Spotting a fake master

[idiot_stimpy]

What advice or tips would you give in order to help someone spot a fake master?

 

Someone saying they're enlightened when they really are not?

 

Is there anyway to actually tell?

[snowymountains]

Challenge everyone at the ideas, meditation techniques and experiences levels, do not accept self certification by anybody.

Self certification is irrelevant after all, you test what they teach in essence.

 

If they don't like that, go elsewhere.

If they use lots of extravagant BS-prone terminology, go elsewhere.

If they like that, stick around and see how it goes.

 

 

Of course the goal is not to get him to provide "perfect" answers for all possible questions, because that's impossible.

Nor will they know everything.

Nor will they have experienced everything.

Nor to cause him discomfort, eg you may prefer to debate on a 1-1 basis so that he doesn't fall back to defence mechanisms.

Nor will you agree on everything, they'll of course make some inaccurate statements too.

 

So in short, don't look for a flawless being because this doesn't exist, but do inquire for a high level of both knowledge, meditative technique and meditative experiences.

Otherwise it's simple, they're not worth your time.

 

If they're advanced spiritually you'll be able to tell after some time tbh without them making claims and while it's somewhat irrelevant of their knowledge level from a cognitive perspective, they tend to come with high cognitive skills too

 

Also if it's possible in that tradition, verify the teacher's lineage. Eg in Zen you can trace it fairly easily.

 

[kakapo]

57 minutes ago, idiot_stimpy said:

What advice or tips would you give in order to help someone spot a fake master?

 

Someone saying they're enlightened when they really are not?

 

Is there anyway to actually tell?

 

Is there good evidence for their abilities, documented on video with scientists present to try and debunk?

 

If yes, go investigate.

 

If no, assume they are a fake master.

[Keith108]

I would start with someone claiming enlightenment as an easy red flag. The best way I think though, is to observe the community around the master, and trust your intuition. 
 

🙏

[Apech]

1 hour ago, idiot_stimpy said:

What advice or tips would you give in order to help someone spot a fake master?

 

Someone saying they're enlightened when they really are not?

 

Is there anyway to actually tell?

 

I think there's only one way and that is close observation over a long period of time (12 years is quoted in texts).  Do they speak the truth?  Are their actions consistent with their words?  How do they conduct themselves?  How do people around them, their close followers behave towards them and each other?

 

This kind of thing.

 

I have never known a good teacher who made any claims about their own enlightenment - usually they downplay their own abilities compared to their own teachers.

 

 

[silent thunder]

The health of a tree is revealed by the condition of its fruit.

 

Echoing Apech, observation and time will reveal what is pertinent.

Edited March 1 by silent thunder
Viking thumbz

[liminal_luke]

I don't put much energy into spotting fake masters; it just doesn't seem that important to me.  During a medical appointment, an acupuncturist/meditation teacher once mentioned to me that he had been levitating.  I didn't ask for proof or question him in any way, and the conversation soon turned to other topics.  Had he really been levitating?  I don't know or much care.  He was a good acupuncturist and a good meditation teacher.  I knew because I felt the results of my time with him in my body.   

[Apech]

17 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

I don't put much energy into spotting fake masters; it just doesn't seem that important to me.  During a medical appointment, an acupuncturist/meditation teacher once mentioned to me that he had been levitating.  I didn't ask for proof or question him in any way, and the conversation soon turned to other topics.  Had he really been levitating?  I don't know or much care.  He was a good acupuncturist and a good meditation teacher.  I knew because I felt the results of my time with him in my body.   

 

"I have friends in high places."

"Hey master come down from the ceiling and stick some pins in me!"

[Taoist Texts]

3 hours ago, idiot_stimpy said:

What advice or tips would you give in order to help someone spot a fake master?/Someone saying they're enlightened when they really are not?\Is there anyway to actually tell?

easy-peasy. if he gives you whatever it is you paid for then he is "enlightened". and if you feel that you have been ripped off then he is fake.  easy, right?

