Spotting a fake master

[liminal_luke]

6 hours ago, The Biggest Nobody said:

 I sometimes make things up in my head like it's reality.

 

No worries.  That happens to the best of us.

[Nungali]

13 hours ago, The Biggest Nobody said:

Sorry I admit to be a bit deranged. I sometimes make things up in my head like it's reality.

 

Thats okay ..... we already realized that , by the way .     

[Dedicated]

On 03/03/2024 at 9:44 PM, idiot_stimpy said:

 

What makes you say that

Quiet about it at the very least

[Dedicated]

On 04/03/2024 at 2:26 AM, liminal_luke said:

 

He's come up in conversation before, and not always in a strictly negative way.

I had a tape of music of his before I knew anything about him. It had a recording of crickets I thought was utterly delightful. I enjoy d the company of Sannyasin's before I knew they were followers of Osho. But then I was told to steer clear. Years later I could appreciate what a true guru is, and one is to become the beloved of an older person whom has lost their partner

[idiot_stimpy]

There are many modes in which the truth can be spoken. Osho was quite eccentric but nonetheless I believe he spoke his truth.

 

I have enjoyed listening to oshos teachings and don't consider him to be a fake master. Master, being the ability to point those to their true minds nature.

[old3bob]

some might want to do more research on a master manipulator! 

 

"...Earlier this year, after much deliberation and consultation with close friends and family, Erin chose to go public with her story on the A Little Bit Culty podcast. Immediately, once it aired, she was viciously attacked and harassed, verbally, in writing, and in public, by loyal Rajneeshis because she spoke of the abuse of the children. This is, in part, what led me to read Lily Dunn’s book. That book validated everything Erin spoke about and more. The sexual abuse started with Rajneesh. He created that perverse culture, and it was expressed throughout all his communes worldwide. Lily’s father, among all the many pedophiles, was attracted to Rajneesh’s communities because of the elevation of sexual freedom and self-satisfaction, minus any healthy moral compass. So, please, think twice before you post an Osho quote on social media."  © 2022 Janja Lalich

Edited March 5 by old3bob

[Nungali]

11 hours ago, idiot_stimpy said:

There are many modes in which the truth can be spoken. Osho was quite eccentric but nonetheless I believe he spoke his truth.

 

I have enjoyed listening to oshos teachings and don't consider him to be a fake master. Master, being the ability to point those to their true minds nature.

 

 

But  but ... Osho himself said he was  a fake master !  Just after he broke his years long vow of silence  .

 

I went with Sanyasin friends to their center to watch the release of the video from USA when it arrived in Oz .

 

Q ;  " You said there have only been two  enlightened masters recently , you and Krishnamurti , why do you say that ? "

 

A ( Osho )  :  '  Krishnamurti was very honest , his peers tried to make him the world guru but when he gave his awaited message to the world he said there is no guru , I am not your guru, you have to be your own guru and to teach you this lesson I now refuse to be your guru and walk away , and he did .  But people still didnt learn that . I come with the same message , I say the same thing  BUT I will not walk away but play the guru ... to teach you a lesson about such foolishness. "

 

and the people laughed at his 'wit' , the people watching the video laughed at his 'wit ' , my friends did too. I sat there astounded .

 

Osho admonished them , they laughed more. Osho called them idiots . They laughed even more .

 

Then Osho told the questioner ; "look how stupid they are "   and mimed with his hands and a stupid vacant smile  that they all should sway and dance , they all did . Then he mimed 'stop' and looked angry at them , and they all froze in position , then he mimed dance and they did, then stop  and they did  and after numerous cycles of this mindlessness  he turned to the questioner and said 'See they have become mindless idiots ."   people in vid laughed , people watching vid laughed ,  my friends laughed .

 

Osho ; " I am being serious ! "

 

They laughed more .  MY God , what a strange experience it was sitting in that room . I wonder what became of that video , is it still extant or did the latter people that took things over destroy the evidence ?

 

here we have a case of a fake master  *  admitting he was a fake master to expose the whole thing , but he underestimated the people's  (   who 'are retarded'  ... remember )  attachment and blindness .

 

* oh yes, wisdom was involved ... he quoted a lot of others wisdom ,  and he had a reasonable 'spin' on things , he also had a background in psychology 

[silent thunder]

People seem to seek out a hero to worship, and a villain to despise.  I suspect it has something to do with coming to know our own true nature through the process of neti neti... I come to realize my nature by comparing it to what i think i am not.  That has been how it came to attention in my own process anyway.

