excellent vehicle for the elimination of that suffering. But to generalize all humankind and tell them that they are suffering is far beyond anything I can accept.

 

The same goes for the Christian religion. You are born in sin therefore you must be save from your sins. Trash talk. I was born as a result of the love between my mother and father. My birth was totally consistent with the processes of nature. How dare someone say that they know better than the universe about what is a sin and what is not a sin.

 

I was once told that I would go to hell if I didn't believe exactly like he wanted mt to believe and accept Jesus as my savior. I told him he could go to hell right now. He left very imbarassed. I continued doing what I was doing before he rudely interupted me.

 

If we understand the processes of nature we can adapt to the changes were are going to experience throughout our lifetime. Now that I am a bit older I have some of those old age pains. But I don't regret those pains. I am proud that I have no tpissed anyone off in my life so badly that they wanted to kill me. I am also proud of the fact that I have lived a relatively healthy life so that I have not caused myself any serious health problems. I am also proud of the fact that I have had a great number of experiences, most of which the average man never even gets close to having but at the same time I have taken care to not exceed my capabilities and capacities.

 

Can you tell I enjoy talking about this stuff?

 

So, anyhow, no one will ever convince me that life is suffering nor will anyone ever convince me that I was born in sin. Therefore I can live my life to its fullest without the restriction of some all-seer. Don't you know that I am also a believer in free will. No karma, no destiny, no limits. We are all born with free will and we all should exercise our free will to whatever limits our external conditions will allow. But!, do it with good virtue.

 

Happy Trails!

[Apech]

Hi Marblehead,

 

I am not actually a practicing Buddhist so I don't know why I feel compelled to comment on all this suffering stuff. But I can't help myself. The criticisms of the Buddhist view in Noble Truth 1 (in some ways better than the sequel NT2) that you offer miss the mark because the whole point is that it doesn't really have anything to do with the stuff you mention. For instance Buddha's dad may well have brought about suffering of people but unless those people had become Buddhas themselves they would have continued to suffer under defn. 3 'conditionality'.

 

I think that we have a problem in the west because Christianity has filled out minds with nonsense about misery and sin and suffering (e.g. Albino Monk in da Vinci code) ... Buddhism is actually about finding out how to be happy. In fact I have in my hand a booklet called "Discovering the causes of Happiness" by Lama Jampa Thaye ... ok Buddhists have a view as to what those causes are ... and not everyone would agree with their analysis ... fair enough .. that's it... I'm too tired to write any more ...

 

A.

[Marblehead]

Hi Marblehead,

 

I am not actually a practicing Buddhist so I don't know why I feel compelled to comment on all this suffering stuff. But I can't help myself.

 

You are quite right. But we are talking primarily about suffering in this thread so I am voicing my understandings and opinions. And I will admit right here and now that my opinions are rather biased.

 

There is a long story (which I will not relate) as to why I present my understandings and opinions the way I do. I do not try to intentionally knock any religion that has as a main tenent of helping people cope with life. I think it is a grand undertaking. I do sometimes object to the manner in which that is sometimes done.

 

So even though I did mention Buddhism and Christianity in my post above it was not my intention to speak against either but rather use them as reference points.

 

Even though I do not accept the Buddhist or Christian, or any religion, for that matter, I will never intentionally say that anyone else should not follow the teaching.

 

It is true, there are some people who suffer and regardless of what others do to help them they will suffer for their entire life. That's just the way it is. But there are others who suffer but their suffering was a choice and they can make a new choice any time they want to. They just need a reason to do it. Buddhism might help them; Christianity might help them, who knows what might help them.

 

So please don't think that I am picking on Buddhism. I'm not, really. I'm picking on the concept of suffering. I did include Christianity in my above post in hopes that I wouldn't appear to be picking on just Buddhism.

 

But you were right in pointing out what you did which required me to respond to what you said and hopefully there will be a better understanding by others who read this thread.

 

Happy Trails!

Edited October 2, 2009 by Marblehead

[Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that]

I say all this Buddhism Vs. Daoism stuff can be solved very simply.

 

Let's get Buddha and Laotzi and let them have good old fashioned fight! Who suffers the least is the winner! Then we can all sleep sound at night.

 

Having said that it's gonna be a bit of a mission getting them to fight in the first place. Rumours will have to be instigated beforehand.

