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ignore them, just be your grumpy self

Should it? I´m not sure but think this is a great question for discussion. Do you have any perspective on this, @stirling? My own experience is that meditation is definitely not fun. I´ve sat for several vipassana retreats and each experience was worthwhile but decidedly not fun. Sometimes I experienced physical discomfort, often I experienced emotional discomfort. There was plenty of joy too but it mostly appeared after I´d faced difficulty. On the other hand, I think there´s great value in gentleness. I´m something of a Type A personality, always wanting to do more and perform, and I bring these traits to my spiritual practice, not always a good thing. I could probably stand to be more compassionate with myself and stop meditating when it gets hard. Or maybe not???

"Zen is turning a complicated mind into a simple mind. If you have a simple mind, you can do everything and there is no hindrance anywhere." --- Korean Zen Master Seung Sahn

In an earlier thread Stirling and I had a chat about meditation. I said that it didn’t work for me, and Apech replied that meditation is one of the worst thought subjects out there. So, that leads to the question: how is it done correctly? What even is it? Ofc, I could (and have) googled it, but I’d much rather here what experienced bums has to say. Thank you

Obviously, it depends on what one means by meditation. If you mean samadhi, then one the method is fairly simple as set forth in the Yoga Sutras. 1. Follow a moral code. 2. Choose an "object" of meditation. 3. Disengage from other objects. 4. Place your mind on the object of meditation. 5. Repeat 3-4.

several decades ago, a counselor gave me a question to use on, well, just about anything in my life that i was doing, or trying to do, or thinking about doing or pushing myself to do. Ask myself: Is this a "want to" or a "should" a related colorful quote and reminder for myself (not from the counselor, but from a recovery group): Don't should on me. This applies to others who may be shoulding on me; and also to myself if I am shoulding on myself.

In my experience too, at times it’s not for the faint hearted. Aligning with the Dao/the water, initially caused fear and panick. Eventually results come from sitting through it. But imo best to take it at a pace that’s comfortable, I listen to myself.

Agreed.

The topic of meditation has always been an interest of mine. However, I do not know what others know. My knowledge is limited to my experiences. For instance, I was never told what the purpose of sitting cross leg and setting the mind on a single task was meant to do. It was called meditation. But, according to some, there are different methods. So, what is the method (i used) and what does it do (to my mind) and what is the purpose (to bring to the present)? I started with watching breath go in and come out. At first I counted the breaths. Then went simpler to just saying in on the in breath and out on the out breath. So what does that do? I was told that the mind is constantly active. Creating its own world. That meditation would relax the mind and make it more focused. Words like one pointed concentration were thrown around. The practice has changed from watching breath to just sitting with the mind and listening to the quiet. Being present. Most of the time the narration of events or how one perceives the world is constantly creeping in. I just want to sit and be present in the quiet. To let go of this thinking mind. One person told me that he figured his way to enlightenment. The way was to stop thoughts. But, the method I was taught was to let the thoughts go. Not to chase them nor follow them. Not to suppress them for that causes them to come up more frequently. So, I believe that the method is to release ourselves from the thinking mind. Not to stop thoughts. To experience our self. I may be delusional in my thinking. And all my efforts are for naught. But when I sit in the quiet, ... I do not want to leave, to stop. However, I do slump and fall over in sleep at times. I have given up on the purpose and where I am in terms of stages. I guess meditation is what one makes of it. The How-to, ... well that depends on who one listens to or how one is taught.

When people think about justice, then, they want revenge . If one don't get even with that person, the emotional pain won't go away. However, from a Taoist / Buddhist point of view, if one can just let it go and don't think about justice, then, the pain will go away. No matter what the situation is, one always keep one's poise and emotionless. Just treat like it is none of your business. One cannot change whatever had been happened already and can't do anything about it, then, just let it go. That is what cultivation of the mind was all about. Perhaps, this is not something that a normal person can handle. Peace!