44 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

I knew because I felt the results of my time with him in my body.   

to wit

 

Edited March 1 by Taoist Texts

[thelerner]

I don't mind fake masters, they're usually way more advanced than I am and can be good teachers.  I don't like being ripped off though, so I'm more concerned with watching my wallet.  

 

I don't believe in flawless humans or putting anyone too high up on a pedestal.  If someone's full of themselves I'll learn what I can, happy with one or two solid techniques and move on.  

[old3bob]

on the flip side a real master (as in enlightened) can easily spot us, more so when we are faking it; and it's more up to them than us if there is going to be a meeting...btw even an enlightened soul has to have a little bit of ego to have an interface in this world.

Edited March 1 by old3bob

[Maddie]

The best way to know if someone is a master is to sign up for my course on "who is a master" brought to you by self proclaimed and self taught grand master Maddie 

[steve]

5 hours ago, idiot_stimpy said:

What advice or tips would you give in order to help someone spot a fake master?

 

Someone saying they're enlightened when they really are not?

 

Is there anyway to actually tell?

 

On the one hand, there is no way to tell if someone is enlightened, or not. We may think we know but that is all projection. An enlightened master could lead us to believe whatever they feel is prudent in any given set of circumstances. On the other hand, anyone claiming they’re enlightened is not. Period. My opinion only, of course. 

 

Fake masters have a lot of tells. They tend not to show any vulnerability or admit mistakes. They often claim their way is the only or best way or that they know what’s best for others. They like fancy titles but don’t share who bestowed them, they often don’t reveal their lineage or teacher(s). They tend to talk more than listen and often like fancy clothes and trinkets and other external paraphernalia, often appropriated from other cultures, that helps sell their package. Their prices are often exorbitant compared to others. Their behavior outside of the teaching environment, how they treat others for example, especially when criticized, is often a dead giveaway. They tend to talk down about other styles or teachers, even about their own students. They like to put themselves on a pedestal and enjoy adoration. They get defensive and evasive when challenged. 

 

These are some things I’ve observed over the years in people who proved to be, or that I concluded (right or wrong) are fake or bad news.

[Unota]

I once read that nobody is truly a master. Everybody is always constantly learning. Sometimes you are the teacher, sometimes you're the student, blah blah blah.

I do personally think though, that the moment something you  have always done because you enjoy it, turns into the thing that you do for money, to make a living, it's no longer sincere.

Back when I was really struggling to get by, someone kept trying to tell me to go into Journalism, or to start publishing instead of writing as a hobby. I am not turning my feelings into a monthly tabloid, just to afford health insurance. I am going to hit you with a broom.

Anyway, my point is, charging crazy money for anything you have to teach is a red flag.

Edited March 1 by Unota

[The Biggest Nobody]

Your post appears to be a response to recent discussions, likely influenced by me. Therefore, I will first contribute then present my defense, given my frequent self-identification as a Master.
 

Identifying fake Masters involves scrutinizing those who promise results without transparency, often resorting to manipulative tactics. They often rely on their credentials and schooling rather than any honest merit. Their demeanor also speaks volumes; if they lack love for others and exhibit distasteful characteristics, their legitimacy to me is doubtful. Me personally, I do not care for their credentials or outstanding achievements; if they don't treat others humanely, I stop listening. 

Now on to my defense; responses in here present several methods to identify fake Masters, yet there's a notable lack of application of these said methods by those very people.

Reading through these comments leaves me quite indignant. While some offer effective methods of exposing false mastery, I have not been afforded the same luxury of these "filtering process". Despite labeling myself as a Master in specific mindful contexts, my ideas remain unchallenged, the "filtering process" being overshadowed by cheap personal attacks. 

Their claims of ego; I acknowledge having one.
My observations of intolerance and ad hominems beget dismissal and further hostility.
 