[Apech]

I say all this Buddhism Vs. Daoism stuff can be solved very simply.

 

Let's get Buddha and Laotzi and let them have good old fashioned fight! Who suffers the least is the winner! Then we can all sleep sound at night.

 

Having said that it's gonna be a bit of a mission getting them to fight in the first place. Rumours will have to be instigated beforehand.

 

 

As long as there's no punching or kicking below the third chakra - I think its doable - all we need is a big venue and a large karmic purse.

[Marblehead]

... - all we need is a big venue and a large karmic purse.

 

What are these? Some kind of wepons?

 

Anyhow, now everyone who has read this thread knows how I feel about suffering.

 

And I'll tell you, you ain't heard nothing yet until you hear me talk about 'fear'. Hopefully someone will start a thread on it one day.

 

Happy Trails!

Edited October 2, 2009 by Marblehead

[wudangspirit]

WELL SAID! TOTALLY AGREE! TAO BLESS YOU BROTHER!

 

Now, I can understand the Buddha's concern for suffering. Afterall, he was born into a royal family and lived a most pleasurable life until his first outing into the world of reality and saw all the suffering. But who was causing a lot of the suffering? His Dad! By taking from those who did not have enough and giving it to those who already had too much.

 

And I truely do admire the Buddha for giving up all the comfort he had and choosing to live with the common folk and trying to help then ease their suffering.

 

Okay, of the three levels you posted about. I discount level 1 as not being suffering. I held that position in that other thread about pain and suffering. Now true, we can choose to suffer as a result of level 1 but that is our choice.

 

I disagree with the entire basis of level 2. Again, it is a choice, not universal with all humans. Change is a given. Adapt and survive; stagnate and die. Also, it depends on the pleasure and whether or not it is partaken in excess as to whether or not it will turn into pain. Moderation. The Buddha taught this. And again, I think that pain is being confused with suffering.

 

I would absolutely agree with level 3 in general if, but only if, these negative emotions were a part of the individuals virtue (te) but not all people have these emotions so these people will not be suffering as a result. There are many people who have positive virtues as part of their true nature.

 

So, bottom line, even though I would agree that if a person is suffering from whatever the cause, Buddhism is an excellent vehicle for the elimination of that suffering. But to generalize all humankind and tell them that they are suffering is far beyond anything I can accept.

 

The same goes for the Christian religion. You are born in sin therefore you must be save from your sins. Trash talk. I was born as a result of the love between my mother and father. My birth was totally consistent with the processes of nature. How dare someone say that they know better than the universe about what is a sin and what is not a sin.

 

I was once told that I would go to hell if I didn't believe exactly like he wanted mt to believe and accept Jesus as my savior. I told him he could go to hell right now. He left very imbarassed. I continued doing what I was doing before he rudely interupted me.

 

If we understand the processes of nature we can adapt to the changes were are going to experience throughout our lifetime. Now that I am a bit older I have some of those old age pains. But I don't regret those pains. I am proud that I have no tpissed anyone off in my life so badly that they wanted to kill me. I am also proud of the fact that I have lived a relatively healthy life so that I have not caused myself any serious health problems. I am also proud of the fact that I have had a great number of experiences, most of which the average man never even gets close to having but at the same time I have taken care to not exceed my capabilities and capacities.

 

Can you tell I enjoy talking about this stuff?

 

So, anyhow, no one will ever convince me that life is suffering nor will anyone ever convince me that I was born in sin. Therefore I can live my life to its fullest without the restriction of some all-seer. Don't you know that I am also a believer in free will. No karma, no destiny, no limits. We are all born with free will and we all should exercise our free will to whatever limits our external conditions will allow. But!, do it with good virtue.

 

Happy Trails!

 

 

I prefer to have Zhang Sanfeng take part in that fight with buddha. hahahahahah

Laozi and Buddha would probably just smile each other to death..

 

As long as there's no punching or kicking below the third chakra - I think its doable - all we need is a big venue and a large karmic purse.

 

 

"There's nothing to fear but fear itself." Heard that before somewhere ha!

Fear is also an emotion conjured up by post heaven attachment. However we have to know there is fear we just don't have to give into it

 

 

What are these? Some kind of wepons?

 

Anyhow, now everyone who has read this thread knows how I feel about suffering.