 

Often the role also seems to be the same person over time... and also whether or not the person seeks such attention.  After all, get to know any person well enough and we'll inevitably find aspects of them that we do not relish, or actively dislike.  That's more than reason enough to leap from worship to hazing for most it seems.

 

Pedestalize and worship a person.  Build them up^{with or without their consent} through grand praise and shared stories until an egregore of sorts arises around the reified mental object of the person in the minds of 'the followers'.  The mental object having little to do with the actual person; yet followers will swear by the reality of it and through their dedication and passion of pursuit, it takes on an inertia of its own... or of their own. 

 

Even when the hero tries to assuage notions of sainthood or grand achievement, it seems to only fuel the worship more... such is life.  Folks will find something, someone to pedestalize.  They seem to need it.  I'm reminded of @Brian and the film he takes his avatar from... The Pythons had their finger on the pulse of this very process when they crafted that film.

 

And then the inevitable shift occurs and the high of the worship becomes the even more adrenaline pumped fuel of vitriol and hate when the shift to villain takes place.

 

This game plays out in varying degrees in the media every day with all public personas... but within the more closed systems of dedicated spiritual pursuants... it becomes highly intensified.

 

Such is life.

Edited March 6 by silent thunder
added the bit about brian

[Master Logray]

On 3/5/2024 at 6:32 PM, idiot_stimpy said:

There are many modes in which the truth can be spoken. Osho was quite eccentric but nonetheless I believe he spoke his truth.

 

I have enjoyed listening to oshos teachings and don't consider him to be a fake master. Master, being the ability to point those to their true minds nature.

 

I think so.  A fake master is different from a fallen master.

[steve]

On 3/3/2024 at 5:30 AM, Dedicated said:

I doubt there are people on this site interested in Osho

 

When I began to explore Daoist teachings, I found them somewhat impenetrable. Knowing nothing about Osho, I stumbled across his book, When the Shoe Fits: Stories of the Taoist Mystic Chuang-Tzu, and found it to be enormously helpful in beginning to decipher Zhuangzi’s teachings. Osho’s teachings were insightful and had their own unique flavor which I enjoyed and appreciated. Unfortunately, I think he failed miserably as a spiritual guide for his community. I recommend watching Wild Country for anyone interested in what happened to his community in Oregon.

[old3bob]

a yogi (who may have developed some powers) is not considered a Sat guru although they are supposed to be on the way ..there are only a few Sat guru's while there are thousands ("x" times whatever number?) of yogi's at several different levels in different schools, also if a yogi attains complete Self Realization they may still have "yogi" as part of their name but with their greater attainment comes recognition beyond the level of a yogi.  A Sat guru in the complete meaning of that term has gone past the point of no return, namely they can no longer return to egotistic ways which can lead to falling or turning fake.  (Btw. some people may co-opt the term yogi or  Sat guru but not be so, thus being fake from the beginning.)  Impressionable folks may cross paths with a certain yogi and mistakenly think they have found a true guru when in fact a yogi (in a traditional position) is often or is a helper for a true guru of a true school.

Edited March 6 by old3bob

[liminal_luke]

We tend to want people to be all good or all bad but most of us, even those of us who teach, are a jumble.  I try not to let people's "bad" qualities distract me from their "good" ones.

Edited March 6 by liminal_luke

[silent thunder]

Great points about fake versus fallen.  And not throwing the baby out with the bath water with the undesirable aspects of some we encounter or even follow for a time.

 

Again I'm re-minded of the realization that when one is present and listening all of life becomes a teacher.  Not just humans.  Everything and non things as well.

 

But among human teachers... Even a fake or poor teacher can and has taught me much of value over the years.  Often not perhaps what they intended to offer, or were even aware they were imparting, but valuable on my path none the less.

Edited March 6 by silent thunder
clarity

[Neirong]

On 01.03.2024 at 2:34 PM, idiot_stimpy said:

Someone saying they're enlightened when they really are not?

 

Is there anyway to actually tell?

It is impossible to hide accumulation if it exists. People who go to the gym, possess different kind of a body compared to a regular person who does limited to no physical activity.

The same thing is true with energy and upper mental bodies. Spiritual and mental development can be measured and evaluated, usually it does not require more than a glance to see through the general level.

[idiot_stimpy]

2 hours ago, Neirong said:

It is impossible to hide accumulation if it exists. People who go to the gym, possess different kind of a body compared to a regular person who does limited to no physical activity.