The hypocrisy is glaring, casting doubt on their character. It is unlikely anyone will acknowledge their past dishonest actions, nor will I expect them to. It is easier to cling to their belief that I am merely a joke, rather than engaging in an open-minded, intellectual discourse without the ad hominems. 
 

 

[oak]

5 hours ago, idiot_stimpy said:

What advice or tips would you give in order to help someone spot a fake master?

 

Someone saying they're enlightened when they really are not?

 

Is there anyway to actually tell?

 

Adding to some wise words written above, to me it's evident that It's more a matter of attracting a true master to my life, still in a physical body or not than looking outside for one. That will require sicere and honest efforts, that's all. The holy man in this world are very well distributed, no need to go to India or China. The other important point to me is that you will attract and understant what you are ready to receive. Yours or my next door neighbours can be the most enlightened people in the world and you or I may not be at the level of perceiving it, but we the teachings we are ready for will definately come to us if that is what we sincerely and honestly want.

[liminal_luke]

Claiming to be a "nobody" is fairly common in some spiritual circles.  Lots of folks do it, including some who seem very much like somebodies by my (admittedly questionable) standards.  Claiming to be "the biggest nobody" though -- wow, that's truly next level self-deprecating aggrandizement.  

 

I'm comfortable with my Bum name, Liminal Luke.  I've had it for years and to change now would confuse people unnecessarily.  Still, it's good to know that the title of Medium-Sized Nobody is still available.

[old3bob]

at some point we also have to ask ourselves how it is that many of us being more or less blind to the "mystical" (to use a term) can we see that which we can not normally see?  Although if one is blessed with mystic vision or lent such a boon then a great soul will appear as all golden radiant light or even be completely flooded with pure white light and those are telling and can not be faked.  On the other hand we can proclaim this or that master is fake even if we are not sure.   (many of the other things mentioned may be of use but not 100% revealing)

Edited March 1 by old3bob

[Maddie]

Sometimes before you get an answer you need to understand the question. So in this case the question would be "master of what"? Someone that is a master at baking will make the best baked goods. A master of archery will hit the bull's eye more than the average person. A master a life I suppose would live a happy and stress free life for the most part. So the question is master of what?

[old3bob]

19 minutes ago, Maddie said:

Sometimes before you get an answer you need to understand the question. So in this case the question would be "master of what"? Someone that is a master at baking will make the best baked goods. A master of archery will hit the bull's eye more than the average person. A master a life I suppose would live a happy and stress free life for the most part. So the question is master of what?

 

the OP did mention the context of "enlightened" and master together.

[Maddie]

15 minutes ago, old3bob said:

 

the OP did mention the context of "enlightened" and master together.

 

This would really be the same question though right? Enlightenment by who's definition? Enlightenment is an ambiguous word that means different things to different people. So what does the OP mean by Enlightenment? 

[Cobie]

7 hours ago, idiot_stimpy said:

… spot a fake master? … Is there anyway to actually tell?

 

sex and money

A real master does not have sex with you, full stop.

A real master does not demand much money, just the normal entertainer fees. 

 

 

[Apech]

5 minutes ago, Cobie said:

 

sex and money

A real master does not have sex with you, full stop.

A real master does not demand much money, just the normal entertainer fees. 

 

 

yes but what if sex is the entertainment? 

[Cobie]

@Apech I have put you on my ignored users list. 
 

 

Edited March 1 by Cobie

[old3bob]

47 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

This would really be the same question though right? Enlightenment by who's definition? Enlightenment is an ambiguous word that means different things to different people. So what does the OP mean by Enlightenment? 

 

well at this site (as has been repeated thousands of times)  most folks here usually mean spiritual enlightenment/liberation as in Buddhism, Taoism,  Hinduism and other spiritual ways, thus it seems your argument is apparently only for the sake of argument considering the common context that exists here?  

Edited March 1 by old3bob