I'm not certain what exactly brought me here. I grew up Christian, turned away, found esoterica, and then found the Tao De Ching. It blew me away, and ever since, I've felt like there has been a pit in my chest when not pursuing it. I'm here searching for resources to deepen my understanding on a fundamental level and meet some like-minded people. All the way from New Zealand

Walking in nature once or twice a day. quiet sitting deep diaphragmatic breathing qi gong that is eyes closed and verrrrrrrry slow observe and let go be the sky and watch the the passing clouds (thoughts, feelings, distractions) just float on by stillness, silence, spacious (thanks DocBenway-Steve for recommending the Luminous Mind book) drop into the core floor sitting with accupressure, self massage, EFT (tapping), listening to body, limb unwinding peace be still. be still and know that I AM these are done throughout the day; and also in specific "dedicated time" set aside which i document to ensure practice is consistent.

Even now after decades after 25 or so minutes the concept BORING still hits me when I'm meditating. On the other hand my 2nd most pleasurable time is the twilight when I'm just waking up- body perfectly relaxed, mind open..conscious..luxuriously quiet. The state I aim for in meditation. I enjoy guided meditations but they are crutches. I think guided breathing rhythms are closer to meditation. There's a nice 7in-7hold-7out audio that I like, lasts 30 minutes of a 3 breath a minute cycle. Watching my timing, how close I am starting and ending each cycle mindfully to the tones. How many thoughts appear during the 30 minutes. It's good training.

In my experience, yes. Yes it has, and yes it does. All of the above.

Since I was mentioned I thought I would reply. I think @Surya you meant 'taught' not 'thought' ... so one of the worst taught subjects out there. Agreed. It is badly taught. My approach is to say that if you do it (and many people including probably most Buddhists don't) then it is the most important thing you do. There are a very large number of techniques for meditation (which I have heard by a great Lama described as 'toys') none of which are anything other than that. Just techniques - which may or may not be useful depending on how applied. Even then those techniques only seek to replicate or encourage processes which naturally happen in your body or your mind. Motivation is the starting point. You want to be relaxed? Ok have a cup of tea and listen to some ambient music ... or go for a walk in the park. You want powers? You'll probably end up with haemorrhoids and myopia. So what do you want? Ask yourself that first. Spend a long time asking yourself. If you have problems you'd like to cure ... why have you got those problems in the first place. Do you have an explanation for that? Did they just drop on you like cosmic bird shit from heaven? Or do they arise from somewhere for some reason? Why would sitting down to meditate have any relevance to that? Maybe you want some kind of relief. A break from stress? Maybe you want your thoughts to stop? Maybe you want better health. All reasonable things to want. But will meditation help you with this? Well maybe but then you will have turned it into your therapy. So no. Meditation is not therapy. It might actually make you feel worse! If you still want to meditate don't start with your mind so much. Just start with your body. Don't worry about thoughts and feelings that come and go. Just settle your body like a cat does. Just sit for a short while. That's a beginning. Expect nothing. You won't be disappointed.

Do people actually still take his work seriously given that: "Today Castaneda is dismissed as a hoaxer, a fraud, a sexual predator, a cult leader and maybe a psychopath. His books continue to sell, but his academic credibility is zero;" and the books were "published in 1968 as a work of anthropology though it is now widely considered a work of fiction." Sources: article by Daniel Miller 2023; and Wikipedia

This is the "self" realizing that it has dropped out and grasping at its illusory existence. It is not uncommon. Yes... no need to force anything.

Meditation is just being. When the mind is still it is no different from enlightened mind. It has no qualities. There is no "self" when the mind is stilled, so no-one to own those qualities. Many students will get up from a meditation session and say that they feel so good... so relaxed. They will ask themselves why the don't do it more often. Later when you ask them how they feel about it they say it is "difficult" or "a struggle". This is the thinking mind talking. Often a student will say, "I don't enjoy meditation. It is boring." My response is always, "If it is boring, there is an "I" there. Bring your mind back to stillness." Depending on the technique, Vipassana is often a much more effortful and exhausting practice. Shamatha practices are much more about just "being", especially Zen and Dzogchen. We could probably all use more compassion in our approach to life. _/\_

«Contemplate is from Latin contemplatus, past participle of contemplari "to gaze attentively, observe," from the prefix com- "together" plus templum "temple."»

