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I found this article on Qi to be interesting. Can't say I agree with everything it says but some here may appreciate it. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10874819/ Despite its growing utility I would urge some caution in relying too heavily on AI to explain neidan, among other things, regardless of language. AI does not have the power of human discernment, something I consider important when it comes to meaningful understanding.

I have disagreed with some of your conclusions but I can see you’ve put a lot of work into this. I agree that qi=energy is weak and think that it should be just left as qi in translations. For me the distinction around neidan is about the Dan, the elixir or pill for immortality (ultimately). I think I am right in saying that (it’s been a while since I studied this) the birth of neidan as separate from external alchemy is first documented in the cantong qi and that terms from external ‘chemical’ alchemy were applied to internal subtle substances. This is why jing, qi and so on are conceived of as substances. Thank you for taking the time to do the translation.

I liked how the article pointed out fundamental differences in Eastern and. Western language and ontology and its effect on our conceptualization and understanding of Qi. I also like how it emphasized the contextual and relational nature of Qi which makes it a bit difficult to define it in Western terms as a precise quantity or substance.

There are certain misunderstandings of qi in the west (misunderstanding is the specialty of the west in fact) and pre 1900s translations are laughable with the qi = just energy or breath and they'll usually have tao as god or something lol, the baopuzi english translation is absolutely unreadable for example with classic lines such as "God is round, but there has been no compass." In proper modern translations though its left as qi for that reason, because people who read neidan texts often have learnt from teachers in china and have the same understanding of qi as others in their lineage I do absolutely agree that the misunderstanding exists, qi isn't just energy but it has an energetic component in many native chinese traditions especially neidan

Could you please give the title and author of the book?

Maybe I had big pharma all wrong,,,,

I'll confess i didn't read the entire article, but it seems the basic goal was really to remove the mysticism of qi in the western world so TCM would gain greater legitimacy. Which i think is a positive thing and classifying qi as "energy" for the layperson is completely acceptable. After all, part of cultivation is a continuous shift of perception, so i don't see why a laypersons definition of qi hinders a deepening of understanding of qi as the practitioners spiritual journey unfolds, shifts and evolves. Also i think any interest from the science community in jing, qi, sheng, so on, is a positive thing and should be met with encouragement from the daoist community.

yeah 100% agree that's why its always better to learn from a living lineage with someone that can accurately translate these concepts into a format that you can understand first hand i feel like alot of this thread is people who mostly have the same understanding talking around each other haha

I think the comparison the article makes would have worked better in a Buddhist context where the focus is predominantly on the mind. Daoist cultivation also has a big focus on Ming (body/vitality) which makes the comparison kind of weak, even if the end result is comparable, the path to get there is extremely different. Comparing end results rather than actual practice seems unwise. I think the real take away from the article from an average Christians POV is Buddhist meditations may help their mind reach closer proximity to that of Christ. Which again seems to ignore something rather major..... Christian mysticism exists and already includes meditative and contemplative practices... Which makes it seem the author just found 2 comparable end results and wanted to find unifying practices, lacking the understanding of really either tradition. The conclusion of the article again highlights the comparability of the 2 end results, while instead it's real conclusion should just have been something along the lines of "Christians could probably benefit from developing a daily meditative practice". Anyway, thanks for the share @Haribol, it at least gave a slight insight into Jungian thought.

Language is a determining factor in the formation of an individual's conceptual world. Without enough mastery of the original language, concepts will necessarily be flawed since the system allowing us to form them in our minds will be lacking. By learning through translations, or even in the current version of the langage, one learn 2nd, 3rd... 100, 000th hands informations about the original meaning of these sounds and symbols.

Before our court case , near everyone abandoned us ( being 4 in number ) and even people on our side ( meaning they would be severely impacted by a decision against us ) had not only that fear , but joined them in their prosecution of themselves .... I know , nuts . Our solicitor and 'big knob' solicitors headed for the hills . Everyone told me to back off . . '' Thats the Attorney - General !!! '' I did a divination from the art of war ; it was about not fearing those in high office with robes and trappings of authority ; they might be dressed up idiots , maybe they got there through bribes, relatives or corruption . I could not have got a clearer message , so I went for it . Tore 'em a new one , I did . [ and yesterday while looking at what AI had to say about our community , it was wrong . I argued with it and it insisted (it said under 'cy-pres' doctrine the Attorney general can seize a communities land and assets if it was set up as a 'spiritual community' and the AG considered it no longer was fulfilling its aims , or they had changed ... what 'spirituality does not evolve or change ? ) . I referred it to our court case and it acknowledged its mistake . I asked if it would change its entry on the subject, include it and show its significance . Now AI shows we had land mark case and win and this has protected all spiritual communities in the state against land and asset seizure by the Attorney General . ] .... you're welcome communes ! ( sarcasm , as no one except a few people can even dimly comprehend the issue and results, even people that were threatened by it ...... roos in the headlights* ! ) * It means a person is so frightened, surprised, or confused by an unexpected situation that they freeze up and are unable to move, think, or react.

I've gotten to the point where I hardly think at all. I've tamed my mind, and my desire. I sit in the quiet of no thought. The Buddha was most wise to identify desire as a root of the human condition. It seems that we simply can't get enough of satisfying our cravings. I feel it, and it makes me suffer, because I realize that this is really all we are; desire is all life is. All we have is satisfying our wants. It makes me sad, how transient life is! Just to live and want and do, and then die! Even in the afterlife, should there be one, the cycle continues.

A quick google gave me this: In the context of Yi Jin Jing (Muscle/Tendon Changing Classic), the Chinese character 黃 (huáng) refers to the fascia and web of connective tissues (the "yellow" substance filling spaces) Whether it's the correct character, i have no idea, i'm not chinese. You can look up the Yi Jin Jing and find the character in there i suppose.