 

And I'll tell you, you ain't heard nothing yet until you hear me talk about 'fear'. Hopefully someone will start a thread on it one day.

 

Happy Trails!

[Mal]

Let's get Buddha and Laotzi and let them have good old fashioned fight!

 

ROFL It's funny because those two wouldn't be fighting. Just the disciples and followers

[Gerard]

I posted this already here in another thread. Let's see if this helps you understanding what the First Noble Truth is from a practical point of view:

 

Reginald Ray relates the "clear seeing" (vipassana) of dukkha (suffering) of a student at a rave party, the fruit of their extensive sadhana:

 

A striking example of Vipashyana* was provided by a student of mine in her early twenties who had been meditating for some time. Since her late teens, she had been a devotee of "raves," dance parties held at enormous warehouses in our area, attended by literally thousands of young people. Well-known bands are engaged, the music is loud, alcohol and drugs are sometimes consumed, and the dancing goes on until dawn. The atmosphere is said to be usually "mellow" and fun, and the young folks are drawn back to the parties again and again. My student was attending a rave one Saturday night and, for no apparent reason, wanted to feel the cool, the space, and the silence of the night. She left the huge warehouse where the party was happening and walked across an adjacent field onto a a hillock beyond. Turning around, she looked at the building, throbbing with music and blazing with light, packed as it was by several thousand ravers. Suddenly, without warning, it was as if her eyes were opened for the first time and she "saw" the party--so she reported--in all its naked reality. She saw the tremendous desperation of the people inside, their loneliness and hunger, how they had all come there seeking to escape from their suffering. She saw how they had all become predators, preying upon one another, in a fruitless search for happiness. It was an endless game in which, she too, was involved. Overcome by the sorrow and hopelessness of the situation, she broke down and wept. She came to talk to me because, as she said, this experience had shown her something not only about raves, but about life in general, about the many things people do out of their own pain and misery. She told me that she felt, for the first time, the meaning of suffering. She saw her experience as a direct product of her meditation practice and her commitment to her spiritual path. Her experience made her realize, again for the first time, that her meditation was the one anchor in her life and that the spiritual journey she had undertaken was about having her eyes opened, in perhaps shocking and painful ways, to the underpinnings of the seemingly normal, everyday world.

 

Vipashyana = Vipassana

 

Ray, Reginald (2002). Indestructible Truth: The Living Spirituality of Tibetan Buddhism. Boston, Massachusetts, USA: Shambhala Publications.

[Marblehead]

Hi durkhrod chogori,

 

Excellent example and I have absolutely no problem with it. I actually enjoyed reading it and agree with the lesson being presented. Thanks for sharing.

 

We create most of our own suffering by seeking that which is unattainable.

 

Happy Trails!

 

 

ps to wudangspirit: I would be grateful if you would take that statement of yours concerning fear, build on it just a little and use it to start a new thread concerning the subject of fear. I think that would make for an excellent discussion.

 

Happy Trails!

[steve]

Delusions can be fun, but they can also be harmful.

 

So before you attack me, hear me out....

 

So you have some free time, why waste it "cultivating" what ou can't even prove is real?

Why not sit down and educate yourself in something that matters like science and math?

Why not learn some new skills like painting and sculpting?

 

You sit there for hours at a time doing nothing/meditating. You learn nothing that way (obviously ). Go out watch some TV do something fun at least sheesh! And yeah some enjoy meditating, well they've had to condition themselves to enjoy it because otherwise no one in their right mind would do it everyday for so long. Just for the record I consider relaxing and reflecting on your thoughts different from meditation since true meditation seems to require an empty mind, no thoughts.

 

Chakras....why not learn real medicine, learn about the real chakras, your organs! and stop trying to feel things that are there, but not in some mystical forrm you believe they are. Throw your heart at someone they'll feel it when it smacks them on the head, throw your "heart chakra" at them (if you can find it in the first place ) and they ll feel nothing, because there is nothing there!

 

So much energy here is wasted in fairy tales it's kinda sad

I mean a kid has imaginary friends and experiences we have a laugh and tell them the truth, they imagining things. Now an adult has them and we can do anything, because its been labelled a spiritual or religious experience. Whats up with that?!