Another thread about meditation being difficult at times:

Yes, I agree.

Hello everyone! My name is James I’m from Sydney Australia - Korean by background. I got super interested in Daoism from my backround. And I’ll be going Wudangshan Five Immortals Temple to do some neidan training in Sept!

This! Meditation is not taking on complicated intellectual ideas, instructions, actions, etc., it is DROPPING all of that and allowing mind to be what it actually is. Meditation is not a technique or practice, it is the moment that technique and practice fall away and there is stillness. It is actually something that the mind does naturally all the time and takes NO EFFORT. In fact, it is effort that impedes it. Most people will stumble across stillness within a week or so of adopting a simple daily practice like watching the breath, or putting attention on an object. With someone experienced available to point out what stillness is, most will recognize it in that time and then eventually be able to drop the practice and just witness the action of mind for seconds at a time or more. Within a month or so there will be brief periods of resting the mind in stillness. Continuing the practice of resting the mind in its own nature is transformative.

What is the quality of a simple mind. What are its signs and features? What is its conditions and attitude towards phenomena? How does it react towards phenomena? Why do certain minds decide to act in one way instead of another way? How was this mind convinced to incline towards simplicity, instead of complications? What are the practices and gradual methods to tame this mind. What level is the restraint imposed on the wild mind, and what are the treats, rewards we offer/ bring awareness to for it to understand the benefits of being tamed and cooled down. For it to understand for itself. Good questions to ask. The mind is a wild animal we picked up in this life, that does not know how to "be" on its own. It requires training, taming. It requires convincing. Like a wild animal, you begin with proper restraint. Not abuse. But healthy restraint with virtue. Virtue is very uncomfortable in the world, but gradually it beara fruits, unburdens the mind from many nonsense and potential bad results from bad action. Sets up an opportunity/ chance for the mind to achieve neutral abiding due to the unburdened lifestyle, conduct. At the awareness of a neutral abiding, the mind is cooled, at rest, collected, powerful, and awaits instructions. You direct the mind to that quality, and show itself that reward, peacefulness, and proof that is the state of has been attempting to acquire, but could not on its own. Recognized you as its master. A tamed mind, abides its masters command.

I don´t know Oscar personally but he is very approachable so you can write to him and ask him many things about his system. He interviewed Matyas Dally, so you can find the video in his site or channel (I don´t remember where).

Exactly. E.g. the end of DDJ ch. 51 (MWD A, Henricks): 7. 生 而 弗 有 也 (sheng1 er2 fu2 you3 ye3) [The Way] It gives birth to them but doesn't try to own them; 8. 為 而 弗 志 (ch. 2 恃) 也 (wei4 zhi4) It acts on their behalf but doesn't make them dependent; 9. 長 而 勿 宰 也 (zhang3 wu4 zai3) It matures them but doesn't rule them. 10. 此 之 謂 玄 德 (ci3 wei4 xuan2 de2) This we call Profound Virtue.

Allow yourself to wander around, read about, explore, learn about, hear about a variety of different traditions, types, methods. Follow your intuition and try things out. Observe what may or may not be a fit for you. When reading about a teacher or training or method or technique pay attention to your internal responses. Are you seeing red flags or does it induce a sense of peace and well-being even reading about it. For instance, is the tone bossy, or is it nurturing. Is it contentious, or calming. Is the language abrasive and critical, or is it respectful and uplifting. Is it force and control, or is it rest and observe. Does it demand obedience and impose hierarchy, or are you recognized and valued. How compatible is it with your belief system, world view, values, ethics, and path. Does it include and value humor, and joy. Is the focus and organizing principle magic and powers; or is it divinity and enlightenment. Are "special powers" considered a goal to be pursued, or are they seen as a barrier and distraction. That sort of thing. What is the correct meditation? The one that fits you best. Trust your intuition. Give yourself permission to try different things, to change if something feels off, and to let go of anything that does not have your best interests at heart. What even is it? a. one of my favorite answers I ever heard is that prayer is talking to God and meditation is listening to the reply. b. it does not have to look a certain way. c. it is paying attention to and becoming familiar with your inner world d. another favorite of mine: observe and let it go. be the sky, . wispy clouds (thoughts and emotions) just float on by. e. drop into the core f. peace be still. Be still and know that I AM. g. stillness, silence, spacious (that is why my screen name is big sky, to keep that before me) h. pure awareness

There are many types of meditations, for many different purposes. They range from sitting to walking to varied movements, from immobile to slow or even faster. They may empty the mind yet some actively engage the conscious mind. Some can be learnt in 10 minutes and the others could take 10 years to start off. It is like walking. Walking is merely a process for your purposes.