I respect your wide knowledge on the subject. I will leave it at this.

To get a complete comprehension of the Tao Te Ching should not be by preference. It requires an open mind with wisdom, intelligence and good judgment.

No, the two devices cannot be used to cross read them. The two kinds of signals require a different device to read them. However, humans are being bilingual, American or Chinese may read both languages. Of course, the accuracy of the meaning or interpretation depends on the comprehension of each individual. The written Chinese is not any different than English. It just a difference in language. There are classic Chinese and colloquial English. Some may not able to read them. However, there should be no reason for some others not able to comprehend. For example, the Tao Te Ching was written with ancient style of characters and classic meaning. Indeed, the need of a proper device to extract them which is a knowledge native person. Otherwise, the modern people would have no way to understand them.

推拿 (tui2 na3) Tui Na , Chinese medical massage [not to be confused with 吐纳 (tu3 na4) qigong breathing] Idk. I will just translate 氣 (qi4) as ‘qi’ , then everyone can make up their own minds. I think qi is one’s sexuality, healthy sexuality balances yin and yang (dare I say it ) energies.

Chinese Massage Manual: A Comprehensive, Step by Step Introduction to the Healing Art of Tui Na by Sarah Pritchard Very good book

Yes, you are referring to the Wu Wei way. That is the way it should be. I couldn't agree more. Thanks for mentioning it.

Yes, it is very true that the Chinese really don't care. I had been asking many fellow men. My answer from them was that "chi is chi" with a smile. They do not give a final answer. However, an English speaker would demand an answer. So, a Chinese would say "it is "energy." I was told by a TCM herbalist, chi could be meant it is the function of an organ as an esoteric meaning in TCM. When they say "the chi of an organ was blocked". It was actually meant "the organ is malfunction." Somehow, the translation came across the west ended up "the energy of the organ was blocked." If we think about it, If chi is so mighty, how can it be blocked so easily with anything. Does that make any sense to you? Unfortunately, I could not accept this blockage logic. Could anyone of you?

In English format, the term Neidan implies it is the method to obtain neidan (internal elixir). In Chinese format, it was understood as 內丹术。术: method; technique.

Makes me think about the differences between analog and digital signals.

I'll second this. Well if it's any consolation, there's high quality english translations of chinese daoist text that does a good job at being nuanced and not over-simplifying the chinese texts or their concepts This is also why people should buy and own at least 1 or 2 good translations of daoist texts, to support high quality work. Hopefully encouraging publishing houses to keep supporting such work.

'Europe's Atlantis ' : Doggerland , , a vast fertile country with hills, rivers , settlements that existed during the ice age which gradually sank beneath the waves and was finished off by tsunami ( the Storegga event ) . * side note , see the blue 'lake' near 2 ; that and the water behind it , as the sea level rose , the valley between British Isles and Europe had all this water rushing down it and carving out the English Channel ....... a sight to behold ! https://medium.com/@tudorfinneran/doggerland-europes-atlantis-02d6a70e2507

Yes, I know. That is why the west was won. The reason I said that is because chi is only translated as "energy" to them. The reason I said "in the west" is because I want to see how people react to what I said.

Your translation literally differentiate between breath and Chi. I'm not sure why you keep saying "in the west", Chinese daoist view Chi as an energy or "subtle substance" as well. There's plenty of Chinese practitioners on youtube you can look up yourself. You're free to pursue whatever path you believe is the correct one, but don't try to overturn well established concepts. It only muddies discussions and benefits no one.

Lucifer means to carry or bring life and was associated to Venus as the 'Morning Star' while Venus as 'Evening Star; was called Noctifur - bringer of night . The name did not have Christian association with their 'Devil ' until the Latin Vulgate bible mis-translation of Isaiah 14 : 12 ; helel . (הֵילֵל), ' shining one' , 'morning star ' - referring to the King of Babylon ( sort of ; you are bright now but will fade and disappear when the Sun rises . ) In theosophy Lucifer is sort of opposite to Ahriman - specifically in anthroposophy - which has its own take on Ahriman . But christians see them as opposites , however Christ and Lucifer are the same linguistically and in Rev 22:16 Jesus claims to be 'bright Morning Star ' - Lucifer . In the later Avesta Ahriman is the destructive spirit ruling over all 'bad ' things and opposing the 'Lord' Ahura Mazda . In the old Avesta 'spirit' is 'mind' (mainyu ) and Ahriman is that potential for our minds to become negative , opposing , evil , selfish, anti-social .

Just a quick aside. If what we're trying to understand is a large area, by that i mean it either permeates many other things (presence) or it affects many other things (cause and effect), then one approach could be: If it's presence is found in many things, choose a thing were you believe it's easiest to remove it's presence and remove it. The effect of it's absence should give a hint to why it was present to begin with. If it's effect can be found on many things, choose 2 things it affects and compare the difference of effect between the 2 things. Might help you, might not Good luck.

If i get it right, you are reffering to two different phases of a same cycle? Practiced separatedly through different technics or together as one within any technics ? Thank you for sharing, it allows me to verify and confirm once again the principles behind my own practice. In any serious investigation into the nature of things it makes sense that personal beliefs and opinions should be left out of the way. For instance, i try to understand where heavy loaded concepts such as morality could fit into a study of the inherent principles of Life? Of course it's perfectly fine to have one's own personal beliefs and opinions, a lot of key scientists in history had their own, maybe that was their talent or trained abilities to know how to make and understand differences that allowed them to not mix things up.

Well… information is information, and I found it to be a wonderful story. And stories works on many levels : ) First and foremost that parable (forgive me, Japanese YouTube short) illustrated the need to kill the vices in order to become more holy. I feel that at this moment, it is time to get serious, and let go of/«kill» what is harmful.