 

I also see so much "visualisation" type stuff that it makes me wonder how long one must visualise before they buy into their own fantasy! I dont need to visualise light to see it, sound to hear it, pain to feel it etc because they are real! If my dantian was reaal I would feel it, all I feel is my stomach rumbling

Can you seriously suggest that the majority of people are born lacking the ability to feel and see stuff like this? Are we born handicapped and need to "cultivate" in order to regain our full power? please!

 

Yes I know look at was some awesome masters can do, well they practice martial arts or do exercises that allow them to do these things, its more about conditioning their body rather than cultivating! I wanna see someone who cultivates their body without conditioning it do some crazy thing like a 1 finger pushup or whatever.

 

As for some of the masters seen doing mystical things on video, well if they ve done it for the camera why not do it one more time for some top and i mean TOP! scientists to see?!? Dont give me that "they wont listen to us" stuff because all they have to do is walk up to them, there is no need for the first meeting to be some kinda formal encounter. Just g to the top biologist and zap him with some bio energy, he ll make time for you then!

 

And yes monks dry wett cloth in really cold conditions etc, but thats because they ve mastered their bodies functions. We can all raise our bodies temperature for example, not at will but we can, go get a fever you ll see! No energy none sense needed!

 

This is getting long, so I should end it! The more I look into this stuff the more it seems like some kinda cult, it may not harm you, but lets just say you could be spending your time doing something better and being happier as a result, you may think you re happy thanks to this stuff, but you re just being happy because you re delusional.

 

I dont mean to offend any of you, and chances are I wont, because my words probably wont break through the barrier of delusions built over time. I hope you read the whole post, sorry its long...

 

Thank you for reading

Hi That Guy - I think this is a great post! I took your post to be offered in the spirit of real interest in the topic and real concern for members of the forum.

 

(my second rant this week!)

 

Of course we are delusional! I agree with you and I still participate. It's kind of like Castaneda said - it's all controlled folly. Absolutely none of this stuff makes a bit of difference. We will all age, get sick, and die. Having cultivated, prayed, or not, will have little or no effect. Not everyone will agree with that statement , but that's ok it's only my assertion. Nevertheless, we have several years to live and get to choose what we wish to do while we are able.

 

I've practiced Daoist cultivation consistently for ~ 6 years now and there is no question that we create a very complex system of experience through visualization, imagination, and intention. At the same time, once you begin to get deeper into the experience of these things, there is a quality that suggests a process of discovery as much as creation. I honestly will not claim to have any way to know which is occurring - discovery or creation, but then again, who cares? What is the difference? Are we not creating the world every instant? Isn't is miraculous that we are capable of both?

 

How do we experience the world? Through sensory organs that take raw, meaningless energy and convert it into electrical signals that are interpreted in our brains in very specific ways. That is not by any means a complete and accurate reflection of "reality" but rather a very limited slice of experience that is somewhat consistent from person to person due to our physiologic similarities. We are like antennae that pick up and interpret certain specific wavelengths of energy while totally ignoring an infinite number of others! We are only tuned, based on our physiology and anatomy, to a very narrow spectrum. Other organisms "create" a very different experience of reality due to how they are "tuned." Who is to say what is real? You know, like the blind people feeling different parts of an elephant and describing it in so many different ways.

 

To take it to another level, the whole of society is a delusion. We are a product of millennia of conditioning. The things you suggest would be better to do than cultivating are nothing more than a reflection of your conditioning. It starts way before you are even born - it's a product of the conditioning of your entire culture.

Do you think everyone from every culture would find TV of value or even interesting? You talk about sitting and doing nothing then talk about fairy tales - what is TV? Sitting, doing absolutely nothing, looking at fairy tales. We are all delusional. We have been taught that we are separate from each other, from nature, and we have bought in to a complex fantasy of what is important, what is good, what is bad and we are completely oblivious to reality most of the time. We live in our heads most of the time, believing that we understand everything around us when all we really know are the images we've created that help us muddle through our robot lives.

 

You mention math and science. Is life with math and science better than life without? Think about that carefully before answering. Certainly life is longer with math and science. It's easier to satisfy the needs of survival so there's more free time. Does that make it better? Is my life better than an indigenous person living in the Amazon basin? That's simply a matter of perspective. Many of us yearn for a simpler, more natural existence. All of the math and science are exactly what has taken us so far from our true nature.