The same thing is true with energy and upper mental bodies. Spiritual and mental development can be measured and evaluated, usually it does not require more than a glance to see through the general level.

 

How does one at a glance see energy and upper mental bodies? Is this some type of ESP almost everyone does not have?

[old3bob]

no, you don't need any special power to see or feel a lie or a truth, your intuition should tell you a lot, and if for whatever reason it doesn't tell you much then also use some of the other insights on healthy signposts that people have listed.

[Nungali]

7 hours ago, steve said:

 

When I began to explore Daoist teachings, I found them somewhat impenetrable. Knowing nothing about Osho, I stumbled across his book, When the Shoe Fits: Stories of the Taoist Mystic Chuang-Tzu, and found it to be enormously helpful in beginning to decipher Zhuangzi’s teachings. Osho’s teachings were insightful and had their own unique flavor which I enjoyed and appreciated. Unfortunately, I think he failed miserably as a spiritual guide for his community. I recommend watching Wild Country for anyone interested in what happened to his community in Oregon.

 

One of the people i went to see that film with worked in the kitchen there  .... he got freaked out by a few incidents of having to  trash the food for a large number of people, clean everything and start again ..... food 'contamination'   . .....  somehow .

[Neirong]

7 hours ago, idiot_stimpy said:

How does one at a glance see energy and upper mental bodies? Is this some type of ESP almost everyone does not have?

Nothing special, it comes with training. Like many other abilities.
If you don't develop any skills/abilities after years of commitment and daily practice, then you should change teachers/move schools.
Empty "spirituality" talks and self-learning can only get so far.

[idiot_stimpy]

1 hour ago, Neirong said:

Nothing special, it comes with training. Like many other abilities.
If you don't develop any skills/abilities after years of commitment and daily practice, then you should change teachers/move schools.
Empty "spirituality" talks and self-learning can only get so far.

 

My personal practice is not specifically training for skills/abilities but I do see them as a by-product of advancement along the path.

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

5 hours ago, idiot_stimpy said:

 

My personal practice is not specifically training for skills/abilities but I do see them as a by-product of advancement along the path.

The key thing is to actually practice. Many people just talk about concepts or philosophy but do not do any actual practice then act like they have achieved something. 

[thelerner]

On 3/6/2024 at 8:59 AM, steve said:

 

When I began to explore Daoist teachings, I found them somewhat impenetrable. Knowing nothing about Osho, I stumbled across his book, 

Today in a library's book store.  They were selling for a buck, Osho's book of Zen.  Looked inside, pop culture view but not bad.  Fake and fallen.. these guys self destruct and hopefully don't take too many followers with them.  

 

that said.. due to some combo of psychology, conmanship and good writing they can produce some imo good insights**.   Some baby but the bath waters poisonous.  

 

**Obviously controversial but I put CC into this category.  

[old3bob]

Alan Watts made some useful bridges for me in understanding Eastern ways...and it was also said that he drank a lot and whatever else against some of those eastern teachings. 

[steve]

20 hours ago, thelerner said:

Obviously controversial but I put CC into this category.

 

Sorry,  who is CC?

[thelerner]

1 hour ago, steve said:

 

Sorry,  who is CC?

Who indeed. Carlos Castaneda.  <so famous, the spell checker corrected me, then corrected me again on the word spell checker>   

I read him when I was younger.  Enjoyed his spiritual/adventure writings, great author for opening up the mind to the esoteric.  Certainly nowhere near as bad as Osho but kinda belongs, imo, in a similar category.  

[Nungali]

On 3/7/2024 at 9:22 PM, -ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ- said:

The key thing is to actually practice. Many people just talk about concepts or philosophy but do not do any actual practice then act like they have achieved something. 

 

Yep .  I noticed that in martial arts club ;  (to me ) " How do you do that / know that ? etc "   It seemed strange to me that they did not / could not .

Me; " You guys do practice  solo and with others outside of these sessions, dont you ?"

Them :   " Errrrrr ..... "

 

And also , over 40 years back  when I was a councilor  in the Baha'is , even a newby, I noticed some 'old members' where  'misbehaving ' ( allowing ego and arguments into council )  ; me ; " Have you guys been doing your daily practice and prayers ?"

Them ; " Errrrr .... "

 

 

And of course the biggest lesson in this one is my own failing in this regard ; only two days back I re -  implemented a daily practice I should have been doing  , which I have been neglecting ... and things got 'messy ' .

 

Edited March 8 by Nungali