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And for some of us, especially those of the feline persuasion, I propose adding an enhanced version:

OK, here goes. My best friend has recently retired after a long and extremely busy career as a psychiatrist in a large New York hospital and various teaching positions in the city's colleges. While her training is 100% mainstream, a rather bad case of chronic back pain (which a surgery made worse) finally got her to look "somewhere else" for relief. I managed to get her interested in qigong, and she discovered that it's doing wonders for her problem. She practices every day now. But meditation -- no use to even mention it to her. That's because she saw the dark side of it among some of her patients. People would be meditating (or rather doing what they defined as meditation though I don't know what it was they were actually doing) for many years and then one day exit from their meditation straight into acute psychosis. She had several such cases over the years. So, earlier I mentioned "gates" that should not be broken forcefully or carelessly. They are (in our tradition) pathways of qi circulation in the body (the word for "gates," men 門 is familiar to many from the term "mingmen.") Their function also extends to stages or thresholds in spiritual development. And they are there for a reason. I used another term earlier -- "stopper." Gates that are closed are always closed for a reason. Opening them with a lock pick or a crowbar -- if you don't have the actual key -- may mean nasty surprises awaiting on the other side. (For a rather interesting reference -- check out (e.g.) the 2017 study titled “The Varieties of Contemplative Experience: A Mixed-Methods Study of Meditation-Related Challenges in Western Buddhists” by Willoughby B. Britton and colleagues, published in PLOS (Public Library of Science), a peer-reviewed scientific journal.)

What sort of cat are you ?!

That´s quite the list. I don´t want to argue about the accuracy of any of your assertions, but would like to point out the "gotcha" flavor of your post. It´s as if you´re saying "you say you shouldn´t hold beliefs about meditations but I found all of these beliefs so you must be a hypocrite." Is that the message you meant to convey? Few people respond well when backed into a rhetorical corner. Instead they throw up our hands, roll their eyes, send face palm emojis. Marriage counselers sometimes ask their clients a pointed question: do you want to be right or do you want to get along? You likely aren´t interested in marriage with Apech or Taomeow (a mutual feeling, I´m sure) but you might want to cultivate good relationships. Speaking for myself, I know that each of them has worlds of experience in meditation and spiritual practice. They have much to teach me.

Forum rules have recently changed to outlaw argument about "current events." Argument about meditation is still allowed, B"H.

Should you undertake that noble task, you´ll have one faithful reader in me.

My mom, like many health-conscious people, has tried to meditate. She thinks of meditation as one of those things a person has to do to live a long healthy life, something akin to eat right, exercise, get enough sleep, etc. But meditation never seems to go right for her. She doesn´t enjoy it and can´t "quiet her mind." Should I tell her that nobody can quiet their mind -- at least not for many months/years -- and that quieting her mind isn´t really the point? If she actually wanted to meditate that´s what I would say but she doesn´t. My mom wants to knit, to paint, to play scrabble, to go on walks with friends. I think she´s doing just fine without meditation.

I still don't quite get your focus on 'beliefs about meditation' - for me meditation is a praxis and I don't really have beliefs about it - just experience and results. I think the key to this and other subjects is intent. Why are you doing it and what is the purpose. Most (prob 90%) of meditation taught in the West is just beginner stuff - necessarily light and without much depth. The teaching focusses on learning a technique of some kind. Usually people think that this is about chilling out and relaxing - getting a break from the pressures of daily life - or even the dreaded mindfulness. I think all this should be replaced with normal healthy living. If you have 'spiritual' ambitions like enlightenment and so on then this is a different issue. Because it is quite likely to make you more disturbed and less relaxed - at least in the short term. Meditation should never be taught as a therapy IMO. It is too dangerous.

I guess you could call it that. I don’t really have a name for it. I don’t generally do it as a formal practice, more when interacting with a person or when they come up in my mind for whatever reason. I don’t really try to generate love or kindness, rather I connect with the sense of openness in my heart and mind, and let that person be there, and allow any reactivity coming up in me to fade. When it fades, what generally is left is a sense of openness, warmth or kindness which is less forced and more spontaneous.

Hello Everyone I’m looking for spiritual practices to help me stay grounded in my own energy while being around others. For example, Qigong helps me find my center again, and I often ask myself, “Is this feeling truly mine or coming from someone else?” I’m curious if you use other clear techniques or rituals that help with this? If you’d like to discuss broader personal experiences (such as general sensitivity or longer stories), please DM me — I’m happy to listen privately. Otherwise, the thread can get a bit overwhelming and I might end up missing some helpful tips. For this thread, please share only practical tips, exercises, rituals related to sensing other peoples energetic Thank you — I’m looking forward to your helpful, focused tips!

A good friend has been teaching tsa lung trul khor at the MD Anderson Cancer Center in Texas for over 25 years as a part of their Integrative Health program. I spent a few years working with a therapist who used a variant of CBT known as ACT (Acceptance Commitment Therapy). It did not use meditation techniques much per se but did use principles and views that inform meditative philosophy and practice in a way that was very effective for me.

In the dzogchen tradition, the core practice is sometimes referred to as "non-meditation" for this reason. Occasionally, I see the word contemplation being used, which comes from the Latin verb contemplatio, referring more to the act of looking or observing rather than thinking or reflecting. Interestingly, as a native English speaker I've somehow come to associate contemplation more with thinking and meditation more with simply abiding or being. Not sure how that interchange came about.

a ‘gut’ feeling “It [meditation] helps to restore the balance of gut bacteria, improving gut barrier function and reducing inflammation. Emerging research underscores the positive impact of regular meditation practice on gut health. https://www.news-medical.net/health/Exploring-the-Connection-Between-Gut-Health-and-Meditation.aspx#:~:text=It%20helps%20to%20restore%20the,meditation%20practice%20on%20gut%20health.

The word "meditation" originates from the Latin verb meditari, which means to think, contemplate, or reflect.

from your list, these are the ones I like:  silent sitting, uniting with the Dao from the heart for religious reasons to clear the mind sit and empty the mind meditation is about seeing things as they really are meditation can bring clarity, balance, order, and harmony meditation is beneficial for calming down when upset meditation can be simple and straightforward meditation is being awareness is flow, not forcing or hoarding

the post is to illustrate using examples, what beliefs about meditation look like. And as stated, it is for discussion about the beliefs and views, not about people posting. my interest is discussing, clarifying, exploring, learning about, and understanding the beliefs. it is not about the people. every voice and view on this forum has something to offer. Disagreement and different view points are part and parcel of any robust discussion.

Yes, that’s me too.

I have found in the qi gong world there are some practices which intentionally direct and move and push qi around to specific parts of the body through specific routes; compared to other qigong practices which specifically AVOID and actively WARN AGAINST doing that very same thing. They still cultivate qi but the qi is not forced to certain areas, instead it is allowed to flow to wherever it goes in the body. My preference and affinity is for allowing flow of the qi and not using force on the qi. I trust the wisdom of the body and the wisdom of the qi, to flow where it is needed, and taking the route that is optimal. I do not impose it. For this reason i actively avoid practices which move qi around through a specific route to a specific destination. There are many associated risks and dangers to forcing and directing qi. Some of these have been mentioned in this thread. I absolutely agree (and medical documentation and literature supports this) that there are medical and personal history contra-indications for qi gong and meditation. And that some forms are inherently riskier than other forms, even for someone without medical contraindications. I opt always for gentle and safe, that's just me. There is always a safe and gentle method (That is my belief) for me to approach whatever it is, whether that is qigong or meditation.

Thanks for putting in the time to collect the info. That’s the sort of communication I like, informative, constructive and from the heart.

Here is a list with more examples of beliefs about meditation, all of which are taken directly from this thread alone. and yes as stated above, this is discussing the beliefs, ideas, views, opinions, not the people posting them more beliefs about meditation / all are from this thread meditation is about seeing things as they really are The meditator is doing things inside the body -- moving energy, gathering elemental forces, setting up a cauldron, etc silent sitting, uniting with the Dao from the heart for religious reasons to clear the mind a process leading to realization it is an advanced stage for a student, usually requiring a bunch of prerequisites, physical and mental priming it's not something as simple and straightforward as some believe meditation can be simple and straightforward Most (prob 90%) of meditation taught in the West is just beginner stuff, light and without much depth meditation should never be taught as therapy it is too dangerous there are safe and gentle forms of meditation sit and empty the mind quieting the mind is not the point of meditation the dreaded mindfulness meditation has therapeutic benefits awareness is flow, not forcing or hoarding should not sit down to meditate with goal of calming down when upset, or settling feelings thoughts in disarray should not sit down to meditate when physically unwell meditation is beneficial for calming down when upset meditation can help when physically unwell meditation can bring clarity, balance, order, and harmony it is a healthy, nurturing, nourishing, loving self-care practice it is a way to see reality meditation is being some forms of meditation are more useful for shifting emotional states, than other forms neigong and inner alchemy don't want to pilot a space ship in an out-of-balance emotional state

My take? The face palm is an expression of exasperation. We´ve all had the experience of being misunderstood, of having our words taken out of context or twisted, of being verbally hurt. Sometimes when this happens the best way to come back to center is to express exasperation, and the face-palm emoji is a way of doing that online.

no, not wrong. different belief, different view, different opinion

yes totally. that is very important very true, i am working on this nice rule this is already part of my pratice looks like i am already learning the things you recommend me. nice thank you

I don’t think a face-palm emoji is conductive to further interesting exchanges of views/information. I think it is a total bloc to communication.

On DBs we are free to express opinions and ideas - you can’t limit that by making these kinds comments ( which are by the way passive aggressive in their own way)

I do find the face-palm emoji rather ‘passive aggressive’.

They say not to use meditation to deal with out-of-whack emotions, but this thread is weirdly full of conflict between Bums I like -- surely a little deep breathing couldn´t hurt?

Why do you think it is ‘face-palmy’ for me to have this opinion?

Some people meditate for decades, believing it will eventually bring ‘enlightenment’.

bold above is an example of a belief about meditation

Yes, absolutely. and i 100% support that.

Yes I think I could write a 50 page essay on the idea that meditation is about quieting your mind. Its one of the circular problems with meditation that the idea that you have when you start pre-conditions the experience. It would be better to ask like a kind of koan 'why is my mind so noisy?' ... if one is going to bother going down that route at all. At least that is an open enquiry and not a kind of demand or request for service.

and for starters, think of them as physical practices. focus on the physical, on your physical body. not spirit, not your etheric body, not energy, not your light body. feet on the ground run cold water over your hands and wrists, up to the elbow. sit on the edge of the tub and put your feet under running cold water.

practical tips to stay grounded while around others. if it is unsettling (ungrounding) to be around others, then limit the time and duration. spend as much time as you can NOT being around others so you can get a clearer sense of what is you and what is yours set and maintain and keep clear personal boundaries in all interactions and association with others. cultivate activities in your life which are grounding: put your hands in the dirt, lots of time in nature, walk on the dirt paths or grass when possible, hang out with trees, garden, houseplants. spend time sitting on the floor for any daily activities. when i was working full time in an office, surrounded all day by 30 or 40 people literally all in the same (big) room i took every opportunity that i could to be by myself. So every lunch and every break i left the building and went outside and either walked in nature or sat in my car reading. I also willingly took on any tasks and duties during the work day which included walking outside the building. Everyone on my team loved this because nobody else wanted to do these tasks. for some, being around other people makes them feel more enlivened (it charges them up like a battery) they find it to be positive and actively seek it out. For others, being around other people is draining and exhausting and unsettling, they find it negative and actively seek to limit it. I am in that category. a good rule of thumb i have used is that whatever amount of time is spent "out in the ethers" then an equal or greater amount of time is spent on physical grounding activities such as hands in the dirt gardening, walking in nature. if someone spends 2 hours where they leave the body, then spend at least 2 hours walking in nature or hands in the dirt gardening. Balance is essential. same is true for receiving any type of body work. if a bodyworker knows what they are doing they will tell you this as part of your after care. if you receive "energy work" then it has to be grounded afterwards for your own balance. I traveled to Canada to receive a series of sessions of bodywork from a practitioner. It was all "hands off" meaning without touch. She requires her clients after sessions to not only rest and drink a lot of water, but to physically go outside and walk in nature for several hours. get in the habit of picturing roots coming out of the bottom of your feet, and growing deep deep into the earth. Root yourself to the earth.

Two monks were arguing about a flag. One said: "The flag is moving." The other said: "The wind is moving." The sixth patriarch happened to be passing by. He told them: "Not the wind, not the flag; mind is moving."

We don't look at actual reality itself, but rather the energy and information being exchanged in our mind. The job of the brain is to create an experience which represents the reality outside of us. Whatever reality is it looks nothing like the experience we are having of it. At best the reality we experience has representational value, like a painting of a pipe represents a pipe.

Different animals embody different attributes of the Great Spirit. When a human embodies the same qualities they label it by the animal that has that quality aswell. It's a symbolic representation of the quality that comes from the great I AM. Ego is a quality the great spirit takes when it's under the spell of ignorance. I AM in it's most truthful form is nothing but light.

Thanks for the welcome!