Note added.

By attending a Vipassana retreat run by a Theravada Buddhist monastery. You'll be assigned a lay teacher, who'll have a minimum of ten years of experience. This is a mandatory baseline. Seated meditation is not the only way to practice meditation. Walking is a must and part of the practice Resources: https://retreat-infos.de/Download/RFAE2010.pdf https://www.dhamma.org/en-US/locations/directory Good luck! **EDITED Note: Here's some good advice from the abbot of the local Buddhist monastery close to where I live: https://www.dhammagiri.net/post/tips-for-new-meditators Maybe there is such a monastery in your location. Go have a look online.

I have found the book "Power of Now" by Eckhart Tolle to be a wonderful and helpful guide, $10 on Amazon. He also has many videos free on you tube, which give you a flavor. I love his Zen stories (I am partial to Zen) and he makes a serious subject quite funny.

You cannot learn meditation like this. Plenty of people out there have mastered meditation art through wikiHow and ChatGPT, and are offering guidance on how to do it - quick and easy. I have seen people claiming that anyone can master meditation, that it is easy, and requires nothing, and honestly, these claims sound full-scale retarded. Retardation and mental ailments are commonly met on online platforms and can be spread for free, unlike meditation skill that takes quite a bit of effort and investment. For a meditation skill to bloom, multiple of the requirements have to be met. About 10 years of daily dedicated practice - that is the bare minimum. A proper energy development. You must be thriving with an excess energy cultivated on every chakra. An awakening of upper mental bodies. That would also mean shedding your human (mortal) self. A power transmission (probably many times that). I have no knowledge of anyone skilled doing that for free, that is comparable to blood transfusion. An opened third eye. A legit tradition / lineage, with other "living" masters. All of the above is still the baseline for meditation skill, which has no limits. The public in general does not have any intention of finding or accepting the truth. Even talking about reality would cause adverse reactions. They usually want to bring reality to their expectations and meditation to their existing capabilities. If "I can do this," that means this is meditation.

Great topic Surya! I look forward to hearing and reading responses.

I can appreciate that there are many many methods and techniques which people use and find helpful. This forum is a good resource in that regard. Readers benefit.

The common denominator in every problem, obstacle, barrier or situation in my life is: me. There are no coincidences, and everything that happens in my daily life is a reflection or outpicturing of my own inner state. So typically i ask myself things like "What does this situation ask of me?" "What is this situation showing me about myself?" "What does this situation bring up for me, what else is it triggering in me?" I remember once i was upset (again) about what a certain person had done and I cried out "Why do they keep pushing my buttons!!" and an acquaintance nearby said "No, your upset is not on them. They are your buttons and your reactions. Own it." She was kind of annoying but the point was valid. She is the same one who said another time, when we were hearing a musician perform and I said "oh that song makes me so happy" she said, "No. No one can make you feel a certain way. You are responsible for your own feelings." I am 100% responsible for how i respond to whatever the situation is. And it is my responsibilitly to deal with it in ways that support my health, vitality and well-being. It is very important to not see myself as a victim, and to not blame others for whatever is going on. Also not to blame myself. Taking responsibility does not mean i caused this or that to happen. It means I am responsible for doing whatever it takes to heal and move forward in my life. Emotional burdens are very heavy. Learning how to dissolve and release them is important for our health. Things may have happened in the past or in other lifetimes which affect me today. But the here and now is where and how I deal with it. Regardless of the origin. It is enough for me to know and trust that "what goes around comes around." I don't need to know or try and identify the specifics and details and point of origin. If others are acting out then they too are on their path, i don't need to know or see how their lessons unfold.