 

On this forum you will find a lot of people who use spirituality, magic and all that sort of stuff as entertainment (not much different from your recommendation that they would better spend their time watching TV or painting). You'll find others just trolling or looking for companionship. You'll even find a handful of people who see through the delusions of society and are genuinely looking for more satisfying answers and a more fulfilling life. Are they trading one set of delusions for another? Often the answer is yes. However, which of us can honestly say that we have a clear enough answer to all of creation to know for certain that this is always the case? I have derived considerable benefit in my own life from my spiritual investigation in many different ways - in how I relate to my family, in how I relate to my profession, and so forth.

 

I would suggest that, if you have any degree of interest or curiosity, a careful and skeptical approach to the investigation of spiritual matters is a worthwhile endeavor. If you feel the drive, there is no benefit in resisting. On the other hand, if you are not driven then it is a waste of your time to bother. Follow your heart in the matter but beware of distraction - much (and yes, possibly all) of what is out there is simply entertainment and self indulgence. Kind of like painting and television.

 

In summary - it's critically important (at least for me) to put all of this stuff in perspective. I have a low threshold for BS but I still try to have an open mind and enjoy investigating things beyond their superficial appearance. Perspectives like yours are a breath of fresh air on this forum (IMO) - and it reminds me how much I miss Buddy!!! I hope he is well wherever he may be.

[witch]

Sorry to necro this thread, but this morning I came across this:

 

http://dailygrail.com/features/the-myth-of...ollar-challenge

 

and I am feeling quite disoriented right now.

[Marblehead]

 

and I am feeling quite disoriented right now.

 

Okay. A suggestion. Go to Wal-Mart and buy a 97 cent compass. The needle will always point north. You can remain oriented for the rest of your life at a very minimal price.

 

Peace & Love!

[witch]

 

It's just one thing when you are doing something that might be real but is more like a dream than anything. Really real, even if it's a very faint effect, that's another thing entirely. If the same metrics against chance and rigorous scientific inquiry are used to prove both psi effects and that aspirin helps a headache, then....well I have to rethink many things in my life.

[Marblehead]

 

It's just one thing when you are doing something that might be real but is more like a dream than anything. Really real, even if it's a very faint effect, that's another thing entirely. If the same metrics against chance and rigorous scientific inquiry are used to prove both psi effects and that aspirin helps a headache, then....well I have to rethink many things in my life.

 

Yeah, Sweetheart, I can't get inside your brain so you have to do all that work on your own.

 

(But I will offer my helpful hints whenever I can though. Hehehe.)

 

Peace & Love!

[JustARandomPanda]

More info on the James Randi Foundation. It's an eye opener.

[witch]

Thanks! And then there's this:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-RraLw0MIeY

[TheWhiteRabbit]

You might also consider reading this:

 

Corrected this link 1 Time

Edited November 8, 2009 by TheWhiteRabbit

[Ohm-Nei]

Strong yang energy in OP

[wenwu]

hi there

 

sorry I didn;t have time or energy to read all the posts but it seems an interesting discussion, and a question that i have been asked many times i.e. why do you do these things

 

firstly let me outline my practice: mainly MA aikido and bagua through bagua i study qi gong and meditation.

fairly simple

 

one of the early post asked why do you mediatate and not go skiing more,

 

good point i think meditation is only one stage. and is a practice to being able to have more control over yourself or your mind at least. we should be able to do this with out any outside stimulus and we should also be able to do this without lighting a few candles and closing the curtains and getting cosy with ourselves.

 

Meditation comes in many forms, there was a study done on a person praciting Kendo, a yogi meditating and a long distance runner. all there brains were producing the same wave patterns thorugh thier choosen activity, and also when i am practiving randori in aikido i feel the same as when i am meditating but it would be a really pain in the arse if everytime i wanted to switch off and get centred i had to start throwing people around

 

chi/qi has also been spoken about alot

[Marblehead]

Hi Wenwu,

 

Nice post but I would like to comment to this:

 

 

... meditation ... is a practice to being able to have more control over yourself or your mind at least.

 

I think that meditation should be more at clearing one's mind of all external stimulus and removing our illusions and delusions. It is through physical practice that we place importance on control and understanding, if we still have them, our illusions and delusions so that we do not confuse them with our physical reality.

 

Peace & Love!

[TheWhiteRabbit]

...

Edited July 3, 2010 by TheWhiteRabbit