Thanks, I didn't know that. Of course meditation is not the most dangerous thing a person can undertake, but it's not something as simple and straightforward as the West has come to believe. In formal taoist training it is an advanced stage for a student, usually requiring a bunch of prerequisites, physical and mental priming. Personally I believe that not leaving one's breath alone may sometimes be a bad idea for a beginner... and without proper guidance, for everybody. Breath is different from other brain stem-mediated functions in that it has a second set of controls in the cerebral cortex, so it can be both involuntary and voluntary. You can't "decide" in your mind on where to set your resting heart rate, blood pressure, body temperature, etc. if you are not trained accordingly for a long time and in the proper modality. But with breath you can, the neocortex can interfere in that function because it "wants" or "believes" something... In some cases this access, bypassing the autopilot, may backfire. The brain stem stores the earliest, and hence the worst, of the developmental traumatic patterns -- one could have been traumatized so early, e.g. at birth or in early infancy, that the cerebral cortex wasn't even there yet, so it couldn't possibly record the memory -- but the brain stem was, and did. Triggering that pattern by taking voluntary control of breathing without conscious access to those patterns (aka systemically retrieving an unconscious memory and making it accessible to consciousness) may be potentially detrimental. And I believe it explains things like "meditation psychosis" and "qigong sickness" etc. in all cases.

The animal nature is there because of ignorance. In the light of who you truly are, your animal nature dissolves because it's born of illusion. The physical body itself would vanish into light in the full recognition of who you are. Yes it's important not to deny those manifestations born of ignorance but identifying yourself with it only strengthens the illusion and self-deception. Your true nature is I AM and nothing else. Indigenous people see all animals and all life forms as a unique manifestation of I AM or the Great Spirit. In that sense yes, humans are just another life form but true identity of every life form is the Great Spirit anyways. Indigenous people know this.

and sometimes i also need blunt or graphic reminders for myself at times, to keep me from spinning out, things like: "Resentment is like eating rat poison and waiting for the other person to die." When i am in a less than lofty mindset, then i use less than lofty inspirational tools. I meet myself where i am at.

Except your brain is a bit bigger ..... no ? Here is a dish distinctly Persian ; Fresenjan , it goes back to ancient ( Sassanian ) times , made mostly from walnuts and pomegranate .Fresenjan Morg or even Fresenjoon Ordak ( duck , but its very rich, so usually I made the chicken version . ) Served with rice - Persians make excellent and unusual rice dishes , some times platters of rice come out , all made a different way . Tahdig . When I first started working for my Iranian boss he said; " I make the best rice today , and you will get a chance to taste real Persian cooking ." Afterwards he asked me what I thought , "Not very good, a rush job for people you think know no better ." "What ! What would you know about it ?" " I know its not proper Tahdig .... proper Tahdig is not proper until the cook brings it out and shows it to that part of the table where the older aunties sit , it is presented to the head unhappy auntie that looks growling at you , then she will take a spoon and turn it over and wack the top of the rice with the back of the spoon . It should crack, and then she will smile and the rice may be served ." He was " How on earth do you know about that ! ? : ( I had previously worked in refugee relocation during the aftermath of the Iranian Islamic revolution and after families were relocated they would often invite me around for the extended family meal . ) Two Fresnjan tricks ; keep the onions whole and slice rings as thin as possible . What difference could that make ? Well, it did, it made a surprising difference . Don't worry if your sauce seems like a disaster of clotted split lumpy nastiness .... keep going , stirring and watching it , then at the crucial moment the texture will change to a nice rich thick smooth sauce . . . then stop .

I remember once in therapy we were discussing the homework which the counselor gave me, which was along the lines of "feeling some warmth" towards well the people i was LEAST inclined to give that to. I flat out refused with of course my own long drawn out litany why i absolutlely could not and would not do that. She however insisted that it was necessary and required (my homework) me to come up with ONE positive thing about every person in my life i found "difficult". It was torture but i did it. I was in the midst of a very messy painful divorce including court appearances (hence the therapy was needed) so that was the person i had the hardest time coming up with something positive. But I did and i was very proud of myself, and i found that the technique actually worked, when i noticed myself getting upset or angry or spinning in drama, i conjured up the positive thought, "He is really good at picking out the best peaches in the grocery store." That was 32 years ago, and it is still a technique that i use today. To find one positive trait in any and every person that annoys me for whatever reason. And i have to agree with post above that regarding the last item on the list, it works most effectively for me when bringing up warm feelings of the heart, to do it from the level of my soul, and not from the level of my personality. At the soul level yes it feels genuine. Whereas at the personality level i can trip myself up.

I don't like the way you communicate here, is all. It doesn't involve hostility and vitriol, it's more like, oh gawd, he's engaging with what I write again, in his interesting way... Please... not again. Why don't you stay out of my hair, I already asked you in another thread, didn't I? Take your prolific wisdom somewhere where my posts aren't and we'll be mighty fine. I am not going to engage you -- just don't bite first.

I think there may be a divergence of thought on what exactly meditation is.

Not you presumably.

WHO CARES??????

Hi Wandering. Lots of experience there. I guess you deserve a 'gong'. Jokes aside, welcome to the forum. Enjoy.