I have translated a work on architecture based mostly on indovedic civilization (Vastu). It is esoteric, and is not meant for publishing, so I will not quote his work. Sharing the concept of Brahmasthan, tho, I don’t think can do any harm. The Brahmasthan is considered the heart of the house and is the most important area to consider for positive energy flow. It's the central zone of a building, and ideally, it should be kept open, clutter-free, and well-lit. The Brahmasthan is associated with space and is believed to influence the overall well-being of the residents. note: have only scimmed the OP, but have now followed the thread and will read trough it at a later date. I will also show him this thread, and maybe he has some thoughts on it. Intruiging subject indeed

yes. i agree. back of everything physical, is the non-physical which generates the physical. the non-physical is the source of everything physical. therefore we can change and affect the physical, by working at the level of the non-physical. Our inner work results in changes in the outer world.

Try this: ACTIVE LOVE — THE TOOLS

My personal experience is that the more I am able to connect with the divine, the less BS bothers me.

regarding bold above, since Buddhism embraces both karma and reincarnation, then there are repercussions and "justice." Even though we do not see how or when the justice is administered, the system assures us that it does occur. So that is a source of peace. Our focus though is NOT on the other person, it is on our own self, our own growth, our own development, our own peace of mind, health, and well-being.

That certainly works if the instigator has given up. If, however, the astral or mental attack continues, it may be necessary to take action. The simplest is taking the incoming energy lines and dropping them into the Earth. The next layer of defense is building a light body imitation of oneself and attaching the incoming energy lines to the imitation. Most attackers are not smart enough to understand what is happening, so the target is free. A more assertive alternative is looping the flows around and redirecting them to the source. Mostly such attackers do not see they are attacking themself - and get worn out in a couple of days

i love love love this: (from same link as post just above) Commentary: This is the foundational oral instruction for the cultivation of the heart-mind through the refinement and the nourishing of self. Refinement of self is when external conditions strike the heart-mind and the heart-mind does not move. Nourishing the self is when internal dust does not arise, and clarity and stillness are constantly aware.

@goretex Damo's safety mechanism around Dantian training, is through refining yin qualities, to tame yang energy from creating unstable pressures and manifestations. It is good fundamentals, true, but I don't think it is enough to restraint the unstable quality of dantian building. What that kind of power becomes, depends on your cultivation and character that has been established many many years prior, and lifetimes. And that kind of character building is not just yin energy. It is your habitual life conduct and health in the mind. The success of dantian work, is depending on things not just in this lifetime. With Mark's methods, although the development of energy is released into space outside the body, we need to remember the fundemental rule of existence. All experience cannot be outside of "mind". All experience is actually an "internal" experience with our 6 sense basis. So this is still a very real internal development, of the physical layer, to the other layers. It is VERY difficult to ignore your insecurities, obstacles, blockages, flaws, defilements with Mark's methods. Because you work on all the layers, the mind cannot run from itself with this kind of training. There is alot of obvious benefits to that. If you trained under older masters, and listen to their caution, they will share very similar stories of themselves, and of masters they know who train internal body methods, dantian work, dantian power. The stories are always the same. They die early, they go blind, they go crazy, their personalities, desires become aggressive, etc. And it is specifically tied to their type dantian sinking training. To contain Qi in ways the body and mind is unable to handle or tame. My master took up Buddhism to develop the insight to filter out and abandon unhealthy training methods. The old branches of yang taiji through yang jianhou's lineages, inclines more towards mark rasmus theories. Where dantian is not really focused that way. It is just an area that is recognized to have a bigger "space" for chi to collect. But collection is not what they do. Energy just flows through it and fills to whatever ratio is available, and flows on. The practice is to purify and stabilize the energies. And when one later is stable to a certain extent, it creates a natural momentum to transform to the next later, jing qi shen, wuji, akasha etc.

Some beautiful and meaningful expressions Bindi! There is an intelligence of beauty that breaks the lonely heart with its goodness...

i like this. a lot.

she was burning bright across